Theory about returning Primarchs

[Inquisitor_Lensoven]

So valrak mentioned a rumor a while back that teased the primarchs that was initially laughed down.

a rumor that claimed guilliman, mortarion, magnus, angron, and leman Russ would be the first.

now we’re getting rumors of the lion, yet no Russ has appeared.

russ would make a good counter to angron imho. 
So my theory if this newest rumor is true, is that GW changed their minds for some reason about Russ, making Johnson next. Though Johnson isn’t a clear good counter to angron, you know who would be? Sanguinius. Sure we won’t get hawkboi himself back, but the rumored super sanguinor would effectively be sanguinius (hopefully).

this allows for GW to have more story lines, and making both sides roughly even on primarch power without having to drop two loyalists in a short time period.

[Iron Father Ferrum]

Russ returning is actually from a several-years old rumor from A Warseer user who went by Hastings and was known for the accuracy of his leaks.  He claimed that Russ would be one of first five returned Primarchs (the other four being, surprise! The four we have seen already).  So I'm rather dubious of the Lion being next when Hastings was *probably* a GW employee.

 

That being said, whoever started the Lion rumor might be confused by a blurry or cropped photo as Lionel and Leman both are traditionally depicted with long blond hair and wielding swords. If the viewer couldn't see or make out the armor design, it's possible to mistake one for the other.

[Captain Idaho]

The Lion is probably the best Primarch to tackle a giant beastie as that was his whole thing on Caliban.

[CCE1981]

I think that the vision that Njal has in Ashes of Prospero was a hint at the order of release for the Primarchs.  Pg 86, not knowing if we can quote from books even with proper annotation, Magnus “blue flames”, Mortarion “riotous plague”, Guilliman and/or Custodes  “storm of golden blades”.  This goes on to “a fanged maw” heavily suggesting Angron.

Things are looking bleak, Guilliman is making huge in roads but most of his drives are retaking lost ground, and against fractured forces.  Following further from the “fanged maw” sentence Angron and his World Eaters will hit Terra hard, either taking it or coming very close.  This is the point where the next loyalist Primarch will return to save the day.  This particular part of the vision moved onto the actual storyline.

I doubt that as visions go it would have skipped Lemon Russ’ return.  That little nugget would all consuming for the Wolves, and would either be heavily clouded or right there in the forefront due to its significant emotional connection.  The rumors seem to indicate the Lion, or Sanguinious-light or Sanguinor-Prime.  Remember when GW said that not all Primarchs will return the same.

I have long thought as a possibility is that the Lion was not asleep in the Rock, but was actually Luther that was asleep and the Lion that was being tortured.  I conjectured that the biggest lie that the Dark Angels have, one not trusted to get out anywhere was that the Lion is a traitor to the Emperor.  The Fallen are loyal to their Primarch, and Luthor’s Loyalties and his followers were to the Imperium.  Every legion had members that followed the Emperor and members that followed Horus.  Why would the Dark Angels be so concerned with it getting out that a number of forces followed Horus?  Unless the Lion purged those homeworlds with Horus’ blessing.  A way to ‘burn the ships’ of the other Heretics so they would all go to Terra in an all or nothing assault.

Sorry for rambling a bit, maybe even going on a small tangent, but there it is, my take on what is about to come forward.

[Inquisitor_Lensoven]

4 hours ago, Iron Father Ferrum said:

Russ returning is actually from a several-years old rumor from A Warseer user who went by Hastings and was known for the accuracy of his leaks.  He claimed that Russ would be one of first five returned Primarchs (the other four being, surprise! The four we have seen already).  So I'm rather dubious of the Lion being next when Hastings was *probably* a GW employee.

 

That being said, whoever started the Lion rumor might be confused by a blurry or cropped photo as Lionel and Leman both are traditionally depicted with long blond hair and wielding swords. If the viewer couldn't see or make out the armor design, it's possible to mistake one for the other.

But it’s been what? 5-6 years? Plans can change in that time, and there’s a lot going on for the DA at the moment, so it does seem like a perfect time to bring the lion back rather than the wolf

 

besides the blood angels fighting demons of khorne is about as natural as blood angels fighting tyranids, or blood angels fighting necrons…or blood angels fighting really anyone lol

Edited July 9, 2022 by Inquisitor_Lensoven

[Karhedron]

The old Hastings rumour is currently 4/5 so I am keeping my fingers crossed for Russ. Having said that, the rumour is about 6 years old and a lot can happen in that time. Even Angron's appearance does not guarantee Russ will be next (or if/when he will come).

