The Tactical Equivalent and Friends

[Schlitzaf]

The “Tactical Tax”, with release of every Astartes Book now. I can feel good doing the math now for 9th Edition. Space Marines have alot of commonalities, one of the ever true statements is the “Tactical” Squad of which multiple variations exist.

Ignoring the squads that are secretly Elite Squad (Cult Troops, Strike Squads, DW Veteran Squads, etc): They are the following.

Legionaires (Chaos Space Marine)

Tactical Squad

Grey Hunter Pack

Bloodclaw Pack

Crusader Squad (Firstborn & Primaris)

Intercessor Squad (Reg, Assault and call out to Gravis)

This thread/post will look at each of these squads at 90-140 and 180+ Point.

Starting from the top 90-100 Points:

(Winners)

Legionary Squads: 18ppm. Best Statline only downside is “bad” shooting if kitted to pewpew (Rapid 1 Bolter). Can take 1 Heavy Weapon to make up for that however.

Intercessor (Assault): Just solid cheap units, good at they do. Not hyper impressive statline but not a bad one. Lack a fundamental flexibility of Firstborn Tactical Style Squads. Their ability to double fight lets them hit above their paygrade

Crusader Squad (Firstborn) - Do a Chainsword loadout with a heavy weapon makes a good solid support thay can fight off bullies and contributes.

Grey Hunters - Can do Bolter + Chainsword for flexibility, similar to Chaos Marines. Lack however a Heavy Weapon for Range.

Blood Claws & Assault Cessors - Chainsword equipped, cheap, solid mid field support. While generating alot of attacks.

Intercessors - Better than Tacticals but a whole ton of nothing. Their best loadout is outshined by the output of 1 Firstborn Heavy (GravCannon/Chaincannon). And don’t have AP in melee. So while flexibilitt to do both because Primaris statline they do it worse than Hunters/Crusaders/Legionairs while lacking firepower. 

Tacticals - Can Take a Heavy Weapon. Otherwise a whole ton of nothing actively bad.

Honorable mentions:

Assault Squads & Raptor. When last Niphi adjustments quite solid units. Bringing Speed, Firepower, and solid support into the game. Blood Angels espacially. Skyclaws do similar well for similar reasons espacially to Blood Angel ones.

The various Marine Biker Squads exist, Chaos ones are one of the stronger options. They have the ability to take a cool special weapons and keep chainswords. 

120-160 Points:

Winners:

Legionaires: the Output flexibility once again wins. Take a Heavy & Smite then add 1-2 more Legionares for flavor. Flexibility of loadout really shines here. And you can add a chaos icon for another chapter tactic.

Grey Hunters: These squads make up for the lack of smite by adding a Special Weapon on Sgt (2 Incase of Grey Hunters semse Reg Pack Leader + Wolf Gaurd allow 2 Cool Weapons, you can also unlock another “Chapter” (Wolf Banner). An afford 2 more marines if desired. 

Crusaders: Can add 2-4 more models to the squad but their biggest thing is the addition of Neophytes makes them one of the more defensive options here with Smokescreen and allows good flexibility.

Bloodclaws: Add more Cool Weapons at larger points value. And alot more tactics. As well around 2 more models. Squad scales well. 

Assault Intercessors: Lose Ground due to fact they don’t scale well here and that going above 5 for Transhuman Hurts.

Gravis Intercessors: Exist. They don’t particularly do anything well. Not achievable by an above option. Main advantage immunity to small arm and hellfire access. 

Intercessors: More Models more Fire Power, flexibility.

Tactical: Arguably better than Intercessors but scale poorly here and don’t anything to improve durability.

Honorable Mentions:

See prior discussion of Assault Marines, Raptors and Bike Squads.

Outriders now exist as a fast version of Assault Intercessors. But that all they going for them.

180+ Points:

Primaris Crusader Squad - Base Squad  has 2 Power Fists, and Power Weapon. Acceptable Shooting can advance or chainswords. The gold standard of efficiency. Scales incredible well. While doesn’t get more cool weapons until 20 man. As a squad it almost always worth the points. While nomjnally less durable a clever player can work around.

Legionary Squads: 2 Heavy Weapons, Smite and Chainswords. While clocking in at 200+ Points. Gives ability to project fire power and remain combat relavent. Even going Bolters is still a good option. You also have additional Plasma Pistols, and another chapter trait from icons if desired.

