20 man Tac Squads and Ld checks

[bushman101]

In the few games I've had, I had some of my squads lose combat and get cut down due to Sweeping Advances.

Now that I am painting up my big Tact squad, I'm wondering about the risk of possibly losing a large squad in such away. In context, I usually don't run squads larger than 12 models

With such a large squad, I know they will be a priority for Reactions to help against charges. And a IC will help with leadership and initiative checks.

I'm wondering about experiences others have had and possible stats for/against such a squad to help gather my thoughts.

[Cdp1492]

2 hours ago, bushman101 said:

In the few games I've had, I had some of my squads lose combat and get cut down due to Sweeping Advances.

Now that I am painting up my big Tact squad, I'm wondering about the risk of possibly losing a large squad in such away. In context, I usually don't run squads larger than 12 models

With such a large squad, I know they will be a priority for Reactions to help against charges. And a IC will help with leadership and initiative checks.

I'm wondering about experiences others have had and possible stats for/against such a squad to help gather my thoughts.

Well for tactical marines I wouldn't worry so much. They get stubborn (so they'll ignore any mods to leadership) and 6+ feel no pain for being on an objective and that should help keep them around despite losing combats.  If you want to make them even more durable throw an Apothacary in there and make the feel no pain a 4+ when next to an objectice. I've been using 20 man blobs of tacticals with chainbayonets and an Apothecary to great success in my night lords to hold back points and trigger my legions ability. Just keep them on those objectives and you'll be fine. 

[Gorgoff]

A Herald helps as well or a Master of the Signal

[Brother Kraskor]

6 minutes ago, Gorgoff said:

A Herald helps as well or a Master of the Signal

I'm not actually sure either of these help. Tacs already have Line, I'd sooner put my Herald in eg. a big unit of Terminators that don't ordinarily get Line so they can score. Yes the Fearless is nice but for Tacs when they already get Stubborn on Objectives? Not worth it.

And Master of Signals. Is that for the +1BS? Because you can get that via a Techmarine without wasting an HQ slot. And even then +1BS on Tacs? There are much better units for this (Heavy Support Squads for example). Is it for the Augury Scanner? You can also get this on a Techmarine (or on a Heavy Support Squad...). 

[MichaelCarmine]

I think @Gorgoff is reffering to the Buff of the Legion Standard in giving every unit within 6" LD10, rather than the "line" bonus. also works with a Command Squad, since they too have a Legion Standard.

EDIT: You could, just for example, put a Herald into a TSS/HSS behind your tacticals and so giving the Squad LINE and every unit in 6" arround him LD10 for Morale- and Pinning-checks

Also, the Master of Signal has a special rule, which gives you a once-per-turn ability to use his LD (or the LD of a model in the unit he is part of) for a Morale or Pinning-check, one of your units is called upon to make, regardless where he is on the Battlefield.

Edited July 14, 2022 by MichaelCarmine

[Gorgoff]

13 hours ago, Brother Kraskor said:

I'm not actually sure either of these help. Tacs already have Line, I'd sooner put my Herald in eg. a big unit of Terminators that don't ordinarily get Line so they can score. Yes the Fearless is nice but for Tacs when they already get Stubborn on Objectives? Not worth it.

Only three of the six standard missions actual have mission objectives. So in half of the missions your blob has no stubborn and no FNP. 

I wouldn't count on that bonus. Besides the Herald gives you fearless, which is better than stubborn anyway, and if you position him right, he buffes onother unit.

13 hours ago, Brother Kraskor said:

And Master of Signals. Is that for the +1BS? Because you can get that via a Techmarine without wasting an HQ slot. And even then +1BS on Tacs? There are much better units for this (Heavy Support Squads for example). Is it for the Augury Scanner? You can also get this on a Techmarine (or on a Heavy Support Squad...). 

You should read the rules before you get sarcastic with other players, you know? 

Like @MichaelCarmine already said it is his special rule which helps here even if he isn't in that unit. So he can buff the BS of a Heavy Support Squad and help them at the same time. 

