FW questions

[Inquisitor_Lensoven]

Is there a reason FW stuff is resin instead of plastic?

why is it so expensive? A malcador of any variant is more expensive than a baneblade.

 

[BLACK BLΠFLY]

Originally Forgeworld could make large models like Titans and took over from Armorcast. Technology is catching up since then though.

[Inquisitor_Lensoven]

5 minutes ago, Black Blow Fly said:

Originally Forgeworld could make large models like Titans and took over from Armorcast. Technology is catching up since then though.

That doesn’t answer any of my questions though lol

[BLACK BLΠFLY]

GW couldn’t make large scale plastic models like Titans back then. The manufacturing process is part of the cost I’ve heard.

[Brother_Angelus]

FW sell specialist miniatures in lower volumes than the main GW lines, so both sides of the equation are effected by economic principles. Demand for the Malcador is low so they don't invest in plastic molds, which are more expensive to create but allow larger batches before replacement. The greater demand and production numbers of the baneblade offset the more expensive injection mold and further dilute the fixed costs of production, allowing it to be cheaper.

They can't justify a large investment in a mold good for 20k units if they're only selling 1k a year. If you're only selling 1k units a year other costs associated with production, warehousing and shipping are proportionally larger too.

It's a strategic choice of if/when to transition specialist figure to plastic, as we're currently seeing with the Heresy line. Demand can also be manipulated by publishing stronger rules...

[Inquisitor_Lensoven]

28 minutes ago, Brother_Angelus said:

FW sell specialist miniatures in lower volumes than the main GW lines, so both sides of the equation are effected by economic principles. Demand for the Malcador is low so they don't invest in plastic molds, which are more expensive to create but allow larger batches before replacement. The greater demand and production numbers of the baneblade offset the more expensive injection mold and further dilute the fixed costs of production, allowing it to be cheaper.

They can't justify a large investment in a mold good for 20k units if they're only selling 1k a year. If you're only selling 1k units a year other costs associated with production, warehousing and shipping are proportionally larger too.

It's a strategic choice of if/when to transition specialist figure to plastic, as we're currently seeing with the Heresy line. Demand can also be manipulated by publishing stronger rules...

For their more reasonably sized models it seems like the price and material keeps them from selling more models.

I’ve heard/seen some horror stories about warped resin, and if I’m paying $160+ for a model I expect the parts to be straight and smooth.

I doubt FW will provide replacement parts for parts that come warped…

[Brother_Angelus]

8 minutes ago, Inquisitor_Lensoven said:

For their more reasonably sized models it seems like the price and material keeps them from selling more models.

I’ve heard/seen some horror stories about warped resin, and if I’m paying $160+ for a model I expect the parts to be straight and smooth.

I doubt FW will provide replacement parts for parts that come warped…

That's the whole catch-22. Would they sell more if the model was plastic and cheaper? Maybe. Would they sell enough extra to justify the opportunity cost of bringing x, y  or z model across from resin vs developing something new, or transitioning a different model? Also maybe.

FW can and do replace parts where there is a manufacturing defect, but all of their kits carry a disclaimer that they are advanced models that require modelling skill to fix and build. If someone doesn't want to deal with it, they're not under any obligation to buy FWs stuff.

Edited July 14, 2022 by Brother_Angelus

[N1SB]

I've been meaning to share this in lieu of Horus Heresy 2.0 plastic kits.  Resin vs. Plastic Injection Molding is a Total Cost of Operations issue, i.e. profitability crossed with engineering.  It's ultimately a fixed and variable cost analysis issue.

Resin, like ForgeWorld stuff, is actually cheaper if you expect to sell a smaller number of a certain model, like real collector boutique stuff (which is what FW used to do), but more expensive for a large print run.  Why?  The mold they use for resin is cheap to make, but you need more time and skill for people to pry the resin minis out without breaking them.

Plastic Injection Molding is the opposite, it's cheaper for large volume production, but cost-ineffective for a small run.  What's the difference?  The die-cast steel mold costs a lot to make, but once you got it, you put it into your plastic injection molding machine and it just churns out way more, way faster, with only a few engineers and packagers.

To sum up, Resin has low fixed costs and high variable costs good for small runs, Plastic Injection Molding has high fixed costs and low variable costs designed for large runs.