Grey Hunters: Flexibility, with Chainswords & Bolters, 3.5 Special Ranged Weapons. 2 Cool Melee + Plasma. You also have “another” tactic via Wolf Banner. And finally potemtislly a 1+/4++ or 2+/5+ from a Pack Leader. Giving powerful immunity to small arms fire power.

Blood Claws: Alot that can be said for Grey Hunters apply here minus range flexibility. The squad scales well as well. With Berserk Charge you ger alot of attacks. Its main downside unlocking additional specials at 15 man.

Assault Intercessor: Just a good 10 Man beat squad for double fighting. Its relatively cheap, does however lack the number of special weapon options as other squads on the list.

(Firstborn) Crusader Squad: Even at 10 Man, a good neo/init mix keeps the squad cheap. With Heavy Weapon and Double Special can project firepower well. Having multiple melee for those who go that way is nice. Neo’s even at 1w help keep the squad nice and large.

Intercessors (Gravis/Reg): Not much elss to say but pretty actively do nothing. They can dbl shoot in the case of regs but that pricely for what you get out of them. And if taken better keeping the squads small as you aren’t taking them midfield where you need the additional bodies.

Tactical Squads: Don’t Scale Well, they cannot take more bodies. Have limited number of special “options”. Don’t have more defensive options avaliable. A whole of nothing.

Honorable Mentions

Assault Marine: High Special Weapon Ratio but 2 of those are Eviscerators. Squad only somewhay scales well above 5 man.  Skyclaws for Wolves and Assault Marines for BA are espacially better at just 2 5 Man.

Raptors even more so given they lack evis or any real reasom to not be 5 man.

Biker Squads; fast moving Gravis Cessors with AP’d Weapons. Not much else to say.

 

Comments? Criticism? How you guys finding your tactical tax?

Edited July 3, 2022 by Schlitzaf
Formating

[Captain Idaho]

I find my Tactical squads effective to be honest. The extra firepower from heavy weapons is decent enough that they don't feel wasted holding objectives.

Their bolters are weak though I do find my dice rolling means the heavy weapons do nothing and the bolters score wounds - typical! 

I actually rate Tacticals above Intercessors just for the heavy weapons. Intercessor bolters don't bother me as a Marines player and I'd rather deal with them than my friend's Grey Hunters.

Bikes I think are something I need to add to my army. Firstborn Codex Space Marine Bikes with Chainswords, double special and combi special are actually pretty potent at 3 wounds a piece and hunting objectives.

Edited July 3, 2022 by Captain Idaho

[Schlitzaf]

Loyalist Biker, Idaho cannot do Special/Chainswords unlike Chaos Bikes. Sense they replace Chainsword with their Special (Chaos Bikers however do not). If Loyalist Bikes could I’d rate them higher. 

And yeah mathwise 1 Heavy Weapon = (well slightly worse) 15 ABR/10 BR/5 Stalker Shots. Biggest reasons Tacticals “Lose” to Intercessors. Intercessor have a tad more flexibility w/ 2 Base Attacks.

[Captain Idaho]

Oh yeah sorry I was making the assumption people could see the unit in my head. I was clumsily talking about a unit 5-6 strong with Chainswords on the dudes without specials.

I know Internet wisdom doesn't like anything bar minimum units sometimes, but I like the unit to have some staying power.

As melee... yeah Tacticals suck in melee big time. But Intercessors aren't much better. It's not where I want either to be really.

[BLACK BLΠFLY]

A five man tactical squad with plasmagun, combi-plasma and powerfist seems viable to me.

[XeonDragon]

I've found a tactical squad with a grav cannon and chainsword on the sergeant (sometimes with a storm bolter or combi-plasma if points allow) a very effective home-objective camper. The shooting output of a tactical squad with grav cannon is about the same or better than intercessors, but combat a bit less. I used to take one all the time when I played BF/WWOR RG successors. Now I am BH/WWOR, less so.

Despite that, I've also found that a tactical squad with heavy weapon coming down in a drop-pod with a devastator squad makes a great way to take an objective by shooting to death with melta shots and then getting obsec units onto it :) I've also had success (only 2 games so far) with a squad of company veterans with combi-meltas and power fists and a squad of tactical marines with a combi-melta and power fist pm the sergeant and multi-melta drop down, shoot, charge, flip the objective. No easy comparison for primaris. 

I think tactical squads are still valid, not en-masse, but at least 1 squad for home objectives or 1 squad to use via a drop pod with or, in some lists and for some chapters, with a razorback or two to take objectives. They are still the cheapest ob-sec we can get, at 90 points for a unit and with interesting and fast delivery options, so they have that going for them :) 

 

Edited July 4, 2022 by XeonDragon

[Schlitzaf]

Fair, but you realize all other firstborn tacticals save Grey Hunters and Blood Claws can do an that too? And while what you are saying is good is it better than ABR Intercessors or Assault Intercessors. 