"I saw a sleeper entombed in rock, and a white storm that rode upon a chariot of lightning. A shadow rises to the call of the Allfather’s messengers, a darkness that strikes from within."

Njal's vision in in Ashes of Prospero hints at the Lion, Khan and Corax, none of which were included in Hasting's rumour. This leads me to suspect that Gav Thorpe was just stirring the pot (plot?) in Ashes of Prospero and not laying out some sort of coded release schedule for fans. We know or suspect that the Lion, Corax and Khan are still alive so Njal's vision is not particularly revealing. If his vision had included Dorn or Vulkan, it would have been a major revelation as their status is pretty much "missing, presumed dead". I don't think Ashes of Prospero really gives much away.

[Helias_Tancred]

GW stated their criteria for why they choose to bring back Roboute Guilliman as the first primarch not too long after they did so. If you follow the criteria they mentioned then Lion El'Jonson would logically be the next primarch to return; he is accounted for and they readily established where he is.

Personally given that Guilliman is the current returned loyalist primarch it also makes sense to bring back the Lion. Based on their past history in the Horus Heresy novels what a great move! So much future writing potential! Also Lion will return, to what amounts to, a loosely intact legion structure. Lots more to fuel future lore, novels, etc. It also sorta harkens back to the Horus Heresy relationship with Guilliman the able planner, coordinator, administrator, while the Lion is his armored fist, the Imperium's war leader. Despite their bickering like brothers that don't get along, Lion pairs with Guilliman well. 

The only other primnarch whose return would be a similar situation would be Russ. But he will remain for now. 

 

[MasterOfAardvarks]

While I know it is vanishingly unlikely, I hope we see Ferrus Manus. He might be dead, but I remember that he made a possible return in one of the Horus Heresy books as a headless giant leading the Legion of the Damned.

[phandaal]

32 minutes ago, Helias Tancred said:

GW stated their criteria for why they choose to bring back Roboute Guilliman as the first primarch not too long after they did so. If you follow the criteria they mentioned then Lion El'Jonson would logically be the next primarch to return; he is accounted for and they readily established where he is.

Personally given that Guilliman is the current returned loyalist primarch it also makes sense to bring back the Lion. Based on their past history in the Horus Heresy novels what a great move! So much future writing potential! Also Lion will return, to what amounts to, a loosely intact legion structure. Lots more to fuel future lore, novels, etc. It also sorta harkens back to the Horus Heresy relationship with Guilliman the able planner, coordinator, administrator, while the Lion is his armored fist, the Imperium's war leader. Despite their bickering like brothers that don't get along, Lion pairs with Guilliman well. 

The only other primnarch whose return would be a similar situation would be Russ. But he will remain for now. 

 

Russ has a lot of his buildup already though. It has been Wolftime for a while now.

The Lion would need a lot more groundwork before getting woken up. GW may be setting that groundwork with Luther's escape and rumors of a Fallen army, but so far that has not been shown.

They also need to give the Lion to someone besides Gav Thorpe. I do not think I can take any more giga-brain plot twists on the level of Azrael accidentally creating a warp storm going back in time to demolish Caliban.

[Iron Father Ferrum]

3 hours ago, MasterOfAardvarks said:

While I know it is vanishingly unlikely, I hope we see Ferrus Manus. He might be dead, but I remember that he made a possible return in one of the Horus Heresy books as a headless giant leading the Legion of the Damned.

There's 3rd Edition lore from the Iron Hands' Index Astartes article that states that the ghost of Ferrus appeared simultaneously to all living Iron Hands across the galaxy that he would return when mankind needed him most.  There's certainly an argument for those conditions have been met.

[Captain Idaho]

Let's be honest, the groundwork needed for any of the Primarchs to return won't happen. After all, Guilliman just came back after a couple books rather artificially. 

[Inquisitor_Lensoven]

56 minutes ago, Captain Idaho said:

Let's be honest, the groundwork needed for any of the Primarchs to return won't happen. After all, Guilliman just came back after a couple books rather artificially. 

