List Building with the New Codex

[Freakshow668]

On Friday I'm having my first battles since 6th ed. 1000pts vs Dark Angels, Sisters and Tau.

I think I'll try out my Nurgle Iron Warriors. Lord, Sorceror, 3x10 Cultists, 5 Terminators, Helbrute, Plague Marines and Havocs.

No idea how I'll get on, but none have played before, so it'll be a steep learning curve for all of us.

[mel_danes]

Seeking advice Brothers.

I've got an unbuilt unit of raptors and I'm not sure if I should use them as raptors or warp talens. 

If I use them as raptors should I use the two special weapons rule or just kit them out with chainswords and bolt pistols?

For context I tend to play Alpha Legion.

Thanks.

[Dr_Ruminahui]

I've read more good things about warp talons this edition than raptors - and certainly, the talons are better in melee.  So, I guess it depends on how you plan to use them - if you want them primarily to be in melee, go talons, if you want a small fast squad for tank busting or objective grabbing, go raptors.  Personally, unless you are tight on points I think the 2 special weapons are worth it on the raptors, though which 2 weapons would really depend on who your most common opponents are and what they like to field.

[Relic]

Warp Talons are a good skirmish MSU melee unit, they are fast and will blend MSU infantry. Typically I see them taken as 5 man squads. No core on them, so you send them off to do their own thing. 

Raptors I see as more of a unit that plays objectives, keep them cheap and can fulfill secondaries etc. 

[MasterDeath]

5 hours ago, mel_danes said:

Seeking advice Brothers.

I've got an unbuilt unit of raptors and I'm not sure if I should use them as raptors or warp talens. 

Kinda depends in your subfaction and army. One is core the other is daemonkin. AL hast some stratagems for core, but daemonkin less so If remember right. I would add melters to the raptors, maybe flamers.

[Relic]

If anyone is interested and likes a bit of a read - this is what I am currently running and the logic behind it, which may be of some use.

 

I like the balance of it as it contains a mix of close combat, speed and some shooting. Bit different then the villain hammer CSM lists I see knocking about with big bricks of terminators/chosen. 

 

List Summary:

 

• MSU purpose built Iron Warriors to take advantage of -1 damage stratagem Dour Duty and to play a trading game.
• Bastion Warlord Trait (WL) to hand out obsec to core unit.
• Implacable Taskmaster WL to enable 3x5 Noise Marine squads to fire Blastmasters without movement penalty and double tap their bolters.
• Additional 3 Autocannon Havoc squads to also provide fire support.
• 2x5 Warp Talon squads and 2x5 Berzerker squads (in a Rhino) to skirmish.
• 3x10 Cultist squads and a 3 man Biker squad to play objectives/secondaries.
• No psychic to leave open the option of Abhor the Witch. Khorne units leave open the option of 4+ deny a psychic power which makes picking psychic secondaries for opponents a bit more tricky. 

Missions: War Zone Nephilim

 

Typical Secondaries:

• The Long War.
• Raise the Banners High.
• Last choice opponent dependent.

Terrain Used in area: Mid density, typical to use WTC setups.

 

2,000pts Battalion Detachment (Starts with 2CP)

 

• Dark Apostle (-1CP): Warlord: Bastion, Illusory Supplication
• Dark Apostle (-1CP): Aspiring Lord: Implacable Taskmaster, Benediction of Darkness
• Warpsmith (-1CP): RELIC: Techno-venomous Mechatendrils

 

• 10 Cultists
• 10 Cultists
• 10 Cultists

 

• 5 Terminators (-1CP): Trophies of the Long War: Black Rune of Damnation
• 5 Khorne Berzerkers: Chaos Icon
• 5 Khorne Berzerkers: Chaos Icon
• Rhino

 

• 5 Noise Marines: Blastmaster
• 5 Noise Marines: Blastmaster
• 5 Noise Marines: Blastmaster

 

• 3 Bikers
• 5 Warp Talons
• 5 Warp Talons

 

• 5 Havocs: 4x Autocannons
• 5 Havocs: 4x Autocannons
• 5 Havocs: 4x Autocannons

 

The general plan is:

 

• Cultists hold objectives/raise banners.
• Havocs move up to find firing lanes/stand on objectives as they are relatively durable.
• Core of the army is the Terminator squad, Noise Marines and Characters which go up the middle.
• The Warpsmith is Iron Warrior tech, with his relic he can pump out 6-9 mortal wounds a turn (every-time he hits with one of his 9 attacks in close combat is a mortal wound). Typically one of the Dark Apostles will switch to re-roll hits prayer when the scrap for the middle happens. This saves a CP putting Hatred Eternal on the Warpsmith.
• Warp Talons and Khorne Berzerkers fight on the flanks for objectives.
• Bikers typically get obsec for a turn and use their speed to get/flip an objective.

