Heavy Weapons- Havocs and Legionaries

[Gilbertus1]

Hello all just wanted to start a thread regarding which heavy weapons are optimal for either a Havoc or Legionarie squad.

Which benefit from an icon of Tzeench with Legionaries and which don't need it with the Havocs.

Here are some ideas to start off

4 Heavy Bolters in Havocs can make efficient use of the Daemonbolts strat, yet doing so with Tzeench icon Legionaries can make a heavy bolter AP3.

4 Chain Cannon Havocs can benefit from the AL strat to be untargetable, making them really annoying.

Lascannons with Legionaries can be AP4 so better against AoC on 2+ saves

[Iron Father Ferrum]

More to come later, but for now I have to point out that Havocs can't take icons.

Edited July 6, 2022 by Iron Father Ferrum

[Gilbertus1]

1 hour ago, Iron Father Ferrum said:

More to come later, but for now I have to point out that Havocs can't take icons.

Already knew that thanks.

Specifically mentioned, as asking which weapons may not need an icon which can then be taken by the havocs. Perhaps I wasn't clear on this.

[Iron Father Ferrum]

Ah, gotcha.  I misread some of the post.  My apologies.

[Gothical]

Legion choice is really going to play into this, as Havocs can either be not that useful or utterly brutal depending on what you choose. The same applies to Legionaries but to a much lesser extent as they have more options to chose from and access to an important additional stratagem.

Legionaries can be remarkably powerful - with the Icon of Tzeentch and Hatred Eternal stratagem they have a remarkable amount of firepower, and it is this that made me understand the restriction on Heavy/Special weapons.

For an all-round shooting unit using both of the above, I think that a Reaper Chaincannon and a Havoc Autocannon are a good combination - with the additional AP to offset Armour of Contempt both guns become good Marine killers once again, and any infantry of a lesser quality will be shredded. The volume of shots allows them to be a threat to elite units and vehicles as well.

As a mid-range unit the Reaper Chaincannon and Plasma Gun seems like the best combination, the AP of the Plasma offsetting the weakness of the Reaper against MEQ and both will be utterly brutal under Hatred Eternal. This unit can do work whether or not the Tzeentch Mark & Icon are bought, providing a decent troop option for Undivided warbands, though obviously the Icon boosts their output.

As for using Daemon Shells, obviously one of the guns needs to be a Heavy Bolter to really get maximum benefit. I feel the best complement is the Havoc Autocannon - it has a long range and already has the improved AP over the Heavy Bolter, so the two work really well together with the stratagem - but are a bit of a weird combination if you don't use it in any particular turn. Although the AP boost is what most people will focus on, remember that the additional range works with the Malicious Volleys rule so even the Bolter Legionaries will be putting out decent damage. Again the Mark & Icon are good but optional.

With all the large units you can take the Balefire Tome to give access to the Prescience power, trading 1-2 Bolter shots for improved accuracy for the whole unit. If the unit has a Mark then you can boost the resilience of the unit instead with the God-specific powers.

MSU units still very much have a place, particularly to bring additional firepower the army may otherwise lack. A Lascannon is still helpful to have, the Reaper Chaincannon gives horde-mowing power so helps even a minimal unit be perceived as a threat and create target priority choices for the opponent, and both of these can benefit well from Hatred Eternal if you really need their guns to do work at a key point. There is a case to take the Missile Launcher if you want a flexible weapon and think you might be needing the Skyshrike Missile stratagem (note the wording of the stratagem stops Hatred Eternal combining with it). I don't really see the use for the Havoc Autocannon in a small unit as it really becomes best with the Tzeentch Mark & Icon and that is an expensive upgrade for a minimum squad.

I won't get into the options for Special/Combat weapons as that is outside the scope of this thread, but it is worth noting that as powerful as these combinations can be, Legionaries can do a lot of short-range shooting/melee work as well which are also viable strategies and give a huge number of ways to run our basic Troops choice.

