Theory about returning Primarchs

[Karhedron]

2 hours ago, Orange Knight said:

The lore snippets in codex books about how pilgrims going to see the Primarch in stasis on Mcragge, claiming the wounds were healing, etc

It was framed as both "wishful thinking" and as a possible miracle in the making, depends on the inclination of the reader.

Agreed, the stuff about Guilliman's wounds healing in stasis goes all the way back to the 2nd edition UM codex IIRC. 

[Karhedron]

4 hours ago, Felix Antipodes said:

Don’t know why Vulkan hasn’t shown his face though.  He’s immortal after all and you would think he’d be drawn out of his current hidey-hole by the news of a returned Guilliman.  Same goes for Corax since we know he’s out there running free and not a possible prisoner of the Drukhari, Necrontyr, etc, as has been hinted over the years.

We don't know if Vulkan survived the War of the Beast. There are certain things that can kill even Perpetuals, usually psychic powers of some sort. It is possible that the massive detonation of Waagh energy that Vulkan triggered might have been enough to perma-kill him. Remember Guilliman had an audience in the Emperor's Throne Room, which is supposedly where Vulkan is/was standing guard over the broken Webway gate.

If Vulkan had been there, it seems odd of him not to give Guilliman a quick greeting.

"Great to see you again brother! Sorry I can't help but I am busy playing whack-amole with an infinite horde of daemons."

Corax is in the EOT hunting his fallen brothers (or at least that is where he was last seen following the Scouring). Time moves strangely in the Eye so he might not even have learned of Guilliman's return. Or he might have decided that he needs to focus on his own mission rather than getting bogged down on logistics and crusades, both tasks for which Guilliman is far better suited.

[Captain Idaho]

It was literally one line that Guilliman was healing and it turned out that was wrong anyway as he died soon as they turned off the stasis field.

I don't see a single line of text as enough groundwork to rewrite the background for the whole galaxy in 40K, but then that's how GW operates.

I think any Loyalist Primarch returning will get the Agent of the Imperium rule in future, as Abaddon has demonstrated. Otherwise the 3 Salamanders players will all buy Vulkan and that's about it... 

Whilst on the subject, I think GW has shown that being a Primarch is just a title and nothing special with Abaddon. He's suped up beyond Guilliman and then there's the Silent King who is similarly like that.

I'm sure armies without a Primarch will get a super character without any problems 

[Chapter Master Valrak]

From the whispers I am hearing at the moment, I've only heard the Lions name dropped, hopefully all will be revealed by next year.

[Orange Knight]

23 minutes ago, Chapter Master Valrak said:

From the whispers I am hearing at the moment, I've only heard the Lions name dropped, hopefully all will be revealed by next year.

Don't.... Don't give me hope lol

[Lord_Ikka]

48 minutes ago, Captain Idaho said:

Whilst on the subject, I think GW has shown that being a Primarch is just a title and nothing special with Abaddon. He's suped up beyond Guilliman and then there's the Silent King who is similarly like that.

Well, Abbadon has followed his gene-father's path in taking lots of gifts of the Chaos Gods, but without succumbing to them like Horus did. Being super-charged makes sense- he's essentially a Daemon-Prince of all four of the Gods without the downside of actually being a daemon. I can understand how GW would make him very powerful, though still not on par with an actual Daemon-Primarch.

As for the Silent King, he was the master of an empire that beat everyone else in the galaxy with insanely advanced sciences and then managed to both ensnare and shatter star gods. He has one powering his chair, just so he can float around. He is definitely supposed to be beyond "normal" Primarch level, he should be equivalent to the Emperor, if he was a playable character, just that the Silent King's abilities are powered by tech rather than psychic. 

There are precedents in the fluff for beings as powerful or beyond those of primarchs, its just that they are usually not seen directly in the physical universe in the current age, such as the Aeldari Gods, C'tan (not shards, but full Star Gods), and some of the Greater Daemons of Chaos. 

