Post-2016/"New" 40K Fluff: Wasted Potential, But Not Beyond Repair.

[Evil Eye]

And so the time has come for me to write a veritable essay on the slightly controversial (6 years later!) topic of 40K's new fluff direction, developments, and the future of the setting. I'd like to preface this by saying this isn't meant to be an attack on anyone at all. Not people who love the new fluff, not people that hate it, and not GW themselves. Rather this is just my opinion on how GW missed a trick with the fluff developments following the Gathering Storm and Fall of Cadia that could have resulted in something truly amazing, but it's not too late to somewhat salvage the setting from slight mediocrity and make it interesting (albeit without the WOW factor we would have had if it'd been done this way to begin with).

So anyway, let's begin.

The Great Statesman, or the Great Dictator?

"New" 40K started with the introduction of two characters- one new, one long in the fluff but having been out of action for so long everyone assumed he was basically dead. These two characters are lynchpins of the new Imperium. I'm of course talking about Bellisarius Cawl and Roboute Guilliman. Their (re)introductions were a bit messy, but IMO not inherently without merit.

I will discuss Guilliman first, as I feel his return was handled better than Cawl's reveal, and also as he's not had (to the best of my knowledge) much development since his return, in part due to the large amount of existing/historic fluff, and new fluff that originates from the HH series, and thus is set long before M42.

Guilliman's resurrection started off on a fairly strong footing. Guilliman sees what has become of the Imperium...and is absolutely despondent. Not just angry or depressed or mopey, but incredibly disappointed. He's seen the civilization he fought to build and protect turn into a theocratic, dysfunctional nightmare state filled with suffering on a quite literally astronomical scale. He's seen his worst nightmares from the dark days of the Heresy brought to life.

Whilst not explicitly referred to, it could be argued that his horror at the state of the Imperium is not just based on "Well damn, this kinda sucks" but on the nagging feeling that his wayward brothers of the Traitor Legions have not only somehow won, but also may have been partially correct. Specifically, his nemesis Lorgar and the Word Bearers. Not only has the Imperium reverted to zealous religious dogma ruled over by the Ecclesiarchy, but it is the teachings of the Lectitio Divinicus (probably spelled that wrong), penned by Lorgar himself, that forms the basis for the Imperial creed. Lorgar's faith has triumphed over Roboute's "reason". But worst of all? It shows that Lorgar was right. The Imperium would have collapsed long ago had it not rallied around the Emperor as a godhead- and that's to say nothing of his actual divinity. Faith preserves mankind from falling to Chaos; specifically, the faith that Lorgar preached and that Guilliman sought to help the Emperor quash. Guilliman did not save mankind in the long run- unintentionally, LORGAR did. Though he serves new masters and is likely unable to appreciate it, Lorgar has had the ultimate victory and poetic revenge for the destruction of Monarchia. He was proven correct, and he succeeded in saving humanity from damnation where his loyalist brothers failed. For Roboute Guilliman, this is a crushing defeat, a reminder of his weakness and a cruel punishment for his failings.

Now I'm not sure how much any of this was explored- if at all- in official fluff, but we were at the very least given this utterly amazing quote.

"Why do I still live? What more do you want from me? I gave everything I had to you, to them. Look what they've made of our dream. This bloated, rotting carcass of an empire is driven not by reason and hope but by fear, hate and ignorance. Better that we had all burned in the fires of Horus' ambition than live to see this."

So Guilliman is clearly not very happy at all with how his father's great work turned out. Unfortunately, how it was developed from here was, to the best of my knowledge...rather unsatisfactory.

The problem is, because GW were very keen to move things along, presumably to introduce us all to the new status quo, Guilliman gets everything sorted very quickly. He gets made Lord Commander of the Imperium, he gets everything he needs to do, well, done, and he restores some semblance of order to mankind's dominion. This, in my opinion, is the first case of a missed opportunity.

Guilliman's success in restructuring the Imperium is far too easily achieved and far too straightforward. It simply paints him as a superhero who saves the day, which is not what 40K is supposed to be about. It feels unsatisfying and like GW were rushing to set up the state of play for the "modern" era of 40K, which is a shame because not only did it result in a weaker setting but we missed the chance for some fantastic stories set in this period.

There were two possibilities for routes that could be pursued- one that keeps the tone but not the events, an one that keeps the events but not the tone. The first would keep Guilliman's attempts to reconstruct the Imperium noble and honest, but make them far less successful. He is impeded at every turn, by corruption, complacency, fear of change and paranoia. This wouldn't necessarily be portrayed as "Guilliman good, everyone else bad" either. Whilst some would oppose his reform attempts for fear of their cushy jobs being made more difficult, there would be others who would fear that his borderline revolution would throw an already fractured Imperium into complete disarray, whilst others still would be deeply suspicious of the return of someone widely believed to be dead. Apostates and false idols are ten a penny after all. Thus, Guilliman has to fight hard to see the Imperium "fixed", and as of the present his work is far from done. The Imperium is functional but divided, and nobody is certain if he is trustworthy. The second option would show his efforts as far more successful and rapid, but the actual methods by which they were achieved expanded upon and shown to be highly unsavoury. Guilliman is a superb statesman after all, so political manipulation, bribery and blackmail would not be out of the question for him if he felt they would achieve a greater end result. Likewise, there is a very high possibility that those that challenged him, for whatever reason, were either intimidated or outright removed from power (or indeed existence) to avoid unwanted slowdowns. Thus, his remarkable recovery could be compared to a much more successful incarnation of China's Cultural Revolution (complete with cults of personality around a seemingly returned demigod). Whichever way is chosen, it would have kept with 40K's themes that there is no progress, just paths to different forms of horror.

Once his power is established, however, he should still face challenges. He will never be rid of doubters, and there will always be corruption within the Imperium at every strata. The question is, does he choose the harder, but noble path to overcome these obstacles, or the more effective but far darker solutions? Furthermore, is Guilliman a tyrant who believes he is a benevolent dictator, or is he a genuinely virtuous man who does not have the power to achieve his goals by himself? And how much power does he really have?

Which brings me onto the other subject- Bellisarius Cawl.

The Harbinger of Progress or the Cursed "Saviour"?