 

Havocs are more of a niche unit I feel - they face very strong competition from Obliterators, Forgefiends and even the Predator Annihilator/Land Raider thanks to the improved Twin Soulshatter Lasannons. The lack of access to an Icon also makes it harder to boost their output, and this is where the Legion choice really matters - appropriately Iron Warriors can make good use of them with multiple direct/indirect boosts.

With the Soulshatter Lascannons I do find it hard to think of taking ordinary Lascannons in Havocs, but given the Chaos army can be quite short on solid long-ranged firepower and these guys can move and shoot without penalty it is still an option worth considering.

Reaper Chaincannons seem like a good choice, but the Armour of Contempt rules have really dented their output against common armies. The volume of fire is still significant and will force a lot of saves against MEQ and light-medium vehicles (and this is probably the main reason they can't take Icons, because the Tzeentch icon would be busted here) and obviously mulches anything lighter.

4 Heavy Bolters with Daemon Shells does look like fun, but most of the benefit will be lost against Armour of Contempt units and the additional range will often not be needed.

The Havoc Autocannon and Missile Launcher seem like underpowered choices. I think I would definitely prefer 4 Autocannon as an all-comers weapon but I question if if is worth taking all-comers Havocs in the first place given Obliterators and Forgefiends exist (obviously the Autocannon Havocs become option if your army refuses to use Daemon units).

With all the Havocs it is worth noting that the Exalted Champion's aura applies to ranged attacks as well, making him a surprising support unit and can help protect them from melee threats. As for other support units, a Sorcerer (or nearby Legionaries unit with Balefire Tome) can use Prescience to boost their accuracy and any of the three God-specific powers can boost their resiliency which could be very useful since they are T5 base and really don't want to take casualties. I don't think a Chaos Lord would be worth babysitting the unit(s) with unless you have a specific gunline castle in mind.

Edited July 6, 2022 by Gothical

[BrainFireBob]

To me the issue is the lower Nephilim CP combined with Trait/Relic not being free.

More than before, I think you need to plan on which strats you've built to use, and I think leaning on Mark/Icon/Datasheet abilities only occassionally boosted by strats is the way forward.

Previously, I would have considered something like Hatred Eternal an option for multiple turns. Now I'd lean towards two squads built that could use it well, but plan on not needing to use it, if that makes sense?

I do intend to try Daemon Shell heavy bolter havocs, since 36"+6"(strat)+6"(move) is nice on paper. Maybe in my BL, walking with Abaddon. 

Oblits with a MoP with the IW reroll trait are a maybe, but such a huge target. 

I always favored redundant MSU, this codex seems to favor a more Eldar like dedicated unit approach. 

Really interested to try BL termies with a termie sorc with the relic armor for redeployment shenanigans. Four combi meltas, 2 reapers, and 2 combiplasma is a fair amount of punch. Hesitating over adding Loyalty's Reward for another CP. 

[GreaterChickenofTzeentch]

I personally think Lascannon + Missile Launcher +Tzeentch Icon has legs for at least one Legionary Squad for a combination of anti-tank and anti-deep strike (if needed via the Tzeentch Stratagem). The Mark ability makes them decent for holding ground in the process too, though if they're Black Legion or Iron Warriors (with the right Warlord) they can move with minimal fuss. Adding the Balefire Tome for Prescience (or maybe Skeins of Fate from their Mark....will have to double check if Legionaries get the Mark spells) or a smite in a pinch can help too.

[GreaterChickenofTzeentch]

On 7/6/2022 at 8:13 AM, Gothical said:

Legion choice is really going to play into this, as Havocs can either be not that useful or utterly brutal depending on what you choose. The same applies to Legionaries but to a much lesser extent as they have more options to chose from and access to an important additional stratagem.

Legionaries can be remarkably powerful - with the Icon of Tzeentch and Hatred Eternal stratagem they have a remarkable amount of firepower, and it is this that made me understand the restriction on Heavy/Special weapons.

For an all-round shooting unit using both of the above, I think that a Reaper Chaincannon and a Havoc Autocannon are a good combination - with the additional AP to offset Armour of Contempt both guns become good Marine killers once again, and any infantry of a lesser quality will be shredded. The volume of shots allows them to be a threat to elite units and vehicles as well.