59 minutes ago, Captain Idaho said:

I'm sure armies without a Primarch will get a super character without any problems

Of course. In fact, the only armies were that doesn't really make sense are IG, GSC, and T'au. IG are base humans, and most likely any new Loyalist Primarch (and Gulliman getting updated rules) will have something similar to Agent of Chaos to give bonuses to them. Genestealer cults and T'au don't really have a parallel to a Primarch, the cults are just an extension of Nids (who have big monsters, which is I guess close...) and the T'au don't really do the hero/lone agent of might thing (though I guess they could super-charge Farsight). I expect that in 10th ed we'll see the Drukari get their version (probably Vect in some sort of Silent King-style role), Harlequins will get an Avatar of the Laughing God, and armies like the AdMech (Cawl), SoB (Celestine), and Orks (Gazghul) will see their might heros get buffed up, maybe not to Primarch stats, but farther than they are currently.

[Lord_Ikka]

8 minutes ago, Orange Knight said:

Don't.... Don't give me hope lol

I've been living with that hope ever since Gulliman came out- bring the Lion! (DA fan for years)

I'd be happy with any of the Loyalists really though, just because its becoming increasingly hard to see Chaos get their Daemon-Primarchs without another Loyalist showing up. Heck, I'll even take Ferrus Manus as the Lord of the Legion of the Damned. 

[Karhedron]

2 hours ago, Chapter Master Valrak said:

From the whispers I am hearing at the moment, I've only heard the Lions name dropped, hopefully all will be revealed by next year.

Darn, I play Blood Angels and Space Wolves so my hopes for a Primarch-equiv for my armies are now dwindling. :( 

[BLACK BLΠFLY]

Pete Fowley loves his DA so it wouldn’t surprise me if the Lion is next.

[phandaal]

12 hours ago, CCE1981 said:

Yes, I actually believe he was playing both sides against the middle.  I think that is the ultimate secret that his surviving legion is trying to hide.  As I said all Legions had members that supported the other side that isn't worthy of damnation.  The members of Legions that fell to Horus that remained loyal to the Imperium were used as suicide troops to sell their lives to ensure they secret traitors and to atone for the deeds of their Primarch.

 

This has to be the worst head-canon for the Lion outside of Rule 34.

The lore is clear that the Lion is completely devoted to the Emperor. There is no ambiguity in that. Also, the lore explicitly spells out exactly why the Dark Angels kept the fall of Caliban a secret.

Finally, Luther is the subject of his own novel and more lore that explicitly spells out that he was being kept within the Rock until he was recently freed by a Daemon incursion.

None of that is presented as in-universe opinion. It is presented as "here are some facts of the universe" from the writers to the readers.

[Kenzaburo]

Well, thematically speaking, Russ would fit after Angron. Russ and Angron had a pretty big duel during or rather right before the heresy and have struggled with each other quite a bit. And then there's the whole Armageddon theme where the Sons of Russ prominently fought Angron and his kin. That's where I can see them going with Russ. And he would be more of a contrast to Guilliman in style and character. The Lion on the other hand is in several ways more akin to the Lord of the XIIIth.

But Guilliman and the Lion were always the most prominent living primarchs in the lore. That's why the Lion's return will just be a matter of time. Tbh, the Lion's return was more probable than that of Guilliman for a long time, if he just were to conclude his nap time. 

Something not entirely on-topic that just occured to me, after someone mentioned Corax: Considering that he's been stalking his fallen brothers in the Eye for all that time, he really hasn't been successful at all, since no traitor primarch died after the heresy. With Gathering Storm, Dark Imperium and Gates of Fire fluff we have heard of all known living traitor primarchs being active right now, haven't we? Aside from Alpharius, that is, I think.

[Karhedron]

4 minutes ago, Kenzaburo said:

Something not entirely on-topic that just occured to me, after someone mentioned Corax: Considering that he's been stalking his fallen brothers in the Eye for all that time, he really hasn't been successful at all, since no traitor primarch died after the heresy. With Gathering Storm, Dark Imperium and Gates of Fire fluff we have heard of all known living traitor primarchs being active right now, haven't we? Aside from Alpharius, that is, I think.

It does seem that Corax has not been successful (yet) in his self-appointed task. Then again, Lorgar has spent 9K years in the Eye and has only dared to venture into realspace since the opening of the Great Rift. Similarly, very few of the fallen Primarchs have done much against the Imperium since the Scouring (apart from Angron in the First war for Armageddon). Maybe they have been active "off-screen" or maybe the reason they have been so rarely seen is that Corax keeps jumping out of the shadows and kicking their backsides every time they try to leave the Eye.