(I might do a chart later to illustrate this.)

Games Workshop almost certainly decided for itself a rough number of units they have to sell, X, to justify the setup cost for Plastic Injection Molding.  They can divide the cost of that die-cast steel mold by X, "If we can sell X, it's worth it to go through that cost."  To do so, they predict how many units they'll sell, like we'll buy Y units.

The idea of Y > X is simple.  The tricky part is predicting then justifying the Y units that GW thinks it'll sell, to cross that Rubicon of X from Resin to Plastic Injection Molding.  If you made something cheaper in plastic...it'd sell more!  It's a chicken-egg Catch-22 situation.  But assuming GW is half-way competent, and I believe it to be at the very least 60% competent, like at least a D-student (and in fact they've vastly improved in recent years, if they were a student they'd get a little ribbon), they actually play out all these scenarios in their decision making process.

However, for a lot of stuff, even that tricky prediction and justification process is a lot easier now than years ago, which is why HH 2.0 has so much plastic stuff.

This chart is GW's overall revenue and profitability.  What's useful here is to compare overall sales from what GW was used to pre-2016 (before GW revamped itself with regular news on Warhammer Community, in-store events, etc.) and now.  The way it operates now is roughly 3 times more than what it used to for the longest time (£360 million annual revenue vs. £120 million).  It's like you throw a random idea, before 2016 if you'd expect to sell Y, now you'd expect it to sell 3Y.

Nothing succeeds like success.  Because GW made more money, of course they got the cash to justify more expensive capital expenditure projects, but GW also feels more confident experimenting more, since the broader playerbase is there.  So, hey, let's make some Epic-scale models like Adeptus Titanicus and Aeronautica Imperialis and see how they do, let's even give Squats another try.

Thus, it's much easier to justify a lot of Plastic Injection Mold projects TODAY than years ago...but NOT all.  Here's an example, even in HH 2.0.

Mark VI Beakie Armour that came with HH 2.0, which can be used by all Legions, you can easily justify for Plastic Injection Molding, especially with how big the Hobby has grown, but the costs have stayed about the same.  However, Legion-specific helmets and pauldrons, what GW calls "Heads & Shoulders", there's 18 Legions so theoretically roughly 1/18 HH 2.0 players will buy any specific ones, is staying as Resin.  The predicted Beakies sales cross that X threshold, any particular Legion's Head & Shoulders do not.

That's how I'd explain it to all our Brothers who may be members of B&C and to non-members who stumble across this forum, thanks for reading, but I want to end with just how we think of our own army lists.  Fixed cost and variable cost analysis aaargh, let's talk HH 2.0, because it's not just the maths, it's the gut feeling we have.

Leviathan Dreadnoughts are awesome in Horus Heresy.  But would you take one in a 1,000 points game?  Some would say, no, not worth it.  But why not?  It's the same stats in a 1,000 point game vs. 2,000 points, and you know it.  Well, you need more Line Troops 1st, the opponent won't be taking things to justify most Leviathan builds (all this is true), etc.  Fine, at what point would you add a Leviathan Dreadnought?  Maybe you add 1 at 1,500 points, then 2 at 2,000 points assuming you're not taking a Primarch?

GW also has this feeling out process.  Of course they see the benefits of plastic kits, the cheaper costs, and that players want to buy more than if it was in Resin.  But sometimes you just can't fit a Leviathan Dreadnought into your Legion list and it sucks.

[WrathOfTheLion]

As said, for units with lower production volume, they can justify resin when they couldn't a plastic mold.

For pricing, it costs them less to produce the mold, but more to produce the overall miniature, so the price is higher per unit. They're selling less, and the costs are more per model, so the overhead costs need to be made up over fewer sales. They're still wanting to make a profit off of it as well, so obviously that is accounted for as well.

If a kit makes sense to move to plastic, it's less expensive for them to produce across the board, excepting the initial investment in the molds.

------------

To comment on upgrades, etc. for 30k, right now they're still feeling it out. They know they can easily and safely justify most general faction kits in plastic, but they're still hesitant to further advance that to any more specific stuff yet. This may change depending on success, likely depending on more sustained success.