Cawl was viewed far more harshly than Guilliman when he was brought in, for many reasons. First, nobody had ever heard of him. Secondly, he seemed to be something of a sentient plot device who existed solely to justify the introduction of new technology, return Guilliman to life and otherwise usher in the dawn of a new era. Finally, the way he did this was somewhat in Mary Sue territory. He scuttles in, invents a bunch of new technology, revives a Primarch, refuses to elabourate and leaves. Due to the combination of a lack of development, and what screentime he has being taken up just making everything work, it's easy to see why he doesn't have a lot of fans.

But again, this is a real shame because there was the possibility that Cawl could have been- and indeed, still could be- a truly fantastic character, if he was allowed to be portrayed as more than a heroic mad scientist who solves everyone's problems.

Cawl is a new character and thus a blank slate. His role in the story is to revive Guilliman and develop the Primaris. And he can still do both of these things, but he could be developed into not merely a mysterious character (I know it's implied he has a multiple personality disorder and may be partially Abominable Intelligence) but outright terrifying. You see, whilst not being shown as a straight-up villain or actually evil, he could have been written as an anti-hero, and a damn good one too.

This tech-magos is clearly very good at what he does and incredibly intelligent. So how has he not been executed for dangerously innovative thinking then? My solution would be that the reason he's so successful is that he is a very, very, very dangerous individual to get on the wrong side of, and would have been biding his time building up resources and influence, waiting for the opportunity to strike where he can seize a powerful role and essentially have total freedom to do as he wishes. This is a dangerous, calculating, manipulative and ruthless individual who knows the Mechanicus' protocol inside and out. He knows what loopholes to exploit to make sure his own violations of doctrine are ignored or accepted, whilst his rivals fall afoul of seemingly minor transgressions and are removed from play. He is determined to achieve a position of authority and security to chase his "dreams", and will do anything to succeed.

The important part here is that, correct or not, Cawl is not just a free thinker or great inventor. He's a dangerously uncontrollable, megalomaniacal techno-heretic. If any other Mechanicus member did a fraction of the things he did, they would suffer greatly for it. And Cawl knows this, but he is convinced he knows best, that his view on the correct way forward is the only valid one and that the Mechanicus is too hidebound by tradition and dogma to achieve true greatness. He is certain he and he alone is the architect of humanity's technological future, and that any who would question him or stand in his way must be removed. Because he's not just putting suspension on Land Raiders or air conditioning in hive cities- he's tampering with the Emperor's great work, the Space Marines, and attempting to improve on what is considered holy science. Any right-thinking person, Mechanicus or not, would know this is a dangerous path to tread, but Cawl is totally convinced that he is the chosen one to save humanity.

A good comparison and contrast would be with another insane scientist, albeit a traitor and one with a very different demeanour- Fabius Bile.

Fabius has committed atrocities and crimes against nature itself that would sicken even the most amoral Imperial scientist, and even unsettles fellow traitors. Indeed, his project to bring the next stage of human evolution is regarded as one of the greatest horrors in 40K history, to the point the words "New Men" are possibly the most chilling there are. Yet Bile, despite going to much further lengths than Cawl to achieve his goals, is arguably less amoral and arrogant than the archmagos. He does not do his great work out of a belief that his method is superior, but rather that his work is a necessary evil to save humanity from stagnation and extinction. He does what he does out of a twisted selflessness. He does it not for personal satisfaction, but because nobody else will, so as far as he's concerned, he must. He is in many ways very humble and genuinely noble in his goals, but his methods are fundamentally evil due to his extreme "ends justify means" outlook.

Bellisarius, meanwhile, is similar in many ways- believing ends justify means, performing (lesser) atrocities in the name of scientific progress and flouting the wisdom and comfort of his peers in pursuit of his goal, that being the betterment of humanity. However, Cawl could be portrayed as far more self-centred and prideful in his method and attitude. Whilst Fabius does what he does because he's the only one able and willing, Cawl does what he does because he's convinced his methods are superior, that he is the Emperor's "chosen one" to solve the Imperium's problems. He has 100% faith not in his cause, but in his methods, and will do whatever is necessary to prove that he is right, that his brand of science is the correct path to salvation and that everyone else should listen to him.

To sum these similarities and differences up- both Bile and Cawl commit acts of sin against holy Imperial science. However, whilst Bile is an extreme example of a "bio-heretic", Cawl could more accurately be described as a Techno-Apostate. He believes not only that the existing ways of the Imperium are wrong, but that HE is the chosen disciple of the Emperor to turn the Imperium's backwards ways around. Both are reprehensible but Cawl is arguably far more dangerous to Mankind. Bile, after all, is an outcast even amongst his Legion. Everyone knows he is mad. Cawl is revered by the Imperium and is in charge of the entire Mechanicus.

So how does Cawl maintain this power despite committing cardinal sins of deviation from the sacred STC, tampering with the Emperor's holy work and flagrant disregard for the faith that keeps humanity as the masters of their technology and not vice versa? Simple- he was the PERFECT opportunist. He saw the fall of Cadia as the perfect chance to emerge from the shadows, introduce himself and his work and prove his worth. At any other time he would have been excommunicated with extreme prejudice, but his timing was impeccable. He provided a solution to a problem without one, an escape from seemingly inescapable doom. Had Cawl not committed his many acts of apostasy, Guilliman would still be in stasis, Abaddon's Black Crusade would have been utterly unopposed and the Imperium itself could have been laid low or at least shattered even further than the divide caused by the Great Rift.

Cawl saved the Imperium, but his arrival was not an answered prayer but a Faustian pact with the Devil.

The Puppetmaster and the Paper King

So we've discussed how Guilliman and Cawl could have been improved independently of each other, but what of their relationship? We know Guilliman isn't actually all that fond of him, and inscrutable though the Archmagos is, if we take the above interpretation we can assume he has a cold outlook on the Primarch that extends very little past his as a means to an end. So why would Guilliman, most powerful man in the Imperium, continue to tolerate Cawl's delusions of grandeur and utter lack of ethics? Simply put- in this hypothetical scenario I have been building up, Guilliman needs Cawl, and he fears him too. Guilliman's life support is the work of Bellisarius, and so for that matter is the Primaris project and just about all the new technology to come with it and achievements made possible by it. So he possibly not only relies on Cawl to survive, as nobody else can repair his suit should it begin to fail, but Cawl's public image is extremely positive, both because of the salvation of the Imperium by the Indomitus Crusade (made possible by, you guessed it, Cawl) and because of his relentless manipulation of information. But why would Guilliman fear Cawl?

