Is it time to embrace the alternative detachments?

[Valkyrion]

Go back to the old FOC with 2 HQ, 6 troops and 3 max of any other unit type, and the owning player decides which FOC slots are obsec.

If the current changes to CP remain through the next edition then multiple HQ's are less important as they won't have relics and warlord traits (though still Aura's, granted), and as it isn't a Vanguard or similar then you cannot spam Terminators or Bikes or whatever is requiring the rule of 3 to exist in the first place, because you'll only have 3 slots.

This system still allows troops to carry an advantage because there could be twice as many (or 4 times as many given Combat Squads and such) scoring units, but allows players to field an army with a more determined focus.

???

[Cpt_Reaper]

The old FOC is dead. May it stay that way. The current Detachments are superior in every way to the old system.

[Valkyrion]

It's not going back to the old FOC though, because in my suggestion you needn't have troops, you just couldn't have 6 ObSec fast attack, but only 3.

You're pushing for a legally fieldable elite/fast/heavy detachment that has up to 6 scoring units, the CP benefit and no downside. We're all trying to tell you it can't and shouldn't be done, whilst putting forward alternatives to be discussed.

What about my idea above is unpalatable? You have necessary restrictions in the number of units per slot, but are otherwise free to pick whatever kind of army you want and give whatever FOC slot you want ObSec. 

[phandaal]

33 minutes ago, Valkyrion said:

You're pushing for a legally fieldable elite/fast/heavy detachment that has up to 6 scoring units, the CP benefit and no downside. We're all trying to tell you it can't and shouldn't be done, whilst putting forward alternatives to be discussed.

Dark Angels' Deathwing Vanguard and Rav Outrider detachments are a good example. Two of the strongest ways to play Dark Angels, with either obsec Terminators or obsec bikes and refunded CP, but both are heavily restricted in what units they can bring.

Without those restrictions, it would just be broken.

[Karhedron]

12 minutes ago, phandaal said:

Dark Angels' Deathwing Vanguard and Rav Outrider detachments are a good example. Two of the strongest ways to play Dark Angels, with either obsec Terminators or obsec bikes and refunded CP, but both are heavily restricted in what units they can bring.

Without those restrictions, it would just be broken.

I agree that Deathwing and Ravenwing are very good, even with the restrictions I am almost tempted to say that they are too good. As well as ObjSec and the CP refund, they give permanent Transhuman in the case of Deathwing and Advance + Shoot and +3" Movement for Ravenwing.

Would a generic Vanguard or Outrider detachment with just ObjSec and CP refund be broken if you removed the restrictions but also removed the bonus rules? I know that always-on THP is one of the big draws for Deathwing.

[Valkyrion]

25 minutes ago, Karhedron said:

Would a generic Vanguard or Outrider detachment with just ObjSec and CP refund be broken if you removed the restrictions but also removed the bonus rules? I know that always-on THP is one of the big draws for Deathwing.

Yes, I think so.
In DW only the terminators, knights and bladeguard are scoring - not everything from the elites section. (thanks to Phandaal for the correction!)
In RW only outriders and bike squads are scoring. 

If you remove THP from Deathwing but allow their dreadnoughts to score then I'm not sure you've weakened them, especially when troops natively have ObSec anyway. 
 

 

Edited July 13, 2022 by Valkyrion

[phandaal]

Perma Transhuman is not a bonus from the Deathwing detachment. All Inner Circle infantry have that ability. The detachment requires that all units be Inner Circle, so you end up with most of the units in the detachment having it.

For Ravenwing, +3" movement/advance + shoot does not come from the detachment. In fact, it is not even active for most of the game. It is their Devastator Doctrine bonus, so it is active Turn 1 and maybe other times for individual units if you can put them back into that doctrine later. Every unit in the detachment has to have the Ravenwing keyword, so all of the units end up with that Turn 1 bonus.

In both cases, the bonuses would be active for those units regardless of what type of detachment they are in.

The only additional bonus either detachment offers is Obsec on certain units in the detachment and a CP refund, in exchange for heavy restrictions on what units can be included. Hence why it can be an example for other armies.

  

9 minutes ago, Valkyrion said:

In DW only the terminators, knights and bladeguard are scoring - not everything from the elites section.

Neither Knights nor Bladeguard get obsec in a Deathwing detachment.

Edited July 13, 2022 by phandaal

[BLACK BLΠFLY]

THP for what can be an entire army is just crazy imo.

[phandaal]

2 minutes ago, Black Blow Fly said:

THP for what can be an entire army is just crazy imo.

Inner Circle is definitely one of our strongest rules. Not going to lie, there is satisfaction in facing up across from someone who expects to leafblower your army away with their high strength weapons and attacks, then watching that confidence dissipate as they remove all those 2s and 3s from the wound roll pile. Of course, Mortal Wound spammers just laugh at the ability while they point at your units and tell you how many models to remove.

Removing perma-transhuman from Inner Circle would bring Dark Angels down in power considerably. Whether that is the right answer in a world of much more broken codexes is a different question.

The actual point of all of this is that we do have two examples of severely restricted detachments that offer Obsec in exchange for those restrictions, which is the topic of this thread.

[Cpt_Reaper]

1 hour ago, Valkyrion said:

It's not going back to the old FOC though, because in my suggestion you needn't have troops, you just couldn't have 6 ObSec fast attack, but only 3.

You're pushing for a legally fieldable elite/fast/heavy detachment that has up to 6 scoring units, the CP benefit and no downside. We're all trying to tell you it can't and shouldn't be done, whilst putting forward alternatives to be discussed.

What about my idea above is unpalatable? You have necessary restrictions in the number of units per slot, but are otherwise free to pick whatever kind of army you want and give whatever FOC slot you want ObSec. 

First of all, you quite literally said "go back to the old FOC". Designating the maximum of 3 FA slots as scoring doesn't do anything to make the Outrider detachment as good as the Battalion. Especially as in your suggestion it doesn't exist.

I accepted that giving ObSec to the alternative detachments was not the way to go. Then the topic kept talking about Troops and how to improve them despite me stating my intent was to make them completely irrelevant outside of the Battalion because THAT detachment is built around them.

With that said, fully refunding the CP cost if your warlord is in the Detachment is clearly needed. However, that alone I feel doesn't bring them up to Battalion levels of value.

[Valkyrion]

I'm not getting into an argument about the old FOC, the context of what I said is perfectly clear. 

But the topics of troops and the other detachments aren't mutually exclusive. 
The reason why I talked about troops is that if you make the other detachments have ObSec units then people would no longer take battalions, so in order to remain viable the troops would therefore have to improve. 

The outrider, vanguard and spearhead would be balanced enough with the CP refund, IMO, as you are trading specialist units for boots on the ground.  Once your specialist units have killed all your opponents troops choices then you should have the upper hand. That's risky, fun, thematic, cool, balanced. 

 

[Inquisitor_Lensoven]

How about they just stop charging CP for detachments, and maintain the current CP rules?

no need to try to reinvent the wheel.

 

however on topic, I’ve never felt at a disadvantage using a vanguard detachment or any other alternative detachment.