Or maybe it is due to time dilation in the Eye. We know time passes strangely there. Maybe from Corax's point of view, he has only just finished curb-stomping Lorgar and the next 9K years pass in the blink of an eye.

[phandaal]

34 minutes ago, Karhedron said:

It does seem that Corax has not been successful (yet) in his self-appointed task. Then again, Lorgar has spent 9K years in the Eye and has only dared to venture into realspace since the opening of the Great Rift. Similarly, very few of the fallen Primarchs have done much against the Imperium since the Scouring (apart from Angron in the First war for Armageddon). Maybe they have been active "off-screen" or maybe the reason they have been so rarely seen is that Corax keeps jumping out of the shadows and kicking their backsides every time they try to leave the Eye.

Or maybe it is due to time dilation in the Eye. We know time passes strangely there. Maybe from Corax's point of view, he has only just finished curb-stomping Lorgar and the next 9K years pass in the blink of an eye.

According to the Word Bearers novels, Lorgar has been isolated by his own choice meditating for most of that time. The Corax thing was later on, so it would not be the main reason for Lorgar not being seen.

[Inquisitor_Lensoven]

11 hours ago, Orange Knight said:

The lore snippets in codex books about how pilgrims going to see the Primarch in stasis on Mcragge, claiming the wounds were healing, etc

It was framed as both "wishful thinking" and as a possible miracle in the making, depends on the inclination of the reader.

That doesn’t sound like they laid any ground work, it sounds like someone wanted girlyman back and they scoured the lore for anything that could possibly justify it retroactively, rather than writing new lore to hint at his return.

 

but that’s just my opinion 

[Inquisitor_Lensoven]

9 hours ago, Chapter Master Valrak said:

From the whispers I am hearing at the moment, I've only heard the Lions name dropped, hopefully all will be revealed by next year.

Oh man the real valrak?

[Inquisitor_Lensoven]

6 hours ago, Karhedron said:

Darn, I play Blood Angels and Space Wolves so my hopes for a Primarch-equiv for my armies are now dwindling. :( 

Whether it’s Dante, sanguinor, mephiston, or a combination of them a ‘great angel’ of some sort is bound to happpen.

sanguinius will return in all but name.

[Captain Idaho]

8 hours ago, Lord_Ikka said:

Well, Abbadon has followed his gene-father's path in taking lots of gifts of the Chaos Gods, but without succumbing to them like Horus did. Being super-charged makes sense- he's essentially a Daemon-Prince of all four of the Gods without the downside of actually being a daemon. I can understand how GW would make him very powerful, though still not on par with an actual Daemon-Primarch.

As for the Silent King, he was the master of an empire that beat everyone else in the galaxy with insanely advanced sciences and then managed to both ensnare and shatter star gods. He has one powering his chair, just so he can float around. He is definitely supposed to be beyond "normal" Primarch level, he should be equivalent to the Emperor, if he was a playable character, just that the Silent King's abilities are powered by tech rather than psychic. 

There are precedents in the fluff for beings as powerful or beyond those of primarchs, its just that they are usually not seen directly in the physical universe in the current age, such as the Aeldari Gods, C'tan (not shards, but full Star Gods), and some of the Greater Daemons of Chaos. 

Of course. In fact, the only armies were that doesn't really make sense are IG, GSC, and T'au. IG are base humans, and most likely any new Loyalist Primarch (and Gulliman getting updated rules) will have something similar to Agent of Chaos to give bonuses to them. Genestealer cults and T'au don't really have a parallel to a Primarch, the cults are just an extension of Nids (who have big monsters, which is I guess close...) and the T'au don't really do the hero/lone agent of might thing (though I guess they could super-charge Farsight). I expect that in 10th ed we'll see the Drukari get their version (probably Vect in some sort of Silent King-style role), Harlequins will get an Avatar of the Laughing God, and armies like the AdMech (Cawl), SoB (Celestine), and Orks (Gazghul) will see their might heros get buffed up, maybe not to Primarch stats, but farther than they are currently.

Well I don't agree that every army should have a super character.

A Marine Captain full enough in Chaos power sure, it's Abaddon, but every army just jumping into the hero hammer, special super hero character? Morvann Vahl etc?

When everyone is special, no body is special. Just clumsy writing.