It seems strange at first. Guilliman is a Primarch, he could fold Cawl like a ticket and poke him in a hole somewhere. Even if he were to die without Cawl's support on his suit's technology, that isn't reason to fear Cawl himself. No, Guilliman's fear rests in this rouge technomagos' sheer talent at something nobody should understand.

Cawl cracked the Astartes code. Cawl improved it into somthing better, something beyond its original specifications. Cawl has insight and the rare ability to innovate, which in the darkness of the far future, is terrifying. Guilliman doesn't just rely on Cawl for soldiers, weapons and propaganda, but for his very life, and he has no idea what Cawl can do. Cawl is an unknown factor to Guilliman. And there is nothing scarier than the unknown. It stands to reason, therefore that even a mighty Primarch would be possibly at the beck and call of this genius monster- Cawl must merely yank the leash, and there is nothing Guilliman can retaliate with that won't  hurt him in the long run.

Guilliman may be the Lord Commander, but Cawl is the new Emperor that rules from behind the veil.

Cawl's Blasphemous Hordes

It goes without saying that Cawl's greatest contribution to the Imperium, the Primaris, are also some of the most controversial. They have been picked apart by so many people in various different ways to the point further discussion is redundant. Except...not really. I believe the problem with Primaris is not the concept but the execution.

(I should point out this will be dealing solely with fluff- the models range from rather toyish to, in the case of the basic Intercessor, entirely acceptable and honestly very good, to the point I'd say if there was no scale difference you could easily have sold Primaris models as just a new mark of power armour following on from Mk. 8 "Errant" suits and it would have looked superb).

Again, like a lot in New 40K, the desire to sell shiny new models and the portrayal of the Primaris as just superheroes saving the day got in the way of potential for spectacular grimdark. Transhuman Dread is already a concept in 40K- seeing something ostensibly somewhat human (a Space Marine) acting and moving in ways a human should not becomes an extreme version of the Uncanny Valley, one that renders regular humans at best awestruck and at worst terrified to a catatonic state by merely witnessing an Astartes fight. And that's firstborn. Now imagine the potential for the increased effect on "Marine+"- the horror of Space Marines experiencing Transhuman Dread from seeing their newly-forged brethren in action is both ironically amusinc and existentially horrific (imagine what they'd do to a regular person's mind!). Primaris could have been portrayed as more than just bigger Marines. The Firstborn's greatest flaws were that for all their armour, strength and mindscrubbing, they are still too human for their own good (hence the many fallen Astartes). The Primaris project sought to rectify that...and made barely-human abominations that are affronts to everything that those they fight for hold dear. If the Firstborn are his Angels of Death, then the Primaris are his Daemons Made Flesh. They embody the human form crafted meticulously into a living weapon with no purpose, no culture and no desire beyond the destruction of His enemies. It's nightmarish beyond even the heyday of grimdark in 3rd and 4th edition. And it's almost totally unexplored.

In fact, as much as I like the models, I would argue the Bladeguard Veterans and other more traditionally Space Marine-y Primaris rather miss the point of what could have made the Primaris interesting. Their generic, soulless nature, bereft of identity, could itself have become a selling point and a part of their core theme. The Firstborn are bespoke orders of warrior-monks who follow the Emperor's light, but along their own paths. The Primaris are mass-produced vectors of death who serve the Emperor because it is what they were made to do and is all they know how to do. They have no Chapter traditions, no rituals and no personal beliefs, because those are not considered efficient enough by their creator to achieve their goal. Though they may be assigned to existing Chapters, they will never truly fit in, and nor will they understand what it is to fit in- whether their battle-brothers view them with horror, disgust, awe or pity, it matters not, for all they can comprehend is how to bring death to the foes of Man.

I will make a short note on the Rubicon Primaris- I actually don't dislike this idea, as it's a quick and simple way to update models and make new designs without causing canon headaches. Execution, less so (poor Shrike!) but the concept makes sense. Still, I feel this could have been made far darker. Beyond the simple risk of death and sheer pain of the process, I like the idea that becoming a Primaris fundamentally changes an Astartes on a core level. No matter how strong their personality, something will be lost to some degree in the process. They may become consumed by an element of their personality, or they may become far more subdued and aloof than they once were. But regardless, once you cross the Rubicon, you cannot cross back, and you must pay the fee Cawl demands, one way or another. After all, if death, which Astartes do not fear, were the only risk, then wouldn't every Marine jump at the chance to cross it? Perhaps there is something to be said for remaining physically weaker, but spiritually intact?

The Mechanicus, the Redemptor, and Disdain for His Finest

As mentioned, it could be said that the easily mass-produced nature of the Primaris and their equipment has rendered them a disposable caste of little individual worth. Nowhere is this more evident than an actual bit of canon relating to a Primaris version of an existing Marine concept- the mighty Dreadnought.

Dreadnoughts are already a horrific concept. Space Marines do not retire- they serve until death. But not even mortal wounds can end this living hell. Should a Marine be horrenndously wounded beyond any hope of healing, but be judged too valuable to join His side, they will be interred within the shell of a Dreadnought. Destined never to experience anything other than an unnaturally long lifetime of warfare, and all from within the confines of an ambulatory iron lung, a tomb that brings others to the grave. It is, in many ways, one of the most utterly terrifying, hideous and desolate parts of 40K fluff. But there is still an element of optimism- the fate of interment is considered a great honour. These Space Marines will live forever, immortalized in an adamantium shell and able to assist their chapter with their wisdom off the battlefield and their strength on it. Though they suffer a great burden, they are in many ways living martyrs, the embodiment of heroic sacrifice. Even in death, they still serve.

So it is darkly amusing and deeply disturbing that the Primaris "sanitized superhero" counterpart- the Redemptor Dreadnought- manages to turn even that solace into ash, leaving only a fate that would not be wished on one's worst enemies, let alone heroes of mankind.