[MegaVolt87]

Razorback is far too expensive, may as well grab a vindicator or preadator for a few more points instead. Legionaries took so many cuts to their options, best use for them is to juice them for melee, thats about all they are good for now. Grey hunters are still amazing by virtue of chainsword + bolter combo. Tacs can MSU with the old reliable las/plas. Any primaris troop unit has its place and can fit a list, probably the best slot they rule in to for me as troops. 

[Karhedron]

Razorbacks are actually not bad for their points. You can get a squad + character where they are going and then provide decent fire support without using up a Heavy slot. The Twin Assault Cannon variant is my preferred option and generates a lot of dakka for the points. The same points will get you a Baal predator with 1 more wound but it has no Transport capacity and uses up a Heavy slot. You can add heavy bolters to the Baal I guess but I have found my Razorbacks useful.

I normally run them in pairs with some Dreadnoughts to take the heat. Armour of Contempt has taken some of the shine off the Assault Cannons I must admit but I will see how they perform. Not everyone gets AoC and those assault cannons will still chew up lighter infantry very nicely. RBs are not powerhouses but they offer some nice flexibility. They can get your squad where it is going faster. It can offer some decent firepower. It is a metal box with 10 T7 wounds that gets AoC so can block LOS or soak overwatch if your Marines want to charge something shooty.

[Kallas]

6 hours ago, MegaVolt87 said:

Razorback is far too expensive, may as well grab a vindicator or preadator for a few more points instead.

3 hours ago, Karhedron said:

Razorbacks are actually not bad for their points.

Yeah, especially if we're talking LasBacks - compared to a Predator Annihilator, which is (currently, for Loyalists) only +1W, for +30pts more, and uses up a Heavy Support slot, the current Loyalist Predator is not worth taking compared to a LasBack when they have exactly the same shooting output (bar sponsons, which raise the cost) except the LasBack does stuff the Predator cannot (ie, transport relatively fragile troops).

A LasBack with a Tactical squad is a good little 'unit' - they can support each other, and the Razorback covers, literally, the Tacticals from fire until they destroy it, so they can shelter on an otherwise exposed position (eg, an objective).

Assault Cannons are still useable - yes, AoC degrades their performance, but there are plenty of non-AoC armies out there, such as Tyranids, Eldar (and Harlequins, but they don't care about any AP so...) and probably Guard at some point soon.

[Schlitzaf]

So would anyone change my rating for order of “strongness”? Or add another honorable option

[Schlitzaf]

Have had time to do some math: for my sanity I am ONLY focusing on:

Tactical Squad

Legionaires

Crusader Squad (Primaris & Firstborn)

Grey Hunter

Blood Claw

Intercessor (Assault, Gravis & Regular)

90-100 Point Squad Squad Loadout: Cheapest Loadouts

Firstborn Tactical Chassis Squad: 90 Points. No frills. Four squads are relavent here:

(Firstborn) Crusaders

Tactical

Grey Hunter

Legionaires

IF YOU ARE JUST going BolterBro 90 Man Tax Squad. Legionaires then Tactical Squad is the best. The squads (firstborn) are otherwise mathmatically identical, except for the follpwing Legionaires now have more base combat attack, Tactical has Melta Bombs and/or higher Leadership than Hunters or Crusaders.

Going beyond the literal naked dudebro. The intercessor squads and the squads noted above. First: Crusaders & Legionaires can both do 5 Man w/ Heavy Weapon. So the tactical squad ability to do so, does not make the squad better than its counterparts. Whom are both tactically more flexible (with ability to take chainswords for actual AP).

And just for reference a GravCannon does 1.32/1.78 wounds vs Sub T5 Units before saves are rolled. And 3 “Bolter/Chainsword” stat shots do you 1 wounds vs MeQ.

The base tactical squad has 4 GravCannon Shots (0.88/1.2 wounds vs Marines and 21 S4 Rapid + charge) at 100. They lack the flexibility of other squads. With bolter options. Ironically they have more melee bolter attacks than ranged ones. 

Legionaires will have around (0.8/1.18 (Chaincannon) + 24 Bolter Shots). Most well rounded squad, with regardless of setup has a good number of melee and shooting. I think Bolter variation is best due to having 3 base attacks. 

