Which Special Weapons do you think are worth it in Support squads?

[SkimaskMohawk]

I'm still at a loss on how you think melta needs to be cheaper. 

Plasma got nerfed by losing ap 2 for armour penetration, needing a 4+ to activate it against Toughness, feel no pain being more abundant, and a lot of models gaining multiple wounds. It dropped 5 points to compensate.

Melta got buffed by taking away armoured ceramite, gaining rerolls to wound against automata and dreads, and being able to ignore the increase of wounds and feel no pain. It should also drop 5 points to....compensate? Not to mention the bodies they're on got cheaper.

They're stronger now than they were when they were writing the rules for 5th, and could have exploded Spartans off a glance. 

Edited July 8, 2022 by SkimaskMohawk

[Lautrec the Embraced]

6 hours ago, SkimaskMohawk said:

We start with whole numbers because you can't buy half a plasma or melta gun, or any other fraction.

Sure. Just wanted to point out that holistically they are not *that* bad - rounding up, supposing there is only 1 marine to kill and you want to do it as by having as few shots as possible to reach that expected value (EV) of damage output of 1, makes them look worse then they are, Don't get me wrong, I'm not critizing you, what you say is correct here - but by applying the same logic a weapon that would deal on avg 0.99 needs always 2 shots to deal a single wound. Whereas we know that in larger samples it will be much more effective than that.

 

7 hours ago, SkimaskMohawk said:

A plasma shot averages 0.33 unsaved wounds from breaching and 0.07 wounds from failed armour; rapid fire naturally doubles that value.

Correct, so it goes to 0,815

 

7 hours ago, SkimaskMohawk said:

You need 3 plasma guns in rapid fire range to get 1.98 breaching wounds (the average failed armour saves only add up to 0.43 and are discarded as they don't add to the math from breaching

Why are they discarded???

Either I don't understand how breaching works or because you just want one kill? Again, a 0.999 avg damage weapon also needs one more shot to get that sweet EV of at least one. Yet EV is meant to be reached in long term, not a single test, the result converges to your EV when you conduct more tests. More often than not, one shot would be just enough in aforementioned example. How many shots would be needed to blast a hundred marines of the table? We don't count it as 2 (shots needed to to reach that EV of at least 1 because one shot is just 0.999)*100=200 shots. No. It should be just around 100 shots.

Plasma gun has EV of 0,815 vs Veteran. It might take 1,2,3,4,5... and so on guns to kill a veteran on the table - d6 is fickle - but on average it should be around 2.45 (assuming ideal conditions bla bla blah and assuming enough marines to kill) . It's likely that in a singular test 2 guns will suffice. It's also likely that in a singular test 3 guns will be needed. It's not always 3. That's the whole point.

Sorry for hijacking the thread for statistics, my point is I believe plasma's not as bad as on the table as it may look in some artificial calculations.

[Imren]

I agree it's a interesting discussion. However, I think an argument whether this or that support squad or this or that HSS is good or not depends a bit on the context and what army you play. For example in an AL list with Alpharius a 10 man strong HSS with culverins and a MoS will hit with all 50 shots (hitting on 2+ and rerolling 1's thanks to PE(everything)) and reroll all their 1's for wounding as well. So that is 50x S6 shots all hitting and rerolling 1's to wound, you will whittle down any squad with such bucketload of dice thanks to statistics. Maybe HSS culverins are not as good anymore despite having 5 shots instead of 4 in the previous edition, but again, depending on cxontext and legion it can be devastating.

[Brofist]

The problem with plasma is that its not reliable. Good lists tend to be the ones that maximize your ability to do reliable things. Breaching is an extra variable. I need to play some more, but my impressions so far is that even a full 10 man unit of plasma guns rapid firing into something is not guaranteed to do its job. 8 melta guns will do it more reliably.

[firestorm40k]

I'm magnetising my support squad, so I can choose between plasma, melta or rotor cannons. My army is Fists, I'm going to convert a Castellan and incorporate 2-3 Heavy Squads, so depending on what sort of army my opponent fields will determine my choice. Melta if I need anti-tank, Plasma for Termies etc, or Rotor Cannons for infantry. 

[Dont-Be-Haten]

What does your army do? What gap do your support squads need to fill?

There is no perfect answer because at the end of the day they are just expensive squads that die to bolter fire.