At first, the Redemptor is merely a souped-up Dreadnought. It has fewer, but more powerful, options available for its primary weapon, is upgunned, stronger, larger, tougher, and GASP- has functional legs. But a brief line of fluff reveals the Redemptor is in fact an aberration, and an affront to everything a Dreadnought should be. And I don't mean that in a "I don't like it, it's not muh 40k!" way- it's EXTREMELY 40K. I mean that in an in-universe, "this is a crime before the Emperor" way.

You see, the point of a Dreadnought is to preserve a hero of the Chapter indefinitely. However, the Redemptor, designed by Cawl and his Mechanicus underlings, treats the Dreadnought itself with more respect than the interred Marine. The war machine is incredibly powerful, nigh-unstoppable in fact, and perfectly designed to bring death to His foes. But the Astartes within, like any other Primaris, is merely a disposable tool to be replaced as needed. As such, the neural interface between "pilot" and vehicle, efficient though it is, is highly dangerous in its quality of feedback, and every time the Redemptor is used, its interred pilot risks brain-death from cerebral overload. Deaths are extremely common, and Redemptors get through pilots like a bolter gets through shells. The Dreadnought, whose entire purpose was to keep an honoured hero of the Chapter alive, has greater longevity (and according to its designers, greater value) than the living Space Marine contained within. This nightmarish yet noble machine has been perverted into yet another expendable weapon in the endless Imperial war machine.

This is not dissimilar to the Leviathan Dreadnought, a similarly large Dreadnought, but from the days of the Heresy, whose flawed interface would gradually drive its occupant mad and possibly kill them. The difference, however, was this was a completely unintended flaw, and upon its discovery the Leviathan was discontinued and oft-shunned, leaving them rare in today's Imperium. The Redemptor however was designed to exacting standards, with the extremely common occupant death viewed as a mere undesirable but acceptable side effect. The Leviathan is a flawed relic of a forgotten age. The Redemptor is a cursed, infernal device of a terrible new era.

Whilst I feel this (utterly vile) concept deserves more exploration, I am pleased it at least exists in canon, definitively charted. This at least gives hope for more development in future.

The Future of the Future: Prognostications of Woe, Visions of Doom

The storyline of the setting has been advancing quite quickly. Personally I think it's been going too quickly, and it would have been better to simply move to this new status quo as of 2016 and then stop there. This is a new era, but there is so much to explore, and we are shooting past it very fast.

Now all the above could have been done, and had it been done at the time would have been one of the greatest soft reboots/significant setting updates in media history, going down through the ages as an example of refreshing a series done right. The chance for that accolade is over, but there is still all the time in the world to simply develop these concepts further (even if they require minor retcons) and develop a mediocre if promising "setting era" into a great one.

But where from here? Suppose they do all this, develop 40K back into the "black and darker than black morality" setting it once was, and bring the true horrors of what happens when the human condition achieves critical mass back to the forefront instead of sanitized bolter porn- they may still want their next big development. What should that be?

Well, I have a very good idea. At least, in my opinion.

The new era started with the return of a loyalist Primarch, back from limbo to save the Imperium in its time of need. Guilliman was revived and for better or for worse, saved the Imperium. So what better way to move the Imperium's story along than another loyalist Primarch returns...but with the opposite results?

Picture this. The Imperium is gaining ground. The Orks, reeling from their loss in Octarius, are being driven back. The forces of Chaos are coming unstuck, the combined might of mankind's multifarious armies of the faithful sending them crawling back to the Eye of Terror. The Necrons, more focused on the impending Tyranid invasion, have left the Imperium unmolested whilst also ironically acting as a shield against the ravening hordes of the Hive Mind. The Aeldari of all stripes are involved in their own mysterious affairs, and seeing the armies of the Great Enemy pushed back are more interested in destroying their greatest foe than the upstart Imperium. And the Tau, whilst not fully humbled, are still too small to pose much of a threat. It seems like the Imperium may be back on its feet...

And then, the Lion is awoken. And he is NOT pleased with what he is shown.

He sees the Imperium in a state of not mere decay, but mutation. The proud Astartes are being replaced by dreadful living automatons wearing their Chapter's heraldry like some nightmare fiend would wear the skin of a close friend. The traditions of man are being eroded and replaced with empty gestures in the name of "progress". And worst of all? It is all spearheaded by Roboute Guilliman. The same man who almost abandoned the wider Imperium for the sake of a pet project to hide away in cowardice from the destruction of the Emperor's domain- the accursed architect of the Imperium Secundus. Roboute Guilliman, the Lion believes, is the absolute last person who should be Lord Commander of the Imperium. The Lion has no itnerest in the role for himself- he barely believes such a position should even exist. But seeing his misguided at best and dangerous at worst brother leading the Imperium down an irreversible path of transmutation into something it was never meant to be? This cannot stand.

The Lion roars once more. Those forced to hide their secret doubts in Guilliman's leadership are given a leader to rally about and speak their minds under the protection of. Cracks barely held together with common purpose and Guilliman's force of will widen into yawning chasms of dissent and division. The people of the Imperium are forced to take sides- either follow Roboute Guillman into the promised new era, or Lion El'Jonson to restore the order and glory of the past. There can be no middle ground.

What Guilliman united, El'Jonson rends asunder. The physical barrier between the people of the Imperium Nihilus and those closer to Terra of the Cicatrix Maledictum is as nothing compared to the mighty fortress wall in the hearts and minds of the people formed by this challenge to Guilliman's right to rule. The Imperium, so close to salvation and relative peace, is but steps away from outright civil war.

It is the greatest division in the Imperium's history since the dark days of the Heresy. But it is not brought about by treachery or the meddling of the Dark Gods, but the hardened hearts of those that should call each other not merely allies, but brothers. By the return of another hero of the former age- what should be a call for celebration is the most dreadful event to happen to mankind in millennia.

In the grim darkness of the far future, there is only war.

Fear and Loathing in Segmentum Solar: A Conclusion

In summary, 40K has lost a fair amount of its trademark bleakness and horror. But they have not simply disappeared altogether, and there are still bright flashes of genius and potential for a return to form. The tools are all there for GW to bring 40K back to its former...well, maybe glory is the wrong word. More like former desolation. Although an opportunity was missed, there are others ahead and will ever be so. The path to excellence still lies ahead, unbarred and untread. GW has merely to walk the first step.