 

 

[Maggotlord]

2 hours ago, Relic said:

 

• Dark Apostle (-1CP): Warlord: Bastion, Illusory Supplication
• Dark Apostle (-1CP): Aspiring Lord: Implacable Taskmaster, Benediction of Darkness
• Warpsmith (-1CP): RELIC: Techno-venomous Mechatendrils

 

• 5 Havocs: 4x Autocannons
• 5 Havocs: 4x Autocannons
• 5 Havocs: 4x Autocannons

Thanks for posting your list! 

 

2 questions, though:

What are your experiences with the Dark Apostles? I would like to run a Khorne list led by 1-2 of them, but I really don't understand them. 

 

Why the autocannons? To me they seem to be the least favorite heavy weapon. 

[Relic]

Sure no problem - more then happy to share my experience so far with the Codex. Of course, your mileage may vary and Legion choice is important:

 

• Dark Apostles are a really solid support character. Typically most lists will take one with Illusory Supplication to support a big unit (Terminators/Chosen/Bikers/Plague Marines) with Black Rune of Damnation. This makes a central piece very durable and able to brawl for the middle of the board. It also provides fantastic protection to your characters, who can be quite smashy.  For a Khorne list (World Eaters?), a 10 man Terminator brick with the Black Rune and a Dark Apostle with Illusory Supplication would be a good start to any list!
• The 2nd Dark Apostle is very arguable, as we have plenty of great HQ choices in the book. I like two Dark Apostles, because I find Benediction of Darkness (aura of light cover) handy and also the full re-rolls to hit prayer. Most Chaos Lists though will take two support characters (Dark Apostle and Master of Possession) and then one smash character (Daemon Prince/Disco Lord). I am considering switching one of my Dark Apostles for a bare bones Lord for ranged re-rolls to hit, but likely will stick with what I have. 
• Finally on Dark Apostles, it is worth noting they are oddly durable due to the two Dark Disciples, which have a 4++ and can catch wounds if needed. 
• Autocannon Havocs are more of an Iron Warrior niche I think as the Legion trait ignores cover. I have found them useful for consistent chip damage and they are relatively cheap/durable for 125pts. If I really want a vehicle dead, the Iron Warriors have a stratagem for 6's to hit from any unit auto wounds a vehicle for a turn. Also a consideration for CSM lists in general is transports/flyers which I think the Codex can struggle with. You generally want to have a way to deal with these and autocannons fit that profile. If you're running a World Eaters army, I don't think Havocs will fit in as well because you're forced to pay for a mark. In Undivided Legions, I think they have a place. 

Hope that helps and more then happy to respond to any questions! 

Edited August 20, 2022 by Relic

[MasterDeath]

I think khorne havocs in general have a place, as they can be kept in wanton destruction via prayer. Shooty dreads as well

[Relic]

Mmm I have not tried them, but my feeling is that dedicating an Apostle and paying the extra 15pts on a Havoc squad is ultimately too much for the output a single Havoc squad can put out. If we had a really good shooting unit, that would be a fantastic wombo combo, but nothing bar Noise Marines has above average shooting (I think).

 

Separately, I forgot to mention a nice trick with Apostles is that after you do the Illusory Supplication prayer, he can raise a banner as you aren't using any real Aura abilities off him. Can do the same with the majority of the prayers bar Re-roll hits one and Benediction of Darkness. 

[Iron Father Ferrum]

On 8/20/2022 at 2:48 AM, mel_danes said:

Seeking advice Brothers.

I've got an unbuilt unit of raptors and I'm not sure if I should use them as raptors or warp talens. 

If I use them as raptors should I use the two special weapons rule or just kit them out with chainswords and bolt pistols?

For context I tend to play Alpha Legion.

Thanks.