[Inquisitor_Lensoven]

24 minutes ago, Brother_Angelus said:

That's the whole catch-22. Would they sell more if the model was plastic and cheaper? Maybe. Would they sell enough extra to justify the opportunity cost of bringing x, y  or z model across from resin vs developing something new, or transitioning a different model? Also maybe.

FW can and do replace parts where there is a manufacturing defect, but all of their kits carry a disclaimer that they are advanced models that require modelling skill to fix and build. If someone doesn't want to deal with it, they're not under any obligation to buy FWs stuff.

And that’s why I probably won’t ever have a malcador lol.

I don’t want to deal with fixing warped resin 

[BLACK BLΠFLY]

A lot of practical knowledge here !!

[MARK0SIAN]

8 hours ago, Inquisitor_Lensoven said:

And that’s why I probably won’t ever have a malcador lol.

I don’t want to deal with fixing warped resin 

FWIW I’ve had good experience of their customer service when replacing miscast or broken pieces. Plus a lot of issues can be sorted by a bath in hot water for the piece.

It’s also worth noting that some particular kits are generally fine with minimal warping or problems whereas some kits like the fire raptor are notorious for being a nightmare to build. I don’t own a Malcador but it may fall into the first category so see if you can find some people who’ve actually got one already and see what their direct experience is.

 

[Inquisitor_Lensoven]

2 minutes ago, MARK0SIAN said:

FWIW I’ve had good experience of their customer service when replacing miscast or broken pieces. Plus a lot of issues can be sorted by a bath in hot water for the piece.

It’s also worth noting that some particular kits are generally fine with minimal warping or problems whereas some kits like the fire raptor are notorious for being a nightmare to build. I don’t own a Malcador but it may fall into the first category so see if you can find some people who’ve actually got one already and see what their direct experience is.

 

I can’t really justify it at $160 regardless 

[MARK0SIAN]

15 minutes ago, Inquisitor_Lensoven said:

I can’t really justify it at $160 regardless 

Yeah I don’t blame you. FW were expensive before the latest price increase, now it’s just absurd. This latest round of increases has definitely tipped most of their stuff into unjustifiable territory for myself too.

[Emperor Ming]

But resin is cheaper than plastic, isn't it

[Redcomet]

6 minutes ago, Emperor Ming said:

But resin is cheaper than plastic, isn't it

Maybe. But labor costs for resin production is higher. 

[Karhedron]

It is all to do with fixed costs (the cost of making the moulds) and unit costs (the cost of making each model). Resin moulds are cheap to produce (low fixed cost) but have a limited lifespan and a relatively high unit cost. Injection moulds have a high fixed cost but once you have them you can bang out tens of thousands of sprues quickly and cheaply (low unit cost).

The calculus is whether GW thinks they can sell enough of unit X to recover the cost of making the mould in the first place. If they think they can sell tens of thousands then that unit might be profitable in plastic. If they think they can only sell a few thousand then it might not be profitable in plastic but might be viable in resin. If they think it will sell less than 1000 then the unit probably isn't worth making.

Plastic units will probably sell more than resin ones but the question is whether the difference in sales is enough to justify the extra startup costs. For units like the Sicaran, Contemptor and Leviathan, GW have clearly decided they can shift enough of these units to switch them from resin to plastic.

[GreenScorpion]

There are several factors that influence the higher price of resin products (whether GW/FW prices are fair based on their actual production cost is a different topic).

Plastic injection:

• High mould cost (typically in the thousands to tens of thousands nowadays) leading to high initial cost
• 1 mould allows tens of thousands or even hundreds of thousands of injection runs
• Production is usually automatic (except replacing mould plates and removing finished product, most activities are done by the injection machine)
• Producing a single sprue will take a few seconds for the machine, high hourly production even with a single mould
• Low rejection rate of parts
• Low size variability of finished parts (at typical working temperatures)
• Low overall production cost (mostly plastic cost and power for the machine)
• Worth it for large production runs

Resin based production:

• Low mould cost (hundreds in most cases, but varies based on mould materials and size)
• 1 mould allows dozens or hundreds of casting runs (mould can break after some time of use)
• Production can be somewhat automatic in some cases but is mostly manual, especially the removal of finished parts
• Resin takes some time to solidify and cure completely (can take more than 24h depending on the resin), so low weekly production with a single mould
• High rejection of parts due to various issues related with the curing process of resin
• Resin may vary size during the curing period or even after finished (warping of pieces) due to temperature, humidity and other factors
• Medium/High overall production cost (mould maintenance, material and manual labour costs)
• Worth it for small production runs, including prototypes

[Karhedron]

Actually the cost of a high quality injection moulding can be around £100K these days, particularly for the long-lifespan moulds GW favours.