Well, that went on much longer than I expected. And now, over to you, fine Frater.

[lokkorex]

This is amazing, handsdown.

I really hope the last part will somewhat become a reality, with the Lion returning and throwing some swords in Guillimans wheels.

[phandaal]

Good stuff, but we do not need a civil war in 40k. Already got that with Horus Heresy.

Especially not one caused by Lion El'Johnson... No thanks.

[Valkyrion]

From a popularity point of view, the next loyalist Primarch would be Lion, Russ or Sanguinius, and Sanguinius is dead.
Of Russ and Lion, only the Lion makes any sort of sense from a storyline POV, because he would be the opposite side of Guilliman's coin - 10,000 years after Imperium Secundus, Guilliman is in charge of the Imperium and there is no Emperor. Jonson would hate that.

I don't think Russ coming back would really change anything or add anything to the setting.

Other interesting counterpoints could be Dorn instead of Lion, and the Khan could be a bit of a wildcard, but in all honesty the setting is diminished with the one primarch we've got, let alone any more. 
 

Edited July 20, 2022 by Valkyrion

[Redcomet]

1 hour ago, phandaal said:

Good stuff, but we do not need a civil war in 40k. Already got that with Horus Heresy.

Especially not one caused by Lion El'Johnson... No thanks.

I wholeheartedly agree. 
 

I also highly doubt it would end with war. They would disagree over things for sure, but ultimately the survival of humanity would be the most important thing.

I also think the next loyalist primarch will be on the Nihilus side of the Great Rift.

[jaxom]

Great write up, Evil Eye. There are definitely some authors who seem to share your outlook. We've seen more and more of what you described as the lore has been filled out since the initial Dark Imperium launch. However, that's part of the problem. If we just look at the big releases and codex fluff then those nuances are not apparent. I think that Avenging Son, The Regent's Shadow, The Great Work The Wolftime, and The Swords of Calth do address the issues, but that's spread out among five books in three different series and a stand-alone.

Also, we're finally getting a post-retcon Chaos codex. That should give us (hopefully!) a different perspective on what's been going on in Nihilus. . It can't have been all roses and sunshine for the Imperium if (at least originally) after 200 years Guilliman and the Indomitus Crusade succeeded in only stabilizing Imperium Sanctus and hadn't been able to touch Nihilus.

[Orange Knight]

@Evil Eye

I am getting a distinctive impression that you have not delved into the various novels that detail Guilliman's activities, and those of the people around him, that have been published since the "Rise of Primarch". If I am wrong, do let me know.

I am referring to: "Watchers of the Throne", "The Regent's Shadow", "Dark Imperium", "Plague War", "Godblight", and the Cawl centric novel; "The Great Work"

 

Not only is Guilliman not simply sweeping aside all of the Imperium's troubles, but he has had to resort to advanced political machinations up-to and including assassinations of powerful individuals to keep the Empire under control. I actually feel that the campaign books that many are familiar with are actually pretty terrible in terms of lore and storytelling, and have many inconsistencies that have since been outright retconned. GW definitely stumbled with the initial lore offerings, and have done much course-correcting since.

The main novel lines that are dealing with what some have dubbed "The Meta Plot" are actually some of the very best novels published by the black Library, and deal with some grand issues that 40k hasn't really grappled with before, beyond the most surface level discussions. The main two writers that have been trusted with this are Guy Haley and Chris Wraight. It's honestly brilliant stuff, that deals with everything from political sabotage, the definitions of Godhood, the possible return of the Emperor, and what it would take to drag humanity forward and trough the darkest age imaginable. Also, what I truly appreciate about some of Chris Wraight's novels in particular, is that characters often act in a way that seems almost insane to us, and yet is completely understandable and arguably justified in the context of the 40k universe.

A civil war idea is not the way to approach the future of 40k, especially as the idea has already been done in a 60+ novel series. It would also be damaging to the quality of the characters in terms of their portrayal in the fiction. The Lion is stubborn, and would oppose Guilliman over many things, but he would do so privately behind closed doors. If his first action, upon return, is to plunge a severely damaged Imperium into a destructive civil war, then he would simply be proving all the memes as being correct. The Lion would be a traitor.

40k is currently grappling with some truly titanic issues that went beyond my wildest expectations. In the novel "Godblight" we explore the definition of what a God is.

-Does denying divinity make you exempt from being a God?

-What if the Emperor is sustained by the psychic echoes of his trillions of believers, and not the machines he sits upon?

-Is the being that currently sits on the Golden Throne the same being that was originally interred?

-And what about the belief by the trillions in the Imperium in Guilliman's divinity? He is shown to accomplish incredible feats, and what if he owes some of his success to the power of Faith?

This is some pretty grand stuff, and that's before we even get into the true revelations that have been dropped upon us. The Emperor himself might be rising from the Golden Throne, and that the great rift that has empowered Chaos in the material universe has also empowered him further.

 

My biggest issue with the 40k lore isn't the direction it is heading in, or the stumbles out of the gate. Both are now largely corrected. My complaint is relating to how much it has slowed down. The Dark Imperium trilogy and the Cawl novel set up some truly titanic ideas for the future of the lore. The Chris Wraight trilogy delves expertly into the politics of Terra and the High Lords in a way that has not been seen before. Between these we have a lot of high quality story telling, but the novels since are largely filling in gaps here and there, and it's starting to feel a bit like the Disney Star Wars movies and TV shows that keep getting made to fill in the "holes" between the various main-line movies.

Perhaps the lore won't truly advance until they are ready to dive into the return of the Lion, and Leman Russ, and the new Votann faction.

*fixed a few typos and odd spelling of names*

 

PS: I can't stress how important "The Great Work" novel is for a full understanding of the current state of 40k. Cawl is an integral part of the setting, and this novel did something I did not expect - It completely justified both his importance, and his ability to have performed the deeds that he did. It's an incredible story that starts during the fires of the Horus Heresy, and one that could reach beyond the stars by the time it's done.

Edited July 20, 2022 by Orange Knight

[N1SB]

A very meaningful discussion.  I agree and I've been thinking about this.  My favourite take was this part below, but perhaps my interpretation is different.