Hopefully GW learned a lesson after that…

[Gederas]

1 hour ago, Captain Idaho said:

Let's be honest, the groundwork needed for any of the Primarchs to return won't happen. After all, Guilliman just came back after a couple books rather artificially. 

To be fair, there was the whole "observers have said Guilliman's wounds are healing, which should be impossible in a stasis field" for years with Guilliman.

Basically every Loyalist Primarch who's alive had hints of possible return. And as Iron Father Ferrum said, even some of the dead ones....

Also:

On 7/9/2022 at 6:36 PM, CCE1981 said:

I have long thought as a possibility is that the Lion was not asleep in the Rock, but was actually Luther that was asleep and the Lion that was being tortured.  I conjectured that the biggest lie that the Dark Angels have, one not trusted to get out anywhere was that the Lion is a traitor to the Emperor.  The Fallen are loyal to their Primarch, and Luthor’s Loyalties and his followers were to the Imperium.  Every legion had members that followed the Emperor and members that followed Horus.  Why would the Dark Angels be so concerned with it getting out that a number of forces followed Horus?  Unless the Lion purged those homeworlds with Horus’ blessing.  A way to ‘burn the ships’ of the other Heretics so they would all go to Terra in an all or nothing assault.

I'm sorry, but are you implying the Lion was a traitor/on Horus' side here?

Edited July 10, 2022 by Gederas

[CCE1981]

33 minutes ago, Gederas said:

To be fair, there was the whole "observers have said Guilliman's wounds are healing, which should be impossible in a stasis field" for years with Guilliman.

Basically every Loyalist Primarch who's alive had hints of possible return. And as Iron Father Ferrum said, even some of the dead ones....

Also:

I'm sorry, but are you implying the Lion was a traitor/on Horus' side here?

Yes, I actually believe he was playing both sides against the middle.  I think that is the ultimate secret that his surviving legion is trying to hide.  As I said all Legions had members that supported the other side that isn't worthy of damnation.  The members of Legions that fell to Horus that remained loyal to the Imperium were used as suicide troops to sell their lives to ensure they secret traitors and to atone for the deeds of their Primarch.

 

[Inquisitor_Lensoven]

1 hour ago, Gederas said:

To be fair, there was the whole "observers have said Guilliman's wounds are healing, which should be impossible in a stasis field" for years with Guilliman.

Basically every Loyalist Primarch who's alive had hints of possible return. And as Iron Father Ferrum said, even some of the dead ones....

Also:

I'm sorry, but are you implying the Lion was a traitor/on Horus' side here?

He said it pretty clearly lol.

but he’s right it makes sense.

[Gederas]

50 minutes ago, CCE1981 said:

Yes, I actually believe he was playing both sides against the middle.  I think that is the ultimate secret that his surviving legion is trying to hide.  As I said all Legions had members that supported the other side that isn't worthy of damnation.  The members of Legions that fell to Horus that remained loyal to the Imperium were used as suicide troops to sell their lives to ensure they secret traitors and to atone for the deeds of their Primarch.

 

13 minutes ago, Inquisitor_Lensoven said:

He said it pretty clearly lol.

but he’s right it makes sense.

So we're ignoring the fact that the Lion almost shanks Guilliman over the Imperium Secundus? Or the NUMEROUS POINTS in both the Heresy novels and Book 9: Crusade that point to Lion probably being the single-most loyal Primarch, period? Also: Luther was the one being tortured in the Rock, read his novel.

 

Anyways, this is neither here nor there.

[MegaVolt87]

I think it would be cool if Mephy was dying after a big duel, Sanguinor shows up and they fuse and they make like a Sang Avatar thats basically a primarch equivalent in all but name, with its own memories etc  with model + rules. Then actually Vulkan returns instead once he hears of it as the real returning primarch, then has a bit of a internal conflict if he should destroy the being like he did robot Ferrus in HH era. Way more interesting than Russ or Lion returning. Still thinking what would prompt Khan to return though. Mabye Morty draws him out... 

[Lord_Ikka]

Going to ignore the Lion/Luther switch-conspiracy stuff- as @Gederas pretty much sums up my feelings there.