BT Crusaders will have same stats as Tacticals but can Chainsword or Bolters.  Chainswords will do more in extended engagements. This gives them a bit more flexibility, espacially in the midfield, where they can contribute better.

Grey Hunters still iffy here compared, they lack heavy options and 2nd Sgt puts them over. With there setup they are closer to Intercessors than other firstborn tactical chassis units. Like Legionaires; Grey Hunter with their bolter + chainsword gives them very strong mid field flexibility. They have around 24 Bolter Shots + 1 Special Weapon. 

Bloodclaw: 90-100 Has lower leadership than assault cessors but can take a power fist caddie for 5 points less. 21 Bolter levels and 4 Power Fists or 5 more Chainsword level attacks. Same number of raw attacks as Assault Cessors on the charge but cheaper.

Intercessors (Regular). At 100 points you get a sizable number of attacks, stalker, bolt rifle or auto bolt. Autobolt is likely best with 31 bolter shots. But the 5 stalker option shooting is roughly the same as having a GravCannon. A solid midfield unit whom can contribute to the game and be specialized your army. Also can take Aux launchers for flavor.

Intercessor (Assault). 95 to 105, they have 26 Bolter shots heavily skewed to melee. But of all the units here. All of there shots have a base AP -1. Which is not true for the other options. They are a good sgt relic caddie due to cost and have transhuman, alongside other Primaris Strats. 

220+ (250) Points:

Now at the cheapest variation it should be noted that all Tactical Chassis are more or less the same. While there are nuances, especially with some having no heavy access and others do. The squads are not that variable. Here where their main differences.

Tactical Squad: Clocking in around 210-220 points depending on other gear. The Tactical Squad has 24 Bolter Shots, 3 Power Weapons, 4 Special Weapon Shots, and 1 Heavy Weapon. Many ways the weakest by of the rest of the chassis, inflexibility (strategically and tactically, shoe horned into a shooting & midfield role) but also cheapest with toys. Its two main advantages are ability to Combat Squad and Melta Bombs. It lacks specialization or gimmicks of other options.

Legionaires: Legionares are around 240-260 points. You have 7 Power Weapon Attacks (3 Heavy Chain Ax + Champ Power Weapon), a Secondary Chapter Tactic (Icon + Mark) and up to 2 Special or Heavy Weapons of your choice. Chaincannons, Heavy Bolter and Autocannon. 10 Man strong, but can be more durable due to nurgle or tzeenchiain. Additionally with Grimore they have smite. 36 Bolter Level Attacks, 7 Power Weapons, 1 Smite and 2 Heavy Weapon or Special. As a squad they are also very flexible for melee or pewpew. They also can be even with bolters due to good base attack be tactically flexibile and strategically so in list building.

Crusader Squad (Firstborn); 13-15 man, 230-250 points. Can be geared for melee or ranged. With Dbl Power Weapon and Dbl Special, or Special/Special/Heavy. With vows it mitigates the 1a power weapon somewhat. But I’ll focus on Heavy/DblSpecial. You have 2 Special Weapons (often 4 attacks) and 1 Heavy Weapon (GravCannon). You have around 12-15 models depending on ratio of Inits to Neos. 40 Bolter Bolter attacks + 2 Specials + 1 Heavy + 3 Power Weapon. With Smokescreen + Chainsword squad reasonable midfield hut its mostly outshined by the other option for Templars.  Its flexibile strategically but not so much tactically given the fact only a paltry base 1 attack given chainswords are properly best loadout meaning you lack far ranged firepower.

Crusader Squad (Primaris): 230-260 points. Looking at around 13-15 Points. You have 6 Power Fist attcks or Pyreblasters and 4 Power Weapon Attacks. Then you have in 55-66 Bolter attacks depending on armaments. It has one the most raw wound count of the various options. And stratgically flexible given you can modify it in listbuilding stage to be what you desire. Tactically it can be also flexible espacially with the ABR Loadout. Just a very solid squad overall. Furthermore they have Transhuman and other Primaris Strategems.

Grey Hunters: 240-260. 10-11 Man Strong. They have 6 Power Fist Attacks, can have 1 Plasma Pistol, 2 Special Weapons (Grav Guns are cheapest but can take), incredible tactical flexible (Chainsword + Bolters), 50 Bolter Level Attacks, and secondary chapter tactic (Wolf Banner). With Wolf Gaurd Pack Leader they can have a durable, tanker model for higher AP if desire. Definetely on more expensive end of the Tactical Chassis. They lack strategically flexiblity given no heavy weapon, so pigeoned into being midfield fire units. 

