Black Rage cured..? (For now)

[Dont-Be-Haten]

Spoilers ahead regarding Darkness in the Blood.

I've always enjoyed the lore behind the black rage. Now that they have delved deeper into how it is a spiritual rather than physical flaw to the brothers of the blood.

Reading darkness in the Blood I may have misunderstood this part but with the spoiler ahead how does it pertain to the black rage?

Spoiler

With Mephiston's transcendence into the black angel, the holder of the rage and being the now controller of its spread has the black rage been culled until he dips into that power? There is a line near the end of the book that talks about there is no more rage.

So what do you guys think?

[MasterOfAardvarks]

I doubt we will see this change on the tabletop, and if the rage is affected by this, I can see geedubs saying that it is 'lessened', or that marines can recover from it, rather than that it is gone from all BA. It is too evocative and tied to deeply to the BA at this point to rip away fully for many, they would be killing a sacred elephant for not much gain.

 

Now if BA got a Primarch-esque model from this- given exactly what happened, I can see an argument for this- then I would be happy, but I doubt any new models or rules will come of this change. Though the lore behind the Rage might change in our next Codex.

[Dont-Be-Haten]

The whole point is the choice.

Spoiler

The angel of blood and vitae specifically shows what would happen if he had not accepted the curse. The Brothers in blood would be daemons in everything but name.

As he tastes the edges of the black rage and the transcended demi-god he has become he talks about the risk of tapping into the latent power and what it might mean for all of the sires of Sanguinius.

That all being said, I care less about the table top and more about what the real implications are for the future of the scions of Sanguinius. 

No one knows but the individual in spoilers what can and may actually happen.

Edited July 17, 2022 by Dont-Be-Haten

[Majkhel]

I believe that Rage is not and cannot be controlled by Mephiston any more than Thirst was by Sanguinius - it's a matter of presence obviously, but also proximity. 
It is quite possible that Mephiston could influence and even suppress Rage in those battle-brothers near him. But he himself said in the book that "the warp is in us all". Although he is enormously mighty, he cannot be everywhere even considering his immense psychic projection capabilities. And each time he taps into the Black Angel's power, Rage will flow and it will come down to each battle-brothers's own will-power to fight it.

I personally like this a lot - slim hopes and desperate gambits in ever more desperate times. Very 40k-ish

Edited July 18, 2022 by Majkhel

[Dont-Be-Haten]

 I agree. But we know the Sanguinor has shown himself to chapters other than the Blood Angels. When battle brothers need him the most, he appears.

Spoiler

This is also answered in the book as Sanguinius made the Sanguinor But what happens if the transcended mephiston dies? He is the literal embodiment of the rage now! 

On another note, I think Qvo hinting that primaris are closer to perfect astartes and functionally immortal was a big reveal too!

 

[Karhedron]

My impression from the book is that Mephiston alleviates the Black Rage but does not entirely cure it. As long as he holds out, he buys the Blood Angels breathing space but not a total respite. There is also the risk that if he ever falls they all will.

[Inquisitor_Lensoven]

On 7/17/2022 at 2:55 PM, Dont-Be-Haten said:

Spoilers ahead regarding Darkness in the Blood.

I've always enjoyed the lore behind the black rage. Now that they have delved deeper into how it is a spiritual rather than physical flaw to the brothers of the blood.

Reading darkness in the Blood I may have misunderstood this part but with the spoiler ahead how does it pertain to the black rage?

  Hide contents

With Mephiston's transcendence into the black angel, the holder of the rage and being the now controller of its spread has the black rage been culled until he dips into that power? There is a line near the end of the book that talks about there is no more rage.

So what do you guys think?

I haven’t read the book yet, but I doubt it.

the rage is too ingrained into our identity to be done away with.

remember at the end of DoB they had also implied the rage and thirst were cured in primaris as well, yet here we are. 

[Inquisitor_Lensoven]

9 hours ago, Karhedron said:

My impression from the book is that Mephiston alleviates the Black Rage but does not entirely cure it. As long as he holds out, he buys the Blood Angels breathing space but not a total respite. There is also the risk that if he ever falls they all will.

Oh god emperor that’s a terrifying thought.

 

[MegaVolt87]

I think there should be a monkey paw with the black rage. It manifests far less, but the red thirst starts to become more prevalent in older Astartes. In the GC and HH, there was a lot of attrition to really cover up the red thirst breakouts well when you think about it. 40k Astartes vets are quite long lived in comparison, due to a combo of experience, proven biology and just by being BA as reasons for that longevity. Opens up room for infamous individuals, units within the chapter. 

[Majkhel]

15 hours ago, Dont-Be-Haten said:

 I agree. But we know the Sanguinor has shown himself to chapters other than the Blood Angels. When battle brothers need him the most, he appears.

  Hide contents

This is also answered in the book as Sanguinius made the Sanguinor But what happens if the transcended mephiston dies? He is the literal embodiment of the rage now! 

On another note, I think Qvo hinting that primaris are closer to perfect astartes and functionally immortal was a big reveal too!