5 hours ago, Evil Eye said:

But worst of all? It shows that Lorgar was right. The Imperium would have collapsed long ago had it not rallied around the Emperor as a godhead- and that's to say nothing of his actual divinity. Faith preserves mankind from falling to Chaos; specifically, the faith that Lorgar preached and that Guilliman sought to help the Emperor quash. Guilliman did not save mankind in the long run- unintentionally, LORGAR did. Though he serves new masters and is likely unable to appreciate it, Lorgar has had the ultimate victory and poetic revenge for the destruction of Monarchia. He was proven correct, and he succeeded in saving humanity from damnation where his loyalist brothers failed. For Roboute Guilliman, this is a crushing defeat, a reminder of his weakness and a cruel punishment for his failings.

"Lorgar was right," is absolutely Guilliman's greatest fear.  I thought a long time to keep the following short, because I think there's an even greater terror still.

If Guilliman takes things personally as Lorgar does (imho he doesn't, no one gets as emotional as Lorgar), it's just him having to concede to his supposed rival.  That's admitting he lost, not the war, but the argument.  However, even on Calth in Know No Fear, Guilliman has trouble thinking in such personal, micro terms.

Imho, Guilliman takes the macro view.  It's not about him and Lorgar, but about humanity.  That's the frustration in Rise of the Primarch, when he thinks aloud before he goes to the Emperor, questioning what the Great Crusade, what the Imperium, what was it all for?  What if it was for nothing?

The worst ending (as in well-written to be tragic in the extreme) I could probably imagine was that of Plague War, when Guilliman reads Lorgar's book.  If Guilliman took things personally, he'd have burned that book long ago.  The fact that he's reading it IS a concession, but not a concession of defeat.

It's a concession that humanity cannot improve, it would always turn away from reason, and Guilliman is accepting not his failure, but humanity's.  That's grimdark.

On Cawl.

Cawl, I'm not a fan of him, he's a heretech and not even the funny kind, but he may not be as bad as described here.  We see a lot more in The Great Work.

The full title is indeed Belasarius Cawl: The Great Work, but it's not his Great Work, it's His Great Work i.e. the Omnissiah's.  Cawl didn't crack the Astartes code, one of the Emperor's lead scientists actually gave it to him in this mind transfer thing (which doesn't go as planned), but he's continuing the project.

Cawl actually believes the Emperor ordered him to work on what'd become the Primaris...that may be some self-delusion, it came to him like in a dream.  But the fact that there was an ongoing Astartes project that tried to recruit Cawl showed there was at least a skunkworks project the Emperor left behind to continue his work.

The idea of Cawl being this overambitious upstart trying to be the next Fabricator-General is actually kind of a fabrication, similar to the Barbarian King persona Leman Russ used.  He made it up because it's something Gulliman would believe in and try to distance himself from.  Cawl mainly wants to be left alone to his work.

(I wrote this in tandem to Brother Orange Knight above, with whom I agree with.)

That said, it doesn't shoot down the presented ideas.  Guilliman having to manage the spectre of Cawl, as in this heretechal movement he started, might be a good story.

On the Lion Johnson.

I agree with the sentiment there shouldn't be another Horus Heresy-like civil war in the 40k era, and if there was, it probably shouldn't be the Lion leading it.

I also agree with the sentiment that Guilliman may need an even match to check & balance his power, story-wise.  Maybe the Lion would be really good at that.

Guilliman's supposed to be this stateman, but it's hard to present him as such without anyone to politic with/against.  He's like a dragon slayer in a world with no dragons left.  The Horus Heresy novels had a lot of things I liked and did not, but I thought it always worked best when Primarchs have conflicting views that aren't right or wrong.

Cyclops and Wolverine needed a rivalry, as did Stonecold and the Rock, to be the most interesting versions of themselves.  It might be a really fun idea.  I'm cool with this.

Edited July 20, 2022 by N1SB

[Evil Eye]

Thank you for the meaningful discussion, everyone!

On the later books, I will fully concede I should probably read those. They sound exactly like the sort of thing I've been wanting. I suppose I would have liked to have seen the themes explored/made more explicit outside of BL books, not because I dislike the BL or anything (I find the alternative viewpoints they provide intriguing, along with their deeper looks into existing threads) but because I feel that the marketing material and non-novel story presentation could have been a bit less, I dunno, "toy commercial" in its approach. There's a great disparity between how the story is marketed, even in the actual rule books, and the deeper aspects as presented in the BL novels. I don't mind reading BL books for a more indepth look into the themes at all, but I feel the almost complete absence of those themes outside of scarce hints in "mainstream" (for lack of a better word) fluff is irritating to some degree.

On the possibility of civil war, in hindsight I think a full-on war would be unnecessary. I do feel, however, that a very deep schism and increasingly fractured Imperial creed would make for very interesting possibilities for a story. Even if the Lion is ostensibly Gulliman's ally because, well, Imperium, I can't help but imagine he'd be deeply unhappy about it. Like "fielding them both together has in-game penalties" unhappy. Point absolutely taken that full-on HH 2 Electric Boogaloo would be a stupid idea, I do feel like tensions between Lion, Roboute and their respective factions would be a fair bit higher than slight huffiness.

[Special Officer Doofy]

I do like the current lore and fluff but it could be better. I really like the dark imperium trilogy, the last book has some crazy stuff going on that could really push the setting if delved in to (won't spoil anything, you should read them if you haven't). And read anything Chris Wraight, he's the best 40k author (my subjective opinion of course). 

I personally don't care for loyalist primarchs or legions/chapters that much so I have no favorite, but I do think the Lion coming back from a narrative point of view would set up for the best stories. I consider 3 dead (don't care for the Dorn retcon from full body to just the hand, feel free to not like me for it haha), and of the remaining I feel like Lion would openly opose Guilliman the most. Russ maybe, but Corax is doing his thing and Vulkan / Khan would be like whatever and take their chapters back over and that's it.