As a mid-range unit the Reaper Chaincannon and Plasma Gun seems like the best combination, the AP of the Plasma offsetting the weakness of the Reaper against MEQ and both will be utterly brutal under Hatred Eternal. This unit can do work whether or not the Tzeentch Mark & Icon are bought, providing a decent troop option for Undivided warbands, though obviously the Icon boosts their output.

As for using Daemon Shells, obviously one of the guns needs to be a Heavy Bolter to really get maximum benefit. I feel the best complement is the Havoc Autocannon - it has a long range and already has the improved AP over the Heavy Bolter, so the two work really well together with the stratagem - but are a bit of a weird combination if you don't use it in any particular turn. Although the AP boost is what most people will focus on, remember that the additional range works with the Malicious Volleys rule so even the Bolter Legionaries will be putting out decent damage. Again the Mark & Icon are good but optional.

With all the large units you can take the Balefire Tome to give access to the Prescience power, trading 1-2 Bolter shots for improved accuracy for the whole unit. If the unit has a Mark then you can boost the resilience of the unit instead with the God-specific powers.

MSU units still very much have a place, particularly to bring additional firepower the army may otherwise lack. A Lascannon is still helpful to have, the Reaper Chaincannon gives horde-mowing power so helps even a minimal unit be perceived as a threat and create target priority choices for the opponent, and both of these can benefit well from Hatred Eternal if you really need their guns to do work at a key point. There is a case to take the Missile Launcher if you want a flexible weapon and think you might be needing the Skyshrike Missile stratagem (note the wording of the stratagem stops Hatred Eternal combining with it). I don't really see the use for the Havoc Autocannon in a small unit as it really becomes best with the Tzeentch Mark & Icon and that is an expensive upgrade for a minimum squad.

I won't get into the options for Special/Combat weapons as that is outside the scope of this thread, but it is worth noting that as powerful as these combinations can be, Legionaries can do a lot of short-range shooting/melee work as well which are also viable strategies and give a huge number of ways to run our basic Troops choice.

 

Havocs are more of a niche unit I feel - they face very strong competition from Obliterators, Forgefiends and even the Predator Annihilator/Land Raider thanks to the improved Twin Soulshatter Lasannons. The lack of access to an Icon also makes it harder to boost their output, and this is where the Legion choice really matters - appropriately Iron Warriors can make good use of them with multiple direct/indirect boosts.

With the Soulshatter Lascannons I do find it hard to think of taking ordinary Lascannons in Havocs, but given the Chaos army can be quite short on solid long-ranged firepower and these guys can move and shoot without penalty it is still an option worth considering.

Reaper Chaincannons seem like a good choice, but the Armour of Contempt rules have really dented their output against common armies. The volume of fire is still significant and will force a lot of saves against MEQ and light-medium vehicles (and this is probably the main reason they can't take Icons, because the Tzeentch icon would be busted here) and obviously mulches anything lighter.

4 Heavy Bolters with Daemon Shells does look like fun, but most of the benefit will be lost against Armour of Contempt units and the additional range will often not be needed.

The Havoc Autocannon and Missile Launcher seem like underpowered choices. I think I would definitely prefer 4 Autocannon as an all-comers weapon but I question if if is worth taking all-comers Havocs in the first place given Obliterators and Forgefiends exist (obviously the Autocannon Havocs become option if your army refuses to use Daemon units).

With all the Havocs it is worth noting that the Exalted Champion's aura applies to ranged attacks as well, making him a surprising support unit and can help protect them from melee threats. As for other support units, a Sorcerer (or nearby Legionaries unit with Balefire Tome) can use Prescience to boost their accuracy and any of the three God-specific powers can boost their resiliency which could be very useful since they are T5 base and really don't want to take casualties. I don't think a Chaos Lord would be worth babysitting the unit(s) with unless you have a specific gunline castle in mind.

Just as a note, if you really want to, an Apostle and a Master of Possession can combine to get Nurgle Havocs or Plague Marines to Toughness 7. Not sure how much utility that has, but it's worth looking at.