Melta is never bad, but really only good if you have infiltrators or a drop pod as a meltacide unit to hit side armor. Your dreads and tanks are better suited to take on AV otherwise

Flamers are about the same, ride them up in a rhino and then clear chaff. But are pretty much either kitted or shot out after their initial drop point. But make a menacing anvil to detour charges, if you keep an Apothecary nearby.

Plasma has range and is much more forgiving with "gets-hot" rolls. Breaching (4+) and is all around a good options, much like melta but meant to chew up elite infantry and light vehicles.

Volkite cavaliers gives you range, mid strength and weight of Fire. In 30k 1 in 3 wounds = a death against MEQ. And can glance low AV and mid tier toughness to death. Plus deflag has a chance for further wounds.

Rotor cannons are just massive firing platforms that you're whole goal is to pin out a unit for a free charge or to negate reactions for a turn. S3 means it's difficult to get there. Snipers do this better.

[Chaeron]

On 7/7/2022 at 7:35 PM, Slips said:

For me, HS slots are pretty much never used on infantry models. I use them for stuff like Levis/Deredeos or my LR Achilles. The only time I took an HSS squad was when we were playing like 5k+ points per player and went "screw the FoC"

And beyond Legion specific RoWs… but then we can argue they’re not in that slot anymore. It’s more how you’re most likely to see them on the table!

I think moving beyond effectiveness, it’s also what fits the Legion - but there’s a case for fulfilling a role that you might have less of situationally within your list or theme. People will probably err towards Melta weaponry for its utility against multiple unit types.

Edited July 9, 2022 by Chaeron
Double post.

[Dont-Be-Haten]

Picking through this thread again after purchasing a box of specialty weapons.free

I really like the idea of a squad of volkite cavaliers possibly 10 strong.

Although extremely expensive meltacide wouldn't be terrible with raven guard. Infiltrating in a rhino or Infiltrating and scouting up with Corax could be very strong.

 

[Canadian_F_H]

Preface: my primary 30k army is Iron Warriors.

Plasma, melta and rotor cannons all have solid roles to fill.  But if the role is already filled then you don't need any of them.  It will depend a lot on what else I'm bringing.  Overall, melta will be the least useful for me since the things I always build my army around are already very dangerous to multiwound infantry, vehicles and dreads, so that's not a hole that needs filled for me.  Not too worried about bringing rotor cannons for pinning since IW can get lots of pinning, but I like miniguns so... Rule of cool will win there.

Ranged AP2 is hard to come by.  So plasma guns with breaching(4+) that can jump out of a rhino and reach out is pretty handy.

Melta is buffed by the disappearance of armoured ceramite, so I see value in them, but I doubt I'll make room for them in my lists.  I have access to so many antitank weapons that are almost as effective per shot but have MUCH longer ranges.

The other guns are fairly mild, and I feel like that sort of firepower can be brought in better in other ways.  

[OttoVonAwesome]

As long as people don't see Plasma as the bigger threat I'm gonna say Plasma will end performing better for you. Better range means more turns of shooting more dead models over the course of the game. A Melta squad will hit hard but will also need transport potentially missing the first turn alltogether and risks getting cuaght flat out. If they make thier rush and unleash hell on thier chosen target you can garuntee that your opponent is gonna lay them out in response with whatever it takes unless you are heavily supporting them with fast close combat units. 

[Orange Knight]

I must admit I have grown somewhat jealous of the unique weapons available to some Legions.

One of the most impressive weapon one can run on a Support Squad is the assault cannon that is unique to the Imperial Fists. A squad of 10 can disembark from a Rhino and fire 40 Str6 shots with Rending that hit on a 2+

I was recently on the receiving end of this unit in a game where myself and my opponent were testing out various rules and weapon combinations. Can deal with a lot through weight of dice before the rending is even applied.

[Canadian_F_H]

1 hour ago, Orange Knight said:

...One of the most impressive weapon one can run on a Support Squad is the assault cannon that is unique to the Imperial Fists...

*Heavy support squads. Tho that competes with a lot of other good HS options it's definitely a strong one.  Especially since taking a Castellan makes all Imperial Fists HS squads "Line"

[Slips]

In ZM where the HS slot isnt as contested, and with Assault Cannons being Assault instead of Heavy now, means you can have Scoring, and decently mobile, squads of assault cannons just running around and dumping buckets of dice down hallways.

To me, thats probably where youre most likely to see them.