[Mandragola]

My take on this is that yes, your 20-man tactical squads are going to get swept sometimes, and that’s ok. You lose a squad worth ~275 points if they have an apothecary. It probably costs your opponent more than that to kill them. 

Heresy is a deliberately brutal ruleset. Marines are meant to die in large numbers and they do. Actually, tactical marines are a tough proposition because they’re durable for their price (especially with a potential 4+++) and their reactions can be very nasty for infantry.

instead of throwing more points at tactical squads, you could throw more tactical squads, and other stuff, at the enemy. That’ll be my approach. A tactical marine costs 10 points and by the time they’re likely to get swept there probably won’t be many of them left, meaning it’s not worth a high investment to save them.

[SkimaskMohawk]

Yea, it's not quite as simple as "don't worry, the unit has stubborn". As @Gorgoff said, half the terrible core missions don't even use objective markers. You then have to actually be close to that objective with your blob, so if the spread and deployment isn't favourable then you can have trouble accessing Heart. And even then, if they kill the seargent off in a challenge (or you refuse), the unit is LD 7; essentially a coin flip to stick around if they lose.

If you want to invest in blobs of marines with their mid tier leadership, you definitely need to have contingencies with your consuls.

[Mandragola]

I’m not actually saying you should rely on stubborn LD7. Rather, I’m saying that you should accept losing a 20-man squad sometimes. That’s certainly my plan. I can get 20 guys with suspects, vexilla, vox and apothecary for 275 points. It’s not really the end of the world to lose a unit like that.  In fact there are situations where I’d prefer that the unit ran away so I could shoot their attacker, rather than staying locked in combat so I can’t.
 

It’s obviously better if they escape and subsequently rally but by not stuffing the units with Heralds I can afford more bodies and guns. The heralds are at risk of being sniped anyway, or having some other terrible thing happen to them. 

[SkimaskMohawk]

Definitely didn't mean to seem like I was replying to you @Mandragola. As you say, getting swept has always been on the table for giant units without fearless, and the new pricing for pure ranged tacticals make them very cheap to throw down on the table (with a corresponding low impact when they die).

That being said, the Herald projects a 6" aura of LD 10, so you can help multiple units from just one.

 

 

 

 

Edited July 16, 2022 by SkimaskMohawk

[Mandragola]

Heralds are certainly an interesting HQ option, and a cheap upgrade from a centurion. but adding 80 points to a tactical squad is still a major price hike without much increase in output. 
 

I think their best use might be making their unit Line - which tacticals already are. That said, I suppose they can move between units if that’s helpful. You only need stuff to be alone at the end of the game after all. Maybe he should have a jump pack or something. 
 

there’s quite a good argument for giving a herald a shotgun or nemesis bolter, since he’s relentless and has fear(1). A single concussive wound, even if saved, could make an enormous difference. 

[SkimaskMohawk]

You're not quite getting what I'm saying. The Herald joins an elite unit like terminators or vets or whatever. That unit is behind your tacs, but within 6" to benefit from the banner aura of LD 10.

[Mandragola]

Ahh that's interesting. I had a feeling that stubborn units were only stubborn up to their own LD, so the Herald wouldn't help much in that situation, but I was wrong. I'm probably either making that up completely or remembering an old edition of 40k. What you're describing sounds like a good interaction on paper, though in reality it can be tricky to keep units close together like that.

[LameBeard]

Who has access to nemesis bolter? I thought they were Ultramarine Nemesis Destoyers only? 

[Loquille]

11 minutes ago, LameBeard said:

Who has access to nemesis bolter? I thought they were Ultramarine Nemesis Destoyers only? 

Quite a few units, as it's the new name for the Sniper Rifle.  
Praetors,
Centurions,
Veteran Squads,
Recon Squads,
Scouts, 
And Seekers.  

 

The Nemesis Destroyers get a Mortifier bolter. 

Edited July 20, 2022 by Loquille