[m_r_parker]

Having spoken to some of the FW team at various HH Weekenders and FW Open Days, the main cost factor for them is definitely human costs. Resin moulds have no-where near the longevity of plastic ones, and depending on the complexity of pieces being cast the mould can last in the ten's of casts before needing to be re-made with Character Series casts typically being less than 10. Resin manufacture requires people manually mixing resin, pouring resin, manually removing casts from the moulds (without breaking the soft moulds), all of which is very slow compared to plastic-injection moulds and far less automated. There's also a higher rate of rejection from quality control due to miscasts where the mould has slipped and the resin not have been mixed correctly. This all increase the amount of human work effort per model, making the resin cost more expensive than plastic.

As mentioned above, the cost of plastic moulds are much more expensive than their resin counterparts. I've heard a figure of £1,000 per component on the sprue as being an average figure, and with lots of recent unit boxes coming in with ~100 components so £100k per sprue feels about right. They're a lot quicker to cast, a lot more reliable, have less QC issues, longer longevity and require much less human interaction. So despite their initial high cost, they end up costing less per unit produced than resin counterparts.

I think it's also worth noting that up until a few years ago FW and GW were less integrated, and as such FW would only leverage pre-existing plastic GW kits and create everything else in resin. Anyone who remembers the initial run of Heresy products (including the Badab War releases, which I like to think of a test-run of viability of a Heresy product) that you could only buy basic marines in resin, and Deimos Rhinos were a regular 40k plastic Rhino with resin upgrade pieces. With internal business complications of trying to maintain dedicated FW revenue streams without giving products over to GW for plastic production was not high on the list of FW management. Only when Specialist Games began to get releases, with FW teams being incorporated into the over GW Studio do you really start to see FW making use of plastics (such as Necromunda, Blood Bowl, Titanicus) with Resin being left for those upgrades and kits that are either cost-innefective or technically infeasible for plastic production. 

 

So yeah, large full-resin kits like the Malcador are very expensive. 

[GreenScorpion]

25 minutes ago, Karhedron said:

Actually the cost of a high quality injection moulding can be around £100K these days, particularly for the long-lifespan moulds GW favours.

Yes but those 100k€ moulds also allow closer to 1 million production runs instead of 100k or so runs, so the point remains mostly the same.

[Kastor Krieg]

FW is a boutique store version of an already overpriced store in a very pricy hobby. That's all there is to it.

[Robbienw]

Let us not forget, although plastic models have come a long way, you can still realise greater fine detail in resin.

[Rik Lightstar]

I suspect that GW have also recently* found a viable alternative for the very expensive steel moulds that is being used for the limited release plastics that have been turning up for Events, Warhammer Plus, Store Birthdays, etc.

These models are likely made from a lower life-span mould that can be produced more cheaply for 10k-20k units.

I don't know enough about the industry and process to know what material options there would be for this though.

* For recently read "in the last 5-10 years"

Rik

[Closet Skeleton]

Resin moulds aren't cheap because they only last about a week. Some of FW's bigger models might even be single use.

On 7/14/2022 at 3:15 PM, GreenScorpion said:

• Worth it for small production runs, including prototypes

3d printing will have completely replaced any form of moulded prototyping.

10 hours ago, Rik Lightstar said:

I suspect that GW have also recently* found a viable alternative for the very expensive steel moulds that is being used for the limited release plastics that have been turning up for Events, Warhammer Plus, Store Birthdays, etc.

These models are likely made from a lower life-span mould that can be produced more cheaply for 10k-20k units.

I don't know enough about the industry and process to know what material options there would be for this though.

* For recently read "in the last 5-10 years"

Rik

Basically its a artificial scarcity issue. Its easier to cost a product when you know it will sell out. I doubt they're that profitable though.