Legion choices for Renegade CSM and other "Counts As" Forces

[GreaterChickenofTzeentch]

I think it would be interesting to discuss ideas based on what Legion Traits should be used to represent forces that don't have their own.

 

My suggestions so far:

 

Fallen/Black Lions: Black Legion (close range fire, reducing morale impact, lots of relics and powerful HQ's. Good Bikes and Terminators help create a solid Dark Angels analogue).

Crimson Slaughter: Word Bearers (they already had so much in common some people thought CS were a WB successor->lots of Possessed, good buffs for priests and Chosen, ability to take a Possessed character).

 

Warp Ghosts: Red Corsairs (the Ghosts are noted as being extremely aggressive and trading for/stealing artifacts and tanks, plus they are also fleet based and the combination of Trait and Stratagems suit them well).

Scourged: Night Lords with Mark of Tzeentch on as much as possible (tons of ways to melt people's brains with disruption effects representing "The LIES! The LIIIIIIIES!!", many Warlord Traits and Stratagems available to mimic the old Scourge Relic, various prophecy effects, and Tzeentch warp shenanigans)

 

Brazen Beasts: World Eaters (WE is still one of the strongest bases for Khorne Daemonkin, which the BB used to belong to. Alternate could be Creations of Bile, Word Bearers, or maybe Iron Warriors given their emphasis on Daemon Engines).

The Purge: Nurgle Iron Warriors (excel at blowing stuff up, like using cannon fodder, durable, good synergies with Nurgle effects)

The Cleaved: Nurgle Night Lords (effects to boost durability, appear suddenly, and synergize with the "indestructible Slasher villain" archetype they seem to go for).

 

Flawless Host: Emperor's Children (rumored to be descendants, overlap extremely well, Creations of Bile for an alternate take because their members have a history of experimenting on current/potential members and acquiring talented craftsmen)

 

Magma Hounds: Creations of Bile (represents their unstable/molten forms pretty well, along with their association with Soulforges)

 

The Pure: Slaanesh Red Corsairs (from the Emperor's Spears fluff and the Wrath and Glory RPG, former Imperial Chapter recently turned traitor, seem to be primarily concerned with power and self perfection/glorification)

 

Dark Mechanicus: Creations of Bile or Iron Warriors with lots of Accursed Cultists, Cultist Mobs, Spawn and Dark Communes using "counts as." (Negavolt Cultists as Accursed with modified Kataphrons, etc. as Torments, emphasis on weird tech and unusual Possessed + Daemon Engines. Possibly Word Bearers if more fanatical about worship).

Sons of Malice: Creations of Bile or Night Lords might work here for an emphasis on enhancing oneself or spreading fear through gore, cannibalism, etc. Word Bearers might work for fanaticism, resistance to powers of other gods, etc.).

Interested to hear more from all of you folks.

Edited July 7, 2022 by GreaterChickenofTzeentch

[Dr_Ruminahui]

Those are all really great ideas - I'm enjoying your take on the possibilities of the new codex.

[TrawlingCleaner]

These are a great idea! I think you've got them all bang on!

I'll be interested to see if GW decide to create Legion traits for ones they previously had (Scourged, Beasts, Purge, Slaughter and Flawless) in a future expansion or White Dwarf article

[Pirate Empress]

I agree with Brazen Beasts play most accurately as Khornate Iron Warriors. The Purge I'd say you could best represent playing Death Guard simply because it hammers home the Nurgle aspect and if you want to lean into the chemical warfare aspect of the Renegade Chapter, just pick the Mortarion's Chosen Sons Plague Company. Also, lore wise, most factions falsely believed or still believe they're an extremist fringe vectorium of the XIVth Legion. The Scourged work best in a Cult of Prophecy Thousand Sons army. First, Tzeentch stuff, nuff said. Second, in 8th Edition it was revealed that a lot of warbands outside the XVth Legion know how to make Rubricae now. So it's not a Son of Magnus or Black Legion exclusive thing to have Rubric Marines now. You can't really do better than Emperor's Children for The Flawless Host right now. Sons of Malice to me I think Creations of Bile are fine and very fluffy as units can only be augmented by the Manflayer if they're unmarked. Crimson Slaughter would be dope as Word Bearers yeah. 

[WrathOfTheLion]

Can you use the Emperor's Children Legion trait? Don't remember it being in the list you can choose from.

I guess you could just play them as Emperor's Children at the end of the day, so not exactly a roadblock.

Edited July 8, 2022 by WrathOfTheLion

[GreaterChickenofTzeentch]

5 hours ago, Pirate Empress said:

I agree with Brazen Beasts play most accurately as Khornate Iron Warriors. The Purge I'd say you could best represent playing Death Guard simply because it hammers home the Nurgle aspect and if you want to lean into the chemical warfare aspect of the Renegade Chapter, just pick the Mortarion's Chosen Sons Plague Company. Also, lore wise, most factions falsely believed or still believe they're an extremist fringe vectorium of the XIVth Legion. The Scourged work best in a Cult of Prophecy Thousand Sons army. First, Tzeentch stuff, nuff said. Second, in 8th Edition it was revealed that a lot of warbands outside the XVth Legion know how to make Rubricae now. So it's not a Son of Magnus or Black Legion exclusive thing to have Rubric Marines now. You can't really do better than Emperor's Children for The Flawless Host right now. Sons of Malice to me I think Creations of Bile are fine and very fluffy as units can only be augmented by the Manflayer if they're unmarked. Crimson Slaughter would be dope as Word Bearers yeah. 