Blood Claws: 240-260 points. 12-14 man. You have 7 Power Fist Attacks, the option to take a Terminator or SShield Armored tanker unit. 56 Bolter Levels from the unit and can have up to 2 Special Weapons. Stratagically and Tactical inflexible, but very cheap very good at what it does.

Intercessors (Regular): 220-230 Points depending. 50-60 Bolter or 10 Stalker Bolters, 7 Bolter or 2 Krak Shot, 4 Power Fist. Have Combat Squad, Dbl Shoot Strat alongside THP and other Primaris Strategems access. Rolewise they are basically same roles as Legionaire, Grey Hunter or (Primaris) Crusader Squads. They have good midfield flexible. Inflexible strategically. In terms of midfield firefight they are cheapest “geared” out. But No Gear Hunters, Primaris Crusaders or Legionaires are cheaper are ultimately similarly effective.

Intercessors (Assault): 200 Points. The absolute cheapest geared out, with just a Power Fist. And due to Primaris statline even “No Gear” Hunters, Primaris Crusaders and Legionaires given somewhat run for there money. Have access to dbl fight stratagem and other Primaris Strats, alongside combat squad. Strategically and Tactically inflexible but still a solid unit, putting out 45 Bolter attacks and 4 Power Fist. And for those loyalist chapters with dedicated tactical replacements it retains a niche. But Primaris Crusaders for templars are mostly still better while Wolves have Blood Claws for similar but cheaper. Whom put out appreciably similar attacks for cheaper while having more Power Weapon attacks.

Gravis Cessors: 230-260. Wound count wise they are worse than Firstborn whom are roughly 9 points a wound but better than other Primaris whom are 10. But have an extra toughness. They don’t have Power Weapon options. And their ranged fire power beside unlocking hellfire for Primaris. Isn’t that much better than bogstandard Cessor Chassis. They number around 7-8 models. Bringing 1 Heavy Weapon, and slightly above 11-21 Bolter Shots + 22-25 Normal Bolter Shots.

Conclusion: Naked Tactical Chassis Tax Units are not that drastically different. But some tend to be surperior just do to more options (Crusader and Legionaires) or simply more tactically flexibility (Grey Hunters, Legionaire or RegCessors). Sometimes simply being cheap caddies with large attack counts (BloodClaws, Legionares and Assault Cessors), to help them stand out. Of them the Legionaires are the best for filling all 3 potential naked cheap tactical niches. Generic Tactical Squads in comparison don’t offer anything the other variations do beside Melta Bombs.

Once you get 10+ Man Geared out. You can get cheap large squads with high attack (Crusaders (both variations), BloodClaws, and to an extent Assault Cessors). You also have squads with flexibility of engagement tactically (Legionares, Crusaders (Primaris), Intercessors (Normal), and Grey Hunters). Or conversely have squads being able to specialized and provide solid fire support (Crusaders (Firstborn), Legionaires, Tactical, Cessors (Gravis)) on a strategic list building level.

Of these options several often do it better. For midfield flexibility, Crusaders (Primaris), Grey Hunters and Legionaires lead the way. While for high attack for cheap, Blood Claws and then Assault Cessors. Fire supporting you have Legionaires and Crusaders (Firstborn) whom can take high damage ranged weaponry while supporting in a pinch in melee. 

Durability, you have high toughness or stats (Gravis and Wolf Special Troops), special rules (Legionaires, Crusaders (All), and Primaris Troops), and then larger squad sizes (Crusaders (both), and Blood Claws). All in all, the various tactical level troops are not unbalanced between each other. Each has their own nuance and advantages they can play too. Generic Tacticals here specifically (I emphasis) suffer however simply because they lack gimmicks of other squads.

They simply don’t offer something the other squads cannot but better (except melta bombs and for firstborn combat squading).

[UnkyHamHam]

Here's hoping Tactical Squads get a similar treatment to Legionaires in the next codex.

Almost half of every chapter (pre primaris) is made up of Tac marines. I'd really like to see them given rules to justify their premier position as the go-to most "tactically" flexible unit in the Astartes arsenal, and the justified backbone of the Chapter's fighting strength. 

I've got a thousand ideas, and have posted before many of them, on how to spice up Tacs, and Assault and Dev squads as well.  But I won't repost unless there is interest. 

But needless to say they need something. Probably multiple somethings. Legionaires are now justifiably scary and versatile with their different specialists, extra attacks, and even a psychic power! 