I don't think anyone wants heresy 2.0, that would be soooo dumb. But the imperium has been winning alot recently. Primaris marines kicking ass, new chapters and reinforcements for old chapters, a primarch coming back and taking the reins, new cawl technology, and the ending of godblight opens alot of doors. There's obviously still bad things and issues going on, but the imperium is better off since Guilliman came back and Primaris marines joined. I think some people (myself included) just want some strife. I certainly don't want the Lion to fight Guilliman or have a battle or anything like that, but just kind of be a thorn at his side (not even intentionally). A wild card if you will. Almost like if you had a home project and had a friend/brother/father come help and he tries telling you you're doing it wrong and tries correcting you and it can lead to arguments (not actual physical fights) where it makes you wonder at the end of the day if you would have been better off by yourself.

Im not a huge Lion / Dark Angel lore expert, but I do think the Lion would butt heads sometimes and not be all high fives all the time. Doesn't mean civil war but does make for some good stories and a fun shake up for the setting. Like I said a little loyalist drama between brothers would be cool. Not like the traitor ones are having pool parties and sleep overs in the warp haha. Strife adds to the grim dark right? I think so at least. What if the high lords who don't like Guilliman side with the other primarch even if they know Guilliman is the more rational and logical choice for the imperium but do it for personal reasons or feel they can manipulate the other primarch more? That would make for a cool story I think.

[ThePenitentOne]

This is  great post and thread and I would LOVE to play Crusade with y'all.

Because I thing that the point of the fluff is to be the thing that allows us to play the intricacies out on the table. I mean, sure, the novels exist- this thread has actually inspired me to read them, because the places where my games happen is in the spaces left between the fluff. I set my campaign on the deep western fringe of Pacificus specifically so that everyone heading too or from the 7th BSF would have a reason to "rediscover" and interact with the star system I've created.

Thaddius, Pious and Gotfrett all swing by o their way to the BSF- with Gotfrett training and elevating an order of Crusaders on the planet before moving on to the BSF. And once they finish at the BSF, all of them return to the system, having sent dispatches back to the Imperium that a lost Preceptory of OoOML has been found at last.

So if you want Guilliman's process of assembling the Indomitus Crusade to be difficult, don't wait for GW to write that- they gave you the tools to tell that story, so do it. Make the UM with big G fight of Imperial unbelievers. Send wave after wave of assassins hired by dissenting High Lords. 

Want the Primaris to have a rougher time integrating than they did? Grab your White Dwarf Torchbearer fleet rules and when the Custodes, Mechanicus and Greyshields actually find the chapter they are destined to join, have that Chapter fight them rather than embrace them. Create a series of missions that will allow the Greyshields to eventually prove themselves, and let the dice decide whether or not they actually do.

My head cannon, and one that I might play with, is radical Ordo Malleus Inquisitors hiring assassins to take out Artemis, whose hatred of elves was so deep that he prevented them from destroying Slaanesh and eliminating 25% of the Imperium's Chaos problem. Many radical Malleus Inquisitors would consider such a marine to be too dangerously stupid to continue to live.

(Personally, as a Slaanesh player, I'm GLAD the Ynarri plan didn't work- but as a Deathwatch player, WOW, is Artemis dumb as dirt!)

Ynarri players, if there are any, are likely unhappy about the lack of forward momentum for the development of their story lines too. I think the when the Emperor's Children dex finally appears, the Ynarri will have a role to play- whether GW explicitly writes it that way or not. Yvraine is NOT going to like Fulgrim claiming that Cronesword that Shelaxi smuggled back to Slaanesh's realm.

 What EE has presented here is AWESOME bones for an extended Crusade campaign. I'd love to play in it more than I'd like to see GW just write it that way.

 

 

[Orange Knight]

All the Primarchs are rivals by nature. Even when the Emperor was around, they were openly competing with each other over all sorts of things.

Guilliman and the Lion will absolutely have some sort of rivalry, but it will not be public and it will not openly weaken either one.

Their battles will be fought with words, in meetings that decide the course of the Imperium, and how to pursue it.

[N1SB]

1 hour ago, Evil Eye said:

...I feel that the marketing material and non-novel story presentation could have been a bit less, I dunno, "toy commercial" in its approach.

The '80s-style toy commercial is definitely a thing.  One of the short stories kickstarting 8th ed featured each of the new Primaris units, then when I thought they already got everything BOOM, the main character suffers a fatal wound as he's slaying the antagonist...and wakes up as a Redemptor Dreadnought.  It was like a bingo card.

There are also moments where Mortarion in the Dark Imperium series escapes and you can imagine him shaking a fist at Guilliman like, "I'll get you next time, Guilliman!"

I'm liking these ideas of Guilliman and the Lion unwittingly creating Byzantine power struggles.  Not a civil war, but proxy contests, not even out of sibling rivalry, but because there's so much at stake that factions start to form and happen to coalesce around the 2 Primarchs, even/especially if they don't want them to.

I think the reason is similar to how the secret Inquisition schisms between Puritans and Radicals is interesting.  A lot of the new 40k lore honestly does feel like a toy commercial not so much for advertising models, but because it's too cartoony at times with clear heroes and villains.

[Scribe]

Oh my...I must read this.

[phandaal]

58 minutes ago, N1SB said:

The '80s-style toy commercial is definitely a thing.  One of the short stories kickstarting 8th ed featured each of the new Primaris units, then when I thought they already got everything BOOM, the main character suffers a fatal wound as he's slaying the antagonist...and wakes up as a Redemptor Dreadnought.  It was like a bingo card.

Primaris Lieutenant suffers a mortal wound... then he wakes up and who is there to greet him in his new Dreadnought body but ROBOUTE GUILLIMAN!! Pretty sure I just skimmed the rest of the book after that.

58 minutes ago, N1SB said:

A lot of the new 40k lore honestly does feel like a toy commercial not so much for advertising models, but because it's too cartoony at times with clear heroes and villains.

Cartoony is right. Sometimes it feels like watching a Saturday morning cartoon. Good guys and bad guys, whole galaxy revolves around the story of the week, stuff like that.

[lansalt]

The Dark Imperium/Dawn of Fire books are a bit cartoony, yes. But others like The Lords of Silence, Apocalypse, or the Watchers of the Throne/Vaults of Terra series aren't cartoony at all. The BL books released as tie-in to GW products seem to be more "toy commercial" in tone (at least in the first books, Godblight was more serious IMO).