[Inquisitor_Lensoven]

6 hours ago, phandaal said:

This has to be the worst head-canon for the Lion outside of Rule 34.

The lore is clear that the Lion is completely devoted to the Emperor. There is no ambiguity in that. Also, the lore explicitly spells out exactly why the Dark Angels kept the fall of Caliban a secret.

Finally, Luther is the subject of his own novel and more lore that explicitly spells out that he was being kept within the Rock until he was recently freed by a Daemon incursion.

None of that is presented as in-universe opinion. It is presented as "here are some facts of the universe" from the writers to the readers.

Personally I don’t take anything outside of the codexes/BRB as canon any more, unless it’s supported in some way by one of those things.

people have pointed out how depending on the book power armor is no more protective than carapace armor seems to be. BL stories give plot armor to those who need it, even if it doesn’t make sense. Like how many space marines have Cain and his sidekick killed? Like 2 or 3 I think.

[Inquisitor_Lensoven]

3 minutes ago, Captain Idaho said:

Well I don't agree that every army should have a super character.

A Marine Captain full enough in Chaos power sure, it's Abaddon, but every army just jumping into the hero hammer, special super hero character? Morvann Vahl etc?

When everyone is special, no body is special. Just clumsy writing.

Vahl probably won’t be it.

it will be the living saint lady most likely.

it’s bad for the game and stupid business sense of only astartes get super duper heroes.

 

[phandaal]

30 minutes ago, Inquisitor_Lensoven said:

Personally I don’t take anything outside of the codexes/BRB as canon any more, unless it’s supported in some way by one of those things.

people have pointed out how depending on the book power armor is no more protective than carapace armor seems to be. BL stories give plot armor to those who need it, even if it doesn’t make sense. Like how many space marines have Cain and his sidekick killed? Like 2 or 3 I think.

True that. There is contradictory stuff out there, and just plain bad lore.

The stuff about the Lion and Luther has been consistent at least since Codex: Angels of Death. Maybe even before that.

[Captain Idaho]

32 minutes ago, Inquisitor_Lensoven said:

Vahl probably won’t be it.

it will be the living saint lady most likely.

it’s bad for the game and stupid business sense of only astartes get super duper heroes.

 

Hell I'd go the other way and reduce such characters. I wouldn't have had Guilliman return either.

[Orange Knight]

2 hours ago, Inquisitor_Lensoven said:

That doesn’t sound like they laid any ground work, it sounds like someone wanted girlyman back and they scoured the lore for anything that could possibly justify it retroactively, rather than writing new lore to hint at his return.

 

but that’s just my opinion 

Of course it does.

For over 10 years, there was an idea that the Primarch in stasis might be healing, and might one day return.

That is the definition of laying down the groundwork. They have done the same with the Lion and Russ.

Edited July 11, 2022 by Orange Knight

[Inquisitor_Lensoven]

5 minutes ago, Orange Knight said:

Of course it does.

For over 10 years, there was an idea that the Primarch is stasis might be healing, and might one day return.

That is the definition of laying down the groundwork. They have done the same with the Lion and Russ.

It was a throw away line that didn’t show a single hint of intention. Physical/visible wounds healing does not mean he would return as they never even confirmed the wounds were healing before bringing him back…and apparently they weren’t even actually healing to begin with so in the process of bringing girlyman back, they countered what you’re calling ground work as being incorrect.

Russ yea they have laid ground work by creating a prophecy of sorts that he would return someday.

the lion they’ve just said he was sleeping taking the biggest neatest nap ever, so he could easily return, but that’s not really laying any ground work 20+ years into the lore.

[Karhedron]

To be honest, the only Loyalist Primarchs they would have a hard time justifying are Sanguinius and Ferrus. All the others have some sort of return prophecy or at least vanished in mysterious circumstances. Heck, they even retconned Rogal Dorn's death on the Sword of Sacrilege to be that just a skeletal hand was recovered.

[Inquisitor_Lensoven]

3 minutes ago, Karhedron said:

To be honest, the only Loyalist Primarchs they would have a hard time justifying are Sanguinius and Ferrus. All the others have some sort of return prophecy or at least vanished in mysterious circumstances. Heck, they even retconned Rogal Dorn's death on the Sword of Sacrilege to be that just a skeletal hand was recovered.

Even sanguinius is easy to bring back.