Warp Talons.  You can play some serious cagey games with them.  Forward Ops can guarantee a T1 charge, then you can use their no-fallback ability to potential lock down what you charged.  On your turn, use our Legion Trait to fall back and charge something else.  Rinse & repeat.  Bigger squads with a defensive relic like the Black Rune last longer with this though.

[Prot]

On 8/20/2022 at 1:52 PM, Relic said:

Sure no problem - more then happy to share my experience so far with the Codex. Of course, your mileage may vary and Legion choice is important:

 

• Dark Apostles are a really solid support character. Typically most lists will take one with Illusory Supplication to support a big unit (Terminators/Chosen/Bikers/Plague Marines) with Black Rune of Damnation. This makes a central piece very durable and able to brawl for the middle of the board. It also provides fantastic protection to your characters, who can be quite smashy.  For a Khorne list (World Eaters?), a 10 man Terminator brick with the Black Rune and a Dark Apostle with Illusory Supplication would be a good start to any list!
• The 2nd Dark Apostle is very arguable, as we have plenty of great HQ choices in the book. I like two Dark Apostles, because I find Benediction of Darkness (aura of light cover) handy and also the full re-rolls to hit prayer. Most Chaos Lists though will take two support characters (Dark Apostle and Master of Possession) and then one smash character (Daemon Prince/Disco Lord). I am considering switching one of my Dark Apostles for a bare bones Lord for ranged re-rolls to hit, but likely will stick with what I have. 
• Finally on Dark Apostles, it is worth noting they are oddly durable due to the two Dark Disciples, which have a 4++ and can catch wounds if needed. 
• Autocannon Havocs are more of an Iron Warrior niche I think as the Legion trait ignores cover. I have found them useful for consistent chip damage and they are relatively cheap/durable for 125pts. If I really want a vehicle dead, the Iron Warriors have a stratagem for 6's to hit from any unit auto wounds a vehicle for a turn. Also a consideration for CSM lists in general is transports/flyers which I think the Codex can struggle with. You generally want to have a way to deal with these and autocannons fit that profile. If you're running a World Eaters army, I don't think Havocs will fit in as well because you're forced to pay for a mark. In Undivided Legions, I think they have a place. 

Hope that helps and more then happy to respond to any questions! 

I'm very curious how your list works out for you. I think aside from the Warpsmith it is so incredibly different from my own.... I have never taken Noise marines, nor played without a greater point emphasis on the heavy slots, and always had a MoP for my Oblits. So maybe I am stuck in an "IW mindset" that really isn't that great. I have flipped between bikers/raptors/warp talons for scoring, and have not had much success. The majority of my IW lists does not put enough forward pressure on to keep the scoring units alive. 

I think it's great you've been able to build an IW list so incredibly different from my own. I hope it works out, please let us know.

[Relic]

I have played around with the Codex since release and am still finding my feet, but I think a "balanced" approach suits my play-style more then hero-hammer without any shooting which I see other CSM lists fall into. 

Noise Marines are one of the few shooting units I rate in the book, although I think the Sonic Blasters are too much. 5 Noise Marines with a Blastmaster is 120pts. The unit has a good AP/damage profile and range which is an oddity in the book! 

I've used Oblits like I say, and well for 90pts a pop i'd hope for more then what we get. You do the maths on it, and they aren't stellar and lack the core keyword. Sure you can buff them with the MoP, but we have other datasheets which are just baseline better. I also tend to like using the core aspect of the book rather then Daemonkin due to the buffs available to core. I think arguably you can double down on either side of the book. However, trying to fit both into a list is tricky. I should say on the subject of Daemonkin, the MoP is fantastic, but I just don't love only taking one psyker in a list and I really value abhor the witch. One too many Eldar/Grey Knights in my area perhaps! 

Terrain could also be a factor - I tend to play WTC  boards as that is the norm for tournaments here, which are good for melee armies. So hiding small MSU squads is easier and then playing a trading game over objectives (which coincidentally is also good for the secondary long war). I must admit to some doubts over Warp Talons, the speed and combat is nice but they are expensive at 28pts per model for a 2 wound flying marine. The no fall back special rule has not come up yet for me!

I have had good success with the Iron Warriors so far since release - I think it helps though that I played the Codex through 8th and so this does feel like a major upgrade,! My most recent game with a slightly modified version of this list vs what I understand to be a typical Tsons list (two 10 man terminator bricks, some MSU Rubics, lots of psychic characters) went quite well. The Noise Marines and Autocannon Havocs just chipped away all game, whilst opponent was too tied up with the rest which traded up vs his units. The Warpsmith in particular can be silly, as he dishes out mortal wounds for fun vs Terminators. 

