Rapid fire

[mooftak]

This might be silly, but I've interpreted Rapid Fire to mean 2 shots at half range or closer and thus Fury of the Legion would let you make 3 shots per bolter. However, some folks out there are stating, and appear to be correct RAW, that Rapid Fire is 2 separate 1 shot attacks at half range and thus Fury of the Legion would give you 4 shots per bolter at half range. What's the B&C concensus?

[Varyn]

I would interpret this as 3 shots at half range or less. The rule states 'add one to the number of shots fired' which I understand to mean that you fire two shots at half range and you add one; the number of shots fired is two and you add one.

 

 

[bushman101]

It's 3 shots at most.

Your using the same weapon profile for Rapid Fire, so each shot can't be really counted as 'seperate'.

The interpretation you describe could only work with double pistols,  and even then I would be a bit skeptical 

[GodEmperorOfMankind]

RAW it looks to be 4 shots.

Rapid fire states you make 2 attacks at half range.

Fury states if not moved or run you add 1 to the number of shots when making a shooting attack. 

Poor writing on GW part, I doubt it was intentional. 

I've always played it as 3 shots, and will continue to do so. 

[SkimaskMohawk]

This is a doozy.

 

I've been a big proponent of 4 shots on various social media, but I think I've been in the wrong, and it's intended to be 3. RAW is incredibly messy.

The big problem is that rapid fire now says "make two attacks". This is very obviously different from the language of Fury, where it talks about shots. It's then compounded by the incredibly sloppy shooting phase rules, where "attack" is used to refer to both Shooting Attacks and number of shots, and further confused by other terminology being mixed in:

 

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Page 168: If a weapon can attack with more than one mode , as represented by multiple profiles for a single weapon, select a single weapon mode/ammo type for this attack.

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Page 168: If a model cannot attack the same target unit as the other models in its unit then it cannot attack at all in the Shooting phase for that turn.

In this example, attack is clearly used as an action or instance; the weapon is making one attack with its profile.

 

Quote

Page 168: Most models only get one to make one attack - however, some weapons are capable of firing more than once, as I'll be explained in more detail later.

In this example, they seemingly use attack to describe the number of shots, but change the language right away, causing a point for confusion.  

 

Quote

Page 176: Some Ranged weapons fire multiple shots. Where this is the case, the number of shots a weapon fires is noted after it's type. If a model fires a weapon with multiple shots, it must fire all shots from that weapon.

In this example, shots is used to describe the number of shots, with fire acting as the verb. This example and the first could work together to change the interpretation of the second example; attack is a seperate thing from firing/amount of shots.

 

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Page 177: ...an Assault weapon makes the number of Attacks indicated on its profile whether the bearer has moved or not.

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Page 177: ...a Heavy weapon attacks the number of times indicated.

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Page 177: ...an Ordnance weapon fires the number of times in its profile after its Type.

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Page 178: ...a Rapid Fire weapon can make two attacks at a target...

In this final example, we can see how the formatting basically flies out the window. We see a capitalized "Attack", as if it were the characteristic or Shooting Attack; we see normal "attack"; we even see "fire".

The problem is that in 1st , they used "fire" and "shoot" instead of "attack", so all the language lined up far better; "attack" was basically used only to refer to the shooting attack. For some reason they decided to change the term they wanted, but also did a terrible job of formatting while they were at it.

Tldr: they changed their key terms super poorly, but most likely intended for a 3 shot fury. 

[GodEmperorOfMankind]

35 minutes ago, SkimaskMohawk said:

This is a doozy.

 

I've been a big proponent of 4 shots on various social media, but I think I've been in the wrong, and it's intended to be 3. RAW is incredibly messy.

The big problem is that rapid fire now says "make two attacks". This is very obviously different from the language of Fury, where it talks about shots. It's then compounded by the incredibly sloppy shooting phase rules, where "attack" is used to refer to both Shooting Attacks and number of shots, and further confused by other terminology being mixed in:

 

In this example, attack is clearly used as an action or instance; the weapon is making one attack with its profile.

 

In this example, they seemingly use attack to describe the number of shots, but change the language right away, causing a point for confusion.  

 

In this example, shots is used to describe the number of shots, with fire acting as the verb. This example and the first could work together to change the interpretation of the second example; attack is a seperate thing from firing/amount of shots.

 

In this final example, we can see how the formatting basically flies out the window. We see a capitalized "Attack", as if it were the characteristic or Shooting Attack; we see normal "attack"; we even see "fire".

The problem is that in 1st , they used "fire" and "shoot" instead of "attack", so all the language lined up far better; "attack" was basically used only to refer to the shooting attack. For some reason they decided to change the term they wanted, but also did a terrible job of formatting while they were at it.

Tldr: they changed their key terms super poorly, but most likely intended for a 3 shot fury. 

That is a fantastic breakdown of the rules and shows precisely where the confusion is, thank you. 

I actually went back to the first edition rules and surprisingly it very much seems as though it would be 4 shots at half range using fury. 

