Which non Primarch characters could take Logar in a fight?

[Marshal Mittens]

Logar seems pretty weedy. Some Characters like Siggy, Abbadon, and Khârn seem like they might stand a chance. Which do you think hand a chance to take him in a fight, on the table top?

[Aeternus]

Tabletop he still manages to win all those fights, just due to EW, sheer discrepancy in the profile, and brutal - though Abaddon comes closest, rather than Siggy as people may assume.

Sigismund v Lorgar

Lorgar strikes first, 6 attacks, 2.31 hits, 1.91 wounds with brutal(2), 1.91 wounds go through.

Sigismund strikes back, 4 attacks, 3.33 hits, 1.67 wounds, 1.25 wounds go through.

Lorgar then also has IWND(4+), so between that and his 6 wounds vs Sigi's 4, he'll win and not take too much damage. It'll take 2-3 goes though.

Lorgar does the same damage against pretty much any WS7, T4, 4++ character, though Abbadon and Khârn have more and less chance than Sigi respectively

Abaddon: 5 attacks, 4 hits, 3.89 wounds, 1.94 wounds go through - closer, and immune to the S8 ID, but still loses eventually with only 4 wounds vs Lorgar's striking first, 6 wounds and IWND

Khârn: 4 attacks, 2.67 hits, 1.48 wounds, 0.74 wounds go through - not close at all considering he'll get ID'd before he can strike.

 

Lorgar is definitely, on his base stats, one of the weaker Primarchs at beatsticking. But he's still a primarch. This is also completely discounting psychic powers or army buffing, both of which things Lorgar should be using. He can become a fairly top tier primarch at fighting even, provided you work around the rest of the WB rules - throw in Kor Phaeron and they both get WS7 and hatred(everything) - meaning Lorgar with brutal then usually beats down most other non-brutal WS7 primarchs, then the Dark Brethren right lets you juice him right up to WS8, WS9 or even WS10 if you feel like overkill. 

(Some of the math might be wrong ofc, in particular I'm suspicious of Lorgar's brutal, give me a shout if you notice anything)

Edited July 13, 2022 by Aeternus
Corrections

[SkimaskMohawk]

Lorgar was only ever weak in the novels, against the other primarchs.

On the table, in 1st, he was able to handle pretty much everything short of leviathans (which all primarchs sucked against) with his str 8 concussive weapon. And then you got Lorgar transfigured and started adding reliable psychic nonsense in.

Now, you don't even need to transfigure him. You just attack stuff and trust in your 4+ fnp, 4+ IWND and thaumaturgy to trivialize all return damage. In a straight duel, you wont have the retinue and 4+ fnp, but that's a rather hypothetical scenario.

You just can't expect anything with t6, 6 wounds, 6 attacks at ap 2, a 4+ invul and eternal warrior to lose to 3 or 4 wound characters without brutal.

@Aeternus your math is a bit off, since you forgot to give him the 6th attack from 2 ccw. On average he gets 2.31 hits and 1.91 wounds against ws7 t4 or less. He, more or less, two-rounds them.

 

 

[Aeternus]

@SkimaskMohawk Ah, that'd be it - knew there'd be something :P Cheers for the correction, must have assumed Illuminarum was two handed or something, teaches me to not read all the rules properly :P 

 

[Orange Knight]

In practice, because he has more wounds and will recover at least 1 in a duel that takes 3 turns, assuming average rolls, he will beat them all eventually. Not to mention he has higher initiative, so will typically get an extra turn of attacks against them.

Forgot about instant death with his Crozius. I guess Sigismund is the only one that won't be doubled out in a single round?

Edited July 13, 2022 by Orange Knight

[Aeternus]

31 minutes ago, Orange Knight said:

In practice, because he has more wounds and will recover at least 1 in a duel that takes 3 turns, assuming average rolls, he will beat them all eventually. Not to mention he has higher initiative, so will typically get an extra turn of attacks against them.

Forgot about instant death with his Crozius. I guess Sigismund is the only one that won't be doubled out in a single round?

Abaddon has battle-hardened(1) special rule which saves him from being ID'd from anything short of S10, but believe apart from him and sigi, I think most other top tier astartes duelists would just get doubled out.

[Arkhanist]

Khârn gets 7 attacks; he has rampage (3) which gives 3 extra attacks when outnumbered, which includes bulky. Lorgar has Primarch, which adds bulky (4). Also +2A on the charge being WE, but assuming not counting those.

Given you'll rarely see him without Gorechild, they're at S5, AP2, shred (reroll wounds) and murderous strike 3 - ID on a wound roll of 3+, not that it matters when Lorgar has EW.

As you say though, he's very likely going to get ID'd before he even gets to strike, so it makes little difference. He's an infantry blender, not a Primarch killer.

 

 

 

Edited July 13, 2022 by Arkhanist

[SkimaskMohawk]

55 minutes ago, Arkhanist said:

Khârn gets 7 attacks; he has rampage (3) which gives 3 extra attacks when outnumbered, which includes bulky. Lorgar has Primarch, which adds bulky (4). Also +2A on the charge being WE, but assuming not counting those.

Given you'll rarely see him without Gorechild, they're at S5, AP2, shred (reroll wounds) and murderous strike 3 - ID on a wound roll of 3+, not that it matters when Lorgar has EW.

As you say though, he's very likely going to get ID'd before he even gets to strike, so it makes little difference. He's an infantry blender, not a Primarch killer.

 

 

 

Even if Khârn charged and got to strike, those 9 attacks average 1.6 unsaved wounds.

No marine character can duel a primarch. It doesn't matter how stacked they seem, or how able they are to plow through everything else.

[Aeternus]

1 hour ago, Arkhanist said:

Khârn gets 7 attacks; he has rampage (3) which gives 3 extra attacks when outnumbered, which includes bulky. Lorgar has Primarch, which adds bulky (4). Also +2A on the charge being WE, but assuming not counting those.

Given you'll rarely see him without Gorechild, they're at S5, AP2, shred (reroll wounds) and murderous strike 3 - ID on a wound roll of 3+, not that it matters when Lorgar has EW.

As you say though, he's very likely going to get ID'd before he even gets to strike, so it makes little difference. He's an infantry blender, not a Primarch killer.

 

 

 

Was unsure if bulky worked for outnumbering for rampage or not, (somewhat ironically given my legion trait :P) but was using the gorechild profile.

As skimask and you both note tho, throw in all those attacks and he's still losing. Primarchs only really lose to highly stacked units, multiple dreads, or other primarchs in cc, and many of those fights still tie up the majority or excess of the length of the game :P 

Edited July 13, 2022 by Aeternus

[Claws and Effect]

Sigismund will get more wounds through if it's a challenge, with him forcing rerolls of successful invuln saves. 

[Aeternus]

8 hours ago, Claws and Effect said:

Sigismund will get more wounds through if it's a challenge, with him forcing rerolls of successful invuln saves. 

Included that in the above calculations - otherwise non challenge it'd be about 0.835 wounds

[Canadian_F_H]

Maybe one of the dreadnought characters though...

 

Anybody done the math with a Contemptor Dreadnought character from FotA RoW? Or Rylanor? (Is Rylanor still in the game?)