[Urauloth]

Some great discussion in here. I don't have a lot to add right now that wouldn't hinge on spoilers from books Evil Eye has yet to read, but I'll pitch in to say that yes, Wraight and Haley have pretty thoroughly covered a lot of the points in the initial post in their novels so far.

I do think it's a shame more of this narrative stuff doesn't make it through to the "surface level" though - if you just relied on codexes and supplements, you'd actually be clueless about quite a few very important details of the Indomitus era and the factions active in it.

[Orange Knight]

@lansalt

Cartoony might be the wrong word for a description. 

I think the Dark Imperium trilogy is simply quintessentially 40k. It's silly at times, and deadly serious in others. It has scenes of intense political discussion one moment, and a talking poo slug in the next. The battle scenes range from very good and inventive, to some which exist to advertise the models and little more.

The 40k setting is well reflected in something like this. It's a universe filled with real horror, mushroom hooligans and wizards.

The books do explore a lot of interesting things however, and they are definitely worthwhile and build to something big.

Edited July 20, 2022 by Orange Knight

[MegaVolt87]

With the next returning loyalist primarch, I would also like it to be a helm memory core event like Battletech. So, Lion, Vulkan, Russ or Khan could bring back with them old STC's from the GC + HH era as justification of a fair bit of legion tech back into the SM codex such as the Spartan, Sicarans, Scorpius, laser vindi and alt pread loadouts etc since those are moving to plastics. Its actually a smoother tech revival to the lore than the primaris implementation and since we already have the primaris crowbared in like they were, its not a far fetched or wild idea to do at this point. This would trigger Cawl into reaching for old mechanicum STC's from that era too for parity. The fact Cawl hasn't really upped the mechanicum arsenal, tells me he is not worried about primaris tech overtaking the current mechanicum force strength. Also, as far as I can tell all the new mechanicum units for 40k that were done have been implemented like they were always apart of the modern mechanicum and not a "new" invention like primaris and their tech in comparison. I would go a step further and have some of those old era ad mech STC come from Ultramar, combination of RG not wanting to hand them back or use, and deny they were ever there if pressed about why they were never handed over to the mechanicum. 

As far as whats there, there are stubble hints of RG not being entirely above board, with so many primaris being stationed in Ultramar- nope, nothing suspicious when you do something like hand Talasar over to the Void Tridents as a chapter planet. an extra thousand+ space marines spitting distance from Macragge is just helping out... Stuff like that is alluded to, but you have to dig too far in to see it and most miss points such as that. Old lore was one minute to midnight, new lore feels like 10:30pm to midnight with the changes. 

[jaxom]

5 hours ago, N1SB said:

I'm liking these ideas of Guilliman and the Lion unwittingly creating Byzantine power struggles.  Not a civil war, but proxy contests, not even out of sibling rivalry, but because there's so much at stake that factions start to form and happen to coalesce around the 2 Primarchs, even/especially if they don't want them to.

One of my favorite aspects of Imperium Secundus was the Lion low-key trolling Guilliman whenever Guilliman tried to logic Sanguinius into doing something.  However, that was based on Sanguinius being in charge. I could see the Lion effectively doing what he did to Horus; acknowledge orders and then head off into Nihilus and do whatever he was planning to do from the start.

1 hour ago, MegaVolt87 said:

So, Lion, Vulkan, Russ or Khan could bring back with them old STC's from the GC + HH era as justification of a fair bit of legion tech back into the SM codex such as the Spartan, Sicarans, Scorpius, laser vindi and alt pread loadouts etc since those are moving to plastics.

*SNIP*

Old lore was one minute to midnight, new lore feels like 10:30pm to midnight with the changes. 

Gramarye and the Consecrators say, "Hello!" More seriously, this is why I want to know what is in the new Chaos codexes. I've always felt that the new lore was a second to midnight, but in a different way. Theoretically there is a whole Empire of the Eye, along with whatever other pocket kingdoms warlords have put together, occupying half the galaxy. There's still gates, but now, if Abaddon breaks through, he has a lot more resources and is closer to Terra.

[Gederas]

Yeah, having read the 30k novels with the Lion, along with Book 9 - Crusade, Lion wouldn't start a Civil war with Guilliman. He'd definitely have words with his younger brother. Whether or not those words involve weapons depends on how incensed Lion is upon seeing the state of the Imperium and his Legion after his cat-nap.

 

Regarding Primaris and Lion: He'd likely be annoyed but Lion is first and foremost, above all else, a pragmatist. If he sees Primaris Dark Angels acting like his Dark Angels, he'd likely just shrug and roll with it.

Edited July 21, 2022 by Gederas

[jaxom]

It just occurred to me how weird it is that none of the Primarchs, with all their brilliance, followed in the Emperor's foot-steps and learned about gene-science. Even Fulgrim (and I think Corax, too) left it to the apothecaries. Like, how difficult should it be for a primarch to double-check that there are no hidden mind-control portions to the Primaris organs if they took a week to learn about biology?

[Felix Antipodes]

14 hours ago, Orange Knight said:

-Is the being that currently sits on the Golden Throne the same being that was originally interred?

Of course it’s still Malcador 

Edited July 21, 2022 by Felix Antipodes

[Felix Antipodes]

On the topic of Primaris, both the GW backgrounders and BL authors have begun to reshape their nature.  The are beginning to highlight just how straightjacketed they are wrt their training and mental conditioning and how this has led to them needlessly depleting their numbers because of it.  They die by the dozens where a similar sized firstborn unit would suffer only a few casualties.  

Their lack of culture and ritual has also been highlighted, with the Black Templars accepting Primaris but insisting on retraining them in their own methods and culture.  This will almost certainly be how most Chapters will integrate them into their ranks.  I can see the a future where the Firstborn Primaris attached to existing Chapters are a diminishing minority of (effectively) outsiders who cannot relate to their Firstborn brothers or later Primaris recruited and trained in that Chapters’ normal process or having crossed the rubicon.  I envisage a large number being seconded to the Deathwatch due to this alienation.

Eventually, the only difference between the pre-Primaris and Post-Primaris Blood Angels, for instance, will be that they will have the additional Primaris implants and upgraded armour/weaponry.

 

[JaM_TW]

I really like this discussion. This is (for me, atm) one of the better parts of 40K and also shows how much knowledge there is among the boardmembers. 

Great stuff, good read  please carry on!