Pg40 of ages of darkness army list:

"models making a fury of the legion attack may fire twice with their bolters or bolt pistols against a single target" 

HOWEVER, in HHv1 fury is restricted to having at least 5 models with a bolter or bolt pistol, cannot overwatch later in the turn and cannot fire in the next shooting phase. 

Those restrictions dont apply in HHv2 (as far as I'm aware?) which make me think that the intention is still 3 shots, otherwise why lose the drawbacks? 

This does mean though that dual bolt pistols would be 4 shots, 2 from each pistol. 

[SkimaskMohawk]

Yea a lot of things lost a marginal bit of power while ditching their drawbacks, so it's pretty plausible that fury went to 3 for that reason. 

 

[Spagunk]

It's four in my opinion and here is why.

Shooting Attack is not the same as an attack.

1. A Shooting Attack is step 1 in the shooting sequence. You nominate a unit to make a Shooting Attack. Okay, so I pick tactical marines.
2. I then pick a target: That guy over there. Sounds easy
3. Next, I choose a weapon. Okay, I choose the bolter. When you select the weapon you must determine how many attacks/shots that weapon provides before moving on. This is where it gets tricky:
   1. Bolter can make 1 attack at 24" or two attacks at half range (12 inches). This is defined by the rapid fire rules on page 178 of the BBB and explicitly says TWO ATTACKS; Not shots, attacks. This is important because most all other weapons provide for only one attack where as rapid fire grants the bolter two attacks per Shooting phase when at half range. 
   2. Fury of the legion, however, indicates you get an additional shot (on page 119 of the Liber Astartes, IDK what page it is in the traitor book): "that model may add one to the number of shots fired when making a Shooting Attack with a bolter". You are normally only ever able to get one attack. Rapid fire grants two attack. FotL grants a second shot when you attack. IDK if that is intended but there is already wording in other places, such as deflagrate, to add a shot after the weapon is fired.  
4. Roll dice equal to total number of shots for that weapon type.
5. yadda yadda
    

My position is that the extra attack is calculated during step 3. You're not resetting the Shooting Attack (I.E. going back to step 1 of the shooting phase as designated by the capitalized "Shooting" and "Attack") when the bolter rapid fires; you're still fully in the step 3 where you are calculating the number of dice to roll for the weapon. Technically, you should be rolling two separate attacks since it is at this point that you have increased the number of attacks during the shooting phase but we all roll fast when you're in the midst of battle. 

To outline this a bit further, the issue is with three terms: Shooting Attack, attack and shots. Through my read through, Shoot Attack corresponds to the action of nominating a unit. This is specifically called out with the same capitalization used all over the place. That means that it is specifically referring to that first part of the Shooting phase where in you nominate a unit to engage that phase. The FotL says you add an addition shot when you are preforming a Shooting Attack which means that from step 1 going forward your FotL is active and running. This would make the most logical choice to announce you intend to use FotL, in my opinion.

An attack is defined in step three (again, page 166) when you nominate a weapon to use. Only when you nominate a weapon can said models perform an attack. This is key because Rapid fire grants you an additional attack at this time. FotL, having been engaged from the start, applies a +1 shot for your attacks. As such, both attacks have +1 shot. This segues into the last term to define.

A shot is defined by page 176 as being the number after the weapon's type. The lack of a number after "rapid fire" is a 1 that is increased to 2 due to FotL. And because a shot is different than an attack, it exists as its own entity in this situation.

So you get two attacks during the shooting phase, each currently providing 2 shots each due to FotL, which equals 4 in the turn you both announce FotL and utilize the Rapid Fire mode of a bolter.

In all honestly, I can see where someone WOULD say there is only ever one additional shot. When I first read the book, I thought that as well and chocked it up to a slight nerf to FotL. It's still useful at 3 but I think based on the three defining terms that it is in fact 4 based on two shots times two attacks.

Please don't devolve this into a back and forth yelling match. This only serves to highlight my perspective on the matter. I am more than willing to roll whatever my opponent indicates would be appropriate for rapid fire bolters.

Edited July 20, 2022 by Spagunk

[SkimaskMohawk]

There's some issues with that take.

First, a Shooting Attack isn't step 1. The second paragraph on page 166 says "the process by which shooting attacks are made can be summarized in 7 steps described as follows". And then it talks about the Shooting Attack being detailed by the 7 steps in paragraph 3.

Second, "attack" is never defined. Not once. 

Third, the logic of shot=shots and attack being the container for the weapon firing is that it falls down as soon as we look at other weapon types. Per your definition an assault 4 weapon would get 16 shots; it "makes the number of attacks indicated on its profile" (4) and "Some ranged weapons fire multiple shots. Where this is the case, the number of shots a weapon fires is noted after it's type" (4). So a 4 attacks consisting of 4 shots; better tell the BA and IF players so they can bust out the bubbly. Or a kheres dread with its 72 shots. 

[GodEmperorOfMankind]

4 hours ago, Altis said:

RAW it looks to be 4 shots.

Rapid fire states you make 2 attacks at half range.

Fury states if not moved or run you add 1 to the number of shots when making a shooting attack. 

Poor writing on GW part, I doubt it was intentional. 