 

Very interesting thoughts. Sanguinor has practically fully transcended corporeal limitations in terms of space (and probably time as well). Mephiston is yet bound to a single physical body although his psyker status alleviates that to some (possibly growing) degree. There is definitely room for him to develop: adjust to his new body capabilities and near/practical-immortality, making the power of the Black Angel his own and using it 'safely',...

If he dies, there would definitely be a surge of the Rage across all Sanguinius' scions of unimaginable proportions. All bounds removed, all afflicted. A literal disaster of such magnitude, that I would venture a guess that those few (or maybe only one?) that emerge from it might actually be cured from it.

[Blindhamster]

My understanding was that no, it isn’t cured. More a case that if anything, fighting against it as hard was perhaps making it worse and mephistons acceptance has simply slowed it. 
 

We essentially have two angels, one covers the darkness in the blood (mephiston) the other the nobility (sanguinor). 
 

I honestly think at some point Dante’s story will progress with him being the balance. It fits his arc as we have seen it. 
 

I don’t think the flaws will ever be removed as they’re what make the blood angels what they are, the flaw is what allows them to be as noble as they are. Even during the heresy they weren’t noble and as self sacrificing as they are by the 41st millennium 

[lansalt]

I agree with @Blindhamster  , but there's a weird wild card about the BA's future introduced in the last Bequin novel by Abnett:

Spoiler

Animal-minded feral naked BA marines with wings like Sanguinius fighting daemons next to the Eye of Terror. It's not clear if they're an unlocked evolution of BA geneseed, or a weird experiment by the "Yellow King" in that novel.

 

[Blindhamster]

1 hour ago, lansalt said:

I agree with @Blindhamster  , but there's a weird wild card about the BA's future introduced in the last Bequin novel by Abnett:

  Hide contents

Animal-minded feral naked BA marines with wings like Sanguinius fighting daemons next to the Eye of Terror. It's not clear if they're an unlocked evolution of BA geneseed, or a weird experiment by the "Yellow King" in that novel.

 

Well… erm… I don’t know what to make of that. Lol

[lansalt]

2 minutes ago, Blindhamster said:

Well… erm… I don’t know what to make of that. Lol

Don't worry, nobody does 

[Blindhamster]

Spoiler

Personally, I could potentially get behind wing boys as a special unit equivalent to the wulfen. If done right, conceptually it’s even more tragic - the ones who get closest to the primarch physically also descend into the curses the worst/most. Epitomising the concept of angelic berserkers.  

 

[Majkhel]

In there it's also mentioned that Thirst could be psychic in nature as a null can bring one under it's influence back... which is contradictory to Thirst being a genetic trait designed by the Emperor... It's an odd piece indeed.

But your idea Blindhamster is fantastic

[Blindhamster]

At least one person thinks I have good ideas :D

[Dont-Be-Haten]

I think the most important thing is the black rage has been curbed to an extent. We know that's what Corbula has been trying to find the answer to for decades.

I think it is important to the reader to understand that many within the blood feel the rage on the precipice and that some can still quell it. The addition of a new figure head to help maintain the rage us of great importance.

[Inquisitor_Lensoven]

8 hours ago, lansalt said:

I agree with @Blindhamster  , but there's a weird wild card about the BA's future introduced in the last Bequin novel by Abnett:

  Hide contents

Animal-minded feral naked BA marines with wings like Sanguinius fighting daemons next to the Eye of Terror. It's not clear if they're an unlocked evolution of BA geneseed, or a weird experiment by the "Yellow King" in that novel.

 

Either way sounds like an incoming money grab from GW in the next 5-10 years…and I’m not even mad about it. Give me my mutant bloody bois.

[Inquisitor_Lensoven]

4 hours ago, Majkhel said:

In there it's also mentioned that Thirst could be psychic in nature as a null can bring one under it's influence back... which is contradictory to Thirst being a genetic trait designed by the Emperor... It's an odd piece indeed.

But your idea Blindhamster is fantastic

To be fair, it can be psychic and genetic at the same time. 
after all no normal humans nor other SM has ever been known to be afflicted by it.

[Majkhel]

4 hours ago, Inquisitor_Lensoven said:

To be fair, it can be psychic and genetic at the same time...

Fair point. The whole idea of Primarchs being Primarchs is that their creation was not pure genetics, but genetics intertwined with warp manipulation. Even in those Primarchs that officially did not have psychic abilities. And Sanguinius definitely did.

If Thirst is 'backed up' with the warp in Blood Angels genetic structure, then it is no wonder that Cawl was not able to remove it. 

[Inquisitor_Lensoven]

10 hours ago, Majkhel said:

Fair point. The whole idea of Primarchs being Primarchs is that their creation was not pure genetics, but genetics intertwined with warp manipulation. Even in those Primarchs that officially did not have psychic abilities. And Sanguinius definitely did.

If Thirst is 'backed up' with the warp in Blood Angels genetic structure, then it is no wonder that Cawl was not able to remove it. 

I was just thinking that they could simply have a gene that is warp/psychic sensitive, that can be activated by each blood angels’ own latent psychic ability.