I've always wanted to have Tacticals and Intercessors balanced on a scale of simplicity vs versatility.  Like Intercessors are tooled for one job, and their game play is straight forward. But Tacticals can be slimmed down for cheap obsec, or tooled up to support a role/mission. Like grabbing meta for anti armor, or grabbing plasma/grav and thinning enemy elites in support of more specialist troops. 

I think Schlitzaf has shown mathematically that Tacs don't really have a place. And now in the plentiful era of all the various primaris troops, it's really hard to justify them outside of narrative play or very niche and risky tactics. 

[Captain Idaho]

Only if you play with just mathematics in mind to be fair. I'm not saying Tacticals are great, but since getting 2 wounds they've done great for me at the job of holding objectives whilst still providing a few shots a turn with a cheap heavy weapon. Heavy bolters granting access to Hellfire Shells whilst holding that objective, or a Grav Cannon plinking off a couple wounds from a target.

There's more than just cost at play I'd say.

[BLACK BLΠFLY]

The second wound has made quite a difference for sure.

[UnkyHamHam]

Sorry, I'm definitely not trying to down play their improvements. No doubt that the extra wound has made them playable, just not very interesting. 

I think more can be done tho. A single melta bomb strat or hellfire strat doesn't really help 3+ tac squads. And of course if you take grav Cannon you lose hellfire versatility. 

I just think they need to be, well more tactical honestly. I agree with your assessment, Captain Idaho, that there's more to it than mathing out wounds per point.  But Tacs are kind of a trap at the moment with most of their options not worth it. 

[Captain Idaho]

It's just, 100pts on 5 Primaris Intercessors isn't considered a waste of a Troops slot, yet 5 Tacticals with Heavy Bolter/Grav Cannon is considered wasteful.

They're pretty similar in output, with the Tacticals having slightly better shooting, exactly the same bolter output vs Armour of Contempt, with some utility using certain Strategums.

[BLACK BLΠFLY]

I like 5 man tact squad with plasmagun and combi-plasma.

[UnkyHamHam]

Well to be fair I think arguments of being a waste vs having an impact are different metrics. I also, find the Primaris troops to be fairly boring as well. So maybe I'm just not the right person to stake an opinion here.  I will do some more thinking and come back to this topic. 

 

[Schlitzaf]

4 hours ago, Captain Idaho said:

It's just, 100pts on 5 Primaris Intercessors isn't considered a waste of a Troops slot, yet 5 Tacticals with Heavy Bolter/Grav Cannon is considered wasteful.

They're pretty similar in output, with the Tacticals having slightly better shooting, exactly the same bolter output vs Armour of Contempt, with some utility using certain Strategums.

Intercessors are more tactically flexible. And Tacticals are just worse than Crusader Squads and Legionaires. I personally prefer for backfield camping a GravCannon Crusader Squad (Firstborn) w/ 4 Chainswords over 5 Intercessors. Which is what I am saying

[Captain Idaho]

I get that Intercessors have an extra attack per man, so in a pinch can help out especially if it's rubbish troops in melee vs rubbish troops.

It's just every tournament I've ever been too sees troops on objectives shot dead rather than anything.

The practical over the theoretical, if you will.

[Tokugawa]

Five plaguemarines with SIX pieces of special weapons are: 105pts.

 

After seeing that, I decided to keep minimium investment on non-fly MEQ bodies, for troops tax, in my loyalist lists. And bring more 2+ or 3W units instead. 

[Karhedron]

6 hours ago, Captain Idaho said:

It's just every tournament I've ever been too sees troops on objectives shot dead rather than anything.

I normally work on the principle that the best defence is a good offense. My Tacticals/Intercessors normally avoid the worst of the heat because my opponents are more worried by the Sanguinary Guard, Plasma Inceptors and MM Attack Bikes racing towards their lines. Yes my Troops are at risk if my Speahead takes a mauling but they rarely go down without taking a big chunk of the enemy wit them.

[Captain Idaho]

I wish Troops were a little more useful than glorified objectives holders, but hey ho.

I must say though, whilst I see the virtues of only putting 300pts into the Troops sections, there's been more than a few games where I could really do with the extra bodies on the table. Again, just holding onto those objectives.

Any more than 3 bare bones Troops choices for Marines does become quite difficult to justify. By barebones I refer to a cheap Heavy Weapon in a Tactical Squad. 10pts for a single weapon ain't bad.

[BLACK BLΠFLY]

Primaris Phobos troops are well worth their points. Intercessors not so much anymore.