I have also tried the 10 man Terminator Unit with the Black Rune, supported by MoP, Dark Apostle, combat characters (D.Prince/Disco Lord/taking your pick from the codex!), some Oblits, cultists for actions and warp talons/bikes for the flanks. It worked well, but is a bit one dimensional as you take the middle every-game and work from there. However, if someone was just starting Iron Warriors it is a solid starting off point in my opinion. 

 

 

Edited August 22, 2022 by Relic

[Prot]

23 hours ago, Relic said:

I have played around with the Codex since release and am still finding my feet, but I think a "balanced" approach suits my play-style more then hero-hammer without any shooting which I see other CSM lists fall into. 

Noise Marines are one of the few shooting units I rate in the book, although I think the Sonic Blasters are too much. 5 Noise Marines with a Blastmaster is 120pts. The unit has a good AP/damage profile and range which is an oddity in the book! 

I've used Oblits like I say, and well for 90pts a pop i'd hope for more then what we get. You do the maths on it, and they aren't stellar and lack the core keyword. Sure you can buff them with the MoP, but we have other datasheets which are just baseline better. I also tend to like using the core aspect of the book rather then Daemonkin due to the buffs available to core. I think arguably you can double down on either side of the book. However, trying to fit both into a list is tricky. I should say on the subject of Daemonkin, the MoP is fantastic, but I just don't love only taking one psyker in a list and I really value abhor the witch. One too many Eldar/Grey Knights in my area perhaps! 

I do love a good hero hammer list once in a while.. I guess it's why I am tempted by Huron now, and did play so much Black Legion prior to this codex.

That being said I just tried Noise Marines for the first time last night with my Emperor's Children, and they were pretty decent. Not amazing, but when that Blastmaster connects, it's pretty darn impressive (especially at 24"!)

I have a very similar view on the "Daemonkin" vs "Core" point you make which I think is something not enough people are actually talking about. What I'm seeing is the MoP, and 'new' units are getting all the attention; Mop + MSU Possessed + Daemon Engines are all the rage. But I have to admit it's not really that great in my Iron Warriors. The good news is I think you can take a squad of 5 Possessed in any list and they will perform decently (or much better with the right Legion rules), but in Iron Warriors, I'm just not getting the mileage. Which is a shame because the new models are great.

The "core" rules certainly do seem to gel better with IW. I often take Bastion on my Warpsmith, and that's yet another reason to consider core alternatives, aside from often just having access to Re-rolls/Icons. Things like... my Rubrics, and World Eater squads start to look a little more tempting. Even Plague Marines.  All the fanfare seems to be around unmovable Terminator bricks (which I find hilarious since Deathguard and even to a lesser degree Thousand Sons have been doing this (with obsec) for a long time now.) I love how this is a 'new' thing for CSM but those of us that have played the other legions know the feel of this by now, and yes it can get stale. So I've explored with Chosen (actually not that bad!) and other Core units.

[Verbal Underbelly]

Chaos Lords with Flames of Spite and Mantle of Traitors have been great fun for me. In my last game I gave him Axe of the Forgemaster as well and he dished out so many MWs on top of his usual damage. Very much a glass cannon though and nearly lost him to smite spam. Going to try the same approach with my Emperor's Children CL but with a basic thunder hammer. While I enjoy a solid hero hammer style dude it's still important to have a balanced list. I try and make sure I can do something in each phase.

[Relic]

If you're playing Iron Warriors - I highly recommend the Warpsmith with Hatred Incarnate and Techno-venomous Mechatendrils. He dishes out c.7 to 9 mortal wounds in close combat, and has a number of pistols. Mark of Slaanesh would be good on him and still cheap at 80/95pts! 

Quote

The "core" rules certainly do seem to gel better with IW.

Agreed, but whilst I like the Core units because of buffs available to them, it is worth mentioning that the downside is the offense capability of the main Core units (legionaries, chosen, bikers, terminators, havocs) is lacking somewhat (in my opinion). It is a lot of damage 1/2 and middling AP. You are probably looking to supplement the output somehow, either by taking smash characters (Disco Lord/D.Prince,Master of Executions/smashy lord build/Abaddon etc) or more high offense units (Warp Talons/Possessed/Berzerkers/Rubics with flamers and so forth). 