As far as Primarchs returning, the Lion and Russ make the most business sense, regardless of any other reasons. Both DA and SW are the two most popular 1st Founding chapters among the players (BA is there as well, but  Sanguinius coming back isn't in the cards). That means that either the Lion or Russ will have better sales than any other Primarch- their fanbase is larger. Plus, you'd get the option to model something completely different from Gulliman with either Lion el'Jonson or Russ- a Primarch Knightly Lord or a Wolf-Barbarian King (suitably 40k'd from their HH version) that don't really have any aesthetics similar to the very "standard SM" Gulliman. 

With the rumor that the Sanguinor is getting Primarched (at least stat-wise, with a possible new model), having the Lion come back seems more likely as far as the fluff goes, with both the BA and DA in the Imperium Nihilus and having both gain a Primarch-level character would really set up some good story arcs.

My bet is that the Lion rumor is more likely than the older Russ rumor as far as the next Loyalist coming out is. I don't think either will be a straight counter to Angron- the timing with the rumors right now doesn't really suggest a big campaign of Primarch vs Primarch in the same was Gulliman vs Mortarian happened, it seems more likely that Angron will come out similar to Magnus.

[Inquisitor_Lensoven]

2 hours ago, Gederas said:

So we're ignoring the fact that the Lion almost shanks Guilliman over the Imperium Secundus? Or the NUMEROUS POINTS in both the Heresy novels and Book 9: Crusade that point to Lion probably being the single-most loyal Primarch, period? Also: Luther was the one being tortured in the Rock, read his novel.

 

Anyways, this is neither here nor there.

If you’re playing both sides might be beneficial to appear the most loyal.

 

then why else would the first legion be so paranoid about some of their legionnaires turning? Literally every legion had brothers that turned traitor.

[BLACK BLΠFLY]

Half the legion is an entirely different matter and it’s understandable they are so hush hush.

[Felix Antipodes]

I feel that GW has had a change of heart since the original Hastings rumour came out about 6(?) years ago and that they are building towards the return of the Lion.  Not that I think that would be the best order imho.  This seems to be where the lore writers seems to be heading as I see it.

Don’t know why Vulkan hasn’t shown his face though.  He’s immortal after all and you would think he’d be drawn out of his current hidey-hole by the news of a returned Guilliman.  Same goes for Corax since we know he’s out there running free and not a possible prisoner of the Drukhari, Necrontyr, etc, as has been hinted over the years.

As for Ferris, if I was Pert I’d have used his body as the base for a practice servitor so I could kill him over and over again.  Just don’t reattach the head or you could end up with another Guilliman self-repair .

Hope they aren’t silly enough to be planning a recreation of the HH, with a returned Lion leading a reunited Nihilus against Guilliman’s Sanctus.

[Orange Knight]

7 hours ago, Captain Idaho said:

Let's be honest, the groundwork needed for any of the Primarchs to return won't happen. After all, Guilliman just came back after a couple books rather artificially. 

It happened suddenly, but the seeds had been there for years and years.

I think the pieces are in place for both the Lion and Russ in equal measure.

[Inquisitor_Lensoven]

23 minutes ago, Orange Knight said:

It happened suddenly, but the seeds had been there for years and years.

I think the pieces are in place for both the Lion and Russ in equal measure.

What are you calling years and years?

I got out of the hobby around 2011/2012, came back to the hobby and bam primarchs are back. Nothing I recalled from when I left was setting the ground work for any primarch to come back.

 

[Orange Knight]

15 minutes ago, Inquisitor_Lensoven said:

What are you calling years and years?

I got out of the hobby around 2011/2012, came back to the hobby and bam primarchs are back. Nothing I recalled from when I left was setting the ground work for any primarch to come back.

 

The lore snippets in codex books about how pilgrims going to see the Primarch in stasis on Mcragge, claiming the wounds were healing, etc

It was framed as both "wishful thinking" and as a possible miracle in the making, depends on the inclination of the reader.

[Lord_Ikka]

2 hours ago, Felix Antipodes said:

Hope they aren’t silly enough to be planning a recreation of the HH, with a returned Lion leading a reunited Nihilus against Guilliman’s Sanctus.

That I would doubt- even though the Lion and Gulliman are very much not fond of each other (something something Imperium Secondus...), they both despise the followers of Horus and should work together to keep the Imperium whole. Their first meeting might be really interesting though...