I can see your point with most of the above, but The Scourged don't necessarily work best as Thousand Sons. They're Renegades and have all of their art showing them as either normal CSM in Power Armor or Terminators. Not saying they can't have Rubricae, but all of the books and painting tutorials so far show them as standard Legionaries, which TS literally can't field in WH40k. A couple squads of Rubricae, sure, but you have to have the regular Legionaries that are standing next to Abaddon on the Vigilus cover, shown in the color plates, and/or featured in the painting tutorials.

There's a similar issue with The Purge......they have standard Legionaries. Plague Marines are appropriate and should be there, and there may have been a core that was indeed XIV Legion. However, they have standard Legionaries all over the place and aggressively recruit from all sorts of followers of Nurgle, so the DG rules are too limited because you literally can't have standard dudes.

[Gederas]

I'm definitely in agreement that Brazen Beasts = Iron Warriors with Mark of Khorne everywhere

[GreaterChickenofTzeentch]

23 minutes ago, Gederas said:

I'm definitely in agreement that Brazen Beasts = Iron Warriors with Mark of Khorne everywhere

Could be really cool for sure. Of course, the Daemon Engines, vehicles, Possessed, etc. wouldn't get the Khorne keyword like they would in World Eaters, but that would matter less for some players.

[Pirate Empress]

9 hours ago, GreaterChickenofTzeentch said:

I can see your point with most of the above, but The Scourged don't necessarily work best as Thousand Sons. They're Renegades and have all of their art showing them as either normal CSM in Power Armor or Terminators. Not saying they can't have Rubricae, but all of the books and painting tutorials so far show them as standard Legionaries, which TS literally can't field in WH40k. A couple squads of Rubricae, sure, but you have to have the regular Legionaries that are standing next to Abaddon on the Vigilus cover, shown in the color plates, and/or featured in the painting tutorials.

There's a similar issue with The Purge......they have standard Legionaries. Plague Marines are appropriate and should be there, and there may have been a core that was indeed XIV Legion. However, they have standard Legionaries all over the place and aggressively recruit from all sorts of followers of Nurgle, so the DG rules are too limited because you literally can't have standard dudes.

I see your points, in that case we just need to dig a little deeper into warbands like the Scourged/Oracles of Change, or The Purge/Deathmongers then. Thousand Sons are very different with unit choice and you can't really get around that, and their legion originally and a little bit of the latter today revolves around psychic warfare, guile, and long ranged fighting. The Scourged are a renegade chapter from the Adeptus Astartes, and one who worked with the Inquisition it's implied very closely at times. Not enough lore to say whether they were codex compliant or not as a loyalist chapter but there is enough artwork for us to know they have the flexibility to use close combat and ranged units like most chapters to various degrees. Plus their fallen Chapter Master, Gallus Herodicus, is said to be a Chaos Lord, not a sorcerer. Sure you could say he's probably a Sorcerer Lord cuz Tzeentch theme and it's not unheard of for Chapter Masters to have psychic potential of some kind, but he also could just have been blessed by the Changer of Ways into becoming a Warplock. But that feels pointlessly limiting if you're trying to deviate from Thousand Sons tropes about said Ruinous Power. Really I think you could make a strong argument for Word Bearers. They're melee focused which all chapters can do, the reroll hits is merely their uncanny precognitive abilities, and the mortal wounds come from their ensorcelled weapons. You can also represent a rogue Chaplain as a Dark Apostle rather than sticking solely to psychic HQ choices. For the Purge I'd argue Black Legion now with all Marks of Nurgle, because it's a flexible force who's shocking ability to land lots of successful hits jives well with these nihilistic undead's singlemindedness to exterminate all life. And the near immunity to morale is realistic because these guys see life itself as corrupt. They want all living things to die, including themselves. And their capacity to feel any physical pain is nearly non-existent now that Nurglite corruption has fully settled in. What are they gonna be afraid of: death? Being tormented for eternity in the Warp or devoured by daemons when they die? Hell, they probably think they and everyone else deserve it.

[GreaterChickenofTzeentch]

16 hours ago, Pirate Empress said:

 They want all living things to die, including themselves. And their capacity to feel any physical pain is nearly non-existent now that Nurglite corruption has fully settled in. What are they gonna be afraid of: death? Being tormented for eternity in the Warp or devoured by daemons when they die? Hell, they probably think they and everyone else deserve it.

I'd agree that Black Legion is a valid alternative for the Purge, especially in Crusade given their "Corpses and Cinders" Agenda.