Quote

So I've explored with Chosen (actually not that bad!)

How are you/people finding Chosen? They seem to get a lot of hype online, but so far in my limited testing of them I find myself thinking along the lines of these guys are expensive 3 wound marines on foot with a fancy power sword and boltgun. I could spend the extra for Terminators or save the pts and get Berzerkers who dish out more pain for their pts. I will have to try them more. 

As an aside - I did not feel like thinking the other day so ran an Iron Warrior Rhino rush army (think Storm of Iron book!). Basically 3x10 Khorne Berzerkers in Rhinos, 10 Slaanesh Chosen in a Rhino, 5 Legionaries, mortal wound Warpsmith and a Dark Apostle with Mantle of Traitors in a Rhino (Mantle of Traitors lets you jump out and still do a prayer). 9 Tzeentch Bikes with the Black Rune who got the Illusory Supplication turn one off the DA before he jumps into his Rhino and basically the bikes lead the way, clearing screens with AP-1 or 2 ignore cover bolters. 2x10 Cultist squads to hold objectives/raise banners. Good clean 3rd edition style rush forward army. 

It put up a very good showing vs a typical T'au build - 2 Commanders, a Crisis Suit bomb, 2 Hammerheads, Riptide, some Breachers in Devilfish and Kroot to fill his troop slots. It may sound more World Eater then Iron Warriors, but our tougher transports due to no re-roll wounds, stratagems to improve Berzerkers durability/auto pass morale and ability to take a good lead the line unit/chaff clearing (bikes) is surprisingly effective and fun! 

Edited August 25, 2022 by Relic

[Prot]

55 minutes ago, Relic said:

As an aside - I did not feel like thinking the other day so ran an Iron Warrior Rhino rush army (think Storm of Iron book!). Basically 3x10 Khorne Berzerkers in Rhinos, 10 Slaanesh Chosen in a Rhino, 5 Legionaries, mortal wound Warpsmith and a Dark Apostle with Mantle of Traitors in a Rhino (Mantle of Traitors lets you jump out and still do a prayer). 9 Tzeentch Bikes with the Black Rune who got the Illusory Supplication turn one off the DA before he jumps into his Rhino and basically the bikes lead the way, clearing screens with AP-1 or 2 ignore cover bolters. 2x10 Cultist squads to hold objectives/raise banners. Good clean 3rd edition style rush forward army. 

I agree, that definitely reminds me of one of my old 3rd edition lists (without the Basilisk!) Seriously though the only thing that bugs me about that list is IW probably can't leverage the overall theme of that list like the other Legions can.  Very good point about Mantle Of Traitors though. I always assumed the Apostle on foot. (I rarely use one though since this codex dropped).

57 minutes ago, Relic said:

So I've explored with Chosen (actually not that bad!)

As I mentioned in my initial thoughts, it was maybe luck, but what I found is they had a very similar role to the Terminators as cheaper 3 wound body guards (capable of ObSec). I really don't know if they are any better than Berkzerkers though for the cost and I do like the Deny strat they get.

I just really like the Chosen models so I'm really just playing them until I get my newer squad of Termies up and running. I personally have been avoiding the Termie block because I've always used termies and I think it's in every list right now. But with IW the Termies probably are one of the better choices.

[Relic]

I suppose when it comes to Iron Warriors, it is the shooting legion in a Codex that does not really promote dakka dakka builds, outside of some AP 1/2 fire. I'm leaning more into the durability aspect, where the stratagems are very solid. Worth mentioning I think, the no re-roll wounds aspect of the Legion trait i've found either stellar vs armies that double down on re-rolls, like T'au or absolutely a non thing vs armies with little to no rolls on wounds (most Chaos armies, lots of marine builds...err come to think of it most of the armies?!). Lightning claws are no longer in vogue, so don't appear as much either. 

I believe Iron Warriors have plenty going for them, some of the Warlord traits, especially Bastion and the stratagems are super solid. If I had to place issues i';ve found with the Codex so far is that the general offensive ability of datasheets and outside of the black rune unit, our units aren't particularly durable for elite units either. Iron Warriors shore up the durability aspect and can spike some damage vs vehicles.