Or in a hammerfall strikeforce, actually, dropping down Assault Cannons and Rotor Cannon squads and just BRRRRTing the board would be pretty sick.

[Canadian_F_H]

@Slips

100% agreed.  If/when running Imperial fists in ZM, A Castellan and HSS(s) with assault cannons, seams like a very dangerous combo.

For the Castellan himself tho, I would probably take the Autocannon because he gets +1shots with it and the assault cannon "Assault" type is redundant with the Castellan's relentless rule.

Edited July 26, 2022 by Canadian_F_H

[Bung]

5 hours ago, Orange Knight said:

I must admit I have grown somewhat jealous of the unique weapons available to some Legions.

One of the most impressive weapon one can run on a Support Squad is the assault cannon that is unique to the Imperial Fists. A squad of 10 can disembark from a Rhino and fire 40 Str6 shots with Rending that hit on a 2+

I was recently on the receiving end of this unit in a game where myself and my opponent were testing out various rules and weapon combinations. Can deal with a lot through weight of dice before the rending is even applied.

Its not unique.

BA can do it too and could do it first in the old Edition.

 

The difference is IF do it better due to their LA trait.

 

[Orange Knight]

Yeah, I'm aware that the Blood Angels have access to the weapon, but what makes it so potent with Imperial Fists is hitting on a 2+ thanks to the Legion trait.

So it's actually an option for a heavy support squad? I must have my wires crossed. I think it's because my opponent used Rotor Cannons to model the unit.

[Bung]

4 hours ago, Orange Knight said:

Yeah, I'm aware that the Blood Angels have access to the weapon, but what makes it so potent with Imperial Fists is hitting on a 2+ thanks to the Legion trait.

So it's actually an option for a heavy support squad? I must have my wires crossed. I think it's because my opponent used Rotor Cannons to model the unit.

 

Its an HSS option as you upgrade a Heavy Flamer.

[Xenith]

I have a 5 unit of Calivers - they seem decent - good weight of fire (more than a 10 man tac squad) and great range and wounding MEQ on a 2+ with a chance to deflagrate. I'll be bumping them to 10 man at some point. 

[JeffJedi]

How about chargers? No real mention of them in this thread.

[Spagunk]

Chargers are merely "fine"; not great but not bad either. Charger's range is kind of a bummer which is probably why no one is recommending it. You're laying down a lot of potential wounds but enemies get their 2+ or 3+ save where as plasma can punch through with the occasional ap2 and strength 7 hit (vs. Str 5).

Again, they're not bad but just kind of "meh". That said, they're very cool looking and really hit the sci-fi vibe. Who doesn't like mars ray guns, eh?

Edited July 26, 2022 by Spagunk

[Dont-Be-Haten]

I think Chargers are good in keeping your support squads cheap. A 10 man squad of them at mid range have the luxury of being a good mid tier troop hunter. The extra 7" compared to the flamers gives them more leeway than with flamers alone. To maximize squads like Flamers you really need niches like Corax offers to Raven Guard. Having infiltrate, and then scout means that even if you are having to deal with auspex then you have the ability to still cut the distance. 18" barrier then scout move, then turn one regular move with BBQ units = a ton of damage.

This doubles for the meltacide squads.

Although, the tactic can be for any of the variants for RG specifically. That scout move is so powerful on infantry units especially when you are brining strong shooting options and not having the flexibility of multiple heavy support options.

[Bung]

2 hours ago, JeffJedi said:

How about chargers? No real mention of them in this thread.

I think they are better in Breachers.

[Brofist]

If you're looking at chargers in a support squad, ask yourself why you wouldn't pay the same points for combi chargers somewhere else

[Canadian_F_H]

In response to what's been said about Volkite chargers.  That's basically my opinion too.

To Elaborate: there are quite a few units I would probably be bringing anyways which I can give V-chargers or Combi-Chargers to.

Breachers, Veterans, Terminators as examples. 

Sure those units are more expensive, so they might not substitute for a support squad well, but if I'm already bringing them, giving those units Chargers is cheaper than a whole new squad taken just to bring those chargers.

Edited July 27, 2022 by Canadian_F_H
Typos...

[Bung]

I would add, If you want a Support Squad with Volkite Chargers you probably want to get them Chainswords too for charging after shooting.

That could give you a cheap Squad that can punch a bit above its own weight.