I've always played it as 3 shots, and will continue to do so. 

As I said previously, RAW it does state 4 shots for half range fury. 

And personally I think RAI it should be 3, for the reasons I mentioned. 

I think if they had the rapid fire state 2 shots rather than 2 attacks things would be much clearer. 

Yep everyone is entitled to their own opinion, I don't think anyone is shouting, the problem with reading posts on forums is you don't get to hear the tone that the other person would convey. 

 

It's one of those I would likely talk with my opponent about the first time it came up, and play it whichever way they preferred (I think 3, but if they want 4 then cool, I'll use 4 when I make fury too). 

[Spagunk]

1 hour ago, SkimaskMohawk said:

There's some issues with that take.

First, a Shooting Attack isn't step 1. The second paragraph on page 166 says "the process by which shooting attacks are made can be summarized in 7 steps described as follows". And then it talks about the Shooting Attack being detailed by the 7 steps in paragraph 3.

Second, "attack" is never defined. Not once. 

Third, the logic of shot=shots and attack being the container for the weapon firing is that it falls down as soon as we look at other weapon types. Per your definition an assault 4 weapon would get 16 shots; it "makes the number of attacks indicated on its profile" (4) and "Some ranged weapons fire multiple shots. Where this is the case, the number of shots a weapon fires is noted after it's type" (4). So a 4 attacks consisting of 4 shots; better tell the BA and IF players so they can bust out the bubbly. Or a kheres dread with its 72 shots. 

attacks are defined: page 168

"all models in the unit that are equipped with the selected weapon can now attack the target unit with that weapon."

This establishes that when you selected your weapon, the act of selection and use can now attack.

Furthermore, a weapon of a single type can only ever make one attack per model. Rapid fire specifically overrides this rule by saying you make a second attack. Kheres/Illiastus do NOT have this rule, you only ever make one attack with the weapon you selected, using the number of shots as afforded by the number after the weapon type in the profile. The number of shots is equal to the number AFTER the weapon type (Assault 4, Heavy 3 etc). It does not indicate how many attacks you have, but how many shots PER ATTACK. And since you can only ever attack once with a specific shooting weapon, unless you have a mode which contains a secondary profile such as a combi-weapon, the only weapon that can attack multiple times per Shooting Attack are Rapid Fire weapons.

IDK where you got the idea that I stated a kheres or illiastus can attack multiple times. They attack once, and use the number of shots as indicated.

Edited July 21, 2022 by Spagunk

[SkimaskMohawk]

That's not a definition....at all. I'm not sure how to explain that a summary of a step that happens to contain the word , but not what the word means, is not a definition. Especially not when it's used in contradictory terms later on.

And lol, I never said that you said a kheres or illiastus could attack multiple times; I quoted the rules for heavy and assault weapons (the actual quotes bring in my original post you clearly skimmed right over). They all explicitly override the rules of "only one attack per model", at least to the same extent that rapid fire does. You cant dismiss heavy and assault weapons while maintaining rapid fire; they all say make more attacks and reference an amount. 

 

[Spagunk]

4 hours ago, SkimaskMohawk said:

That's not a definition....at all. I'm not sure how to explain that a summary of a step that happens to contain the word , but not what the word means, is not a definition. Especially not when it's used in contradictory terms later on.

And lol, I never said that you said a kheres or illiastus could attack multiple times; I quoted the rules for heavy and assault weapons (the actual quotes bring in my original post you clearly skimmed right over). They all explicitly override the rules of "only one attack per model", at least to the same extent that rapid fire does. You cant dismiss heavy and assault weapons while maintaining rapid fire; they all say make more attacks and reference an amount. 

 

"a statement expressing the essential nature of something" -https://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/definition

But I digress...

Let's look at both Heavy and Assault rules. Assault - "A model attacking with an Assault weapon makes the number of Attacks indicated on its profile, regardless of whether the bearer has moved or not." Okay. So where is an Illiastus' attacks signified? It's not the number besides the weapon type; that's the number of shots as defined on page 176. So where is it indicated to have "4 attacks"?

Heavy - "...a model with a Heavy weapon attacks the number of times indicated." Okay, how many attacks does it say you make? Again, it is not the number besides the word Heavy as that is specifically the number of shots.

Lets go back to Rapid Fire. "A model armed with a Rapid Fire weapon can make two attacks at a target up to half the weapon's Maximum range away". It clearly states you make two attacks. It does not say you make two shots listed in the profile, it distinctly states TWO attacks. It used to say two shots in HH1.0 but now says attacks. That must be some significance as shots are a thing. If it was intended to be shots, it would say so and then you add +1 to those shots which WOULD equal three.

The chief difference is that shooting weapons, at least for Astartes, do not typically indicate the number of attacks them make. However they do indicate the number of shots an attack makes. The only real shooting weapon that indicates additional attacks are Combi-weapons because it says "a model with any combi-weapon may attack with both primary and secondary weapons in the same Shooting Attack without needing the Firing Protocols(X) special rule". Here it stating an exception that you can make both a Primary weapon attack and a Secondary weapon attack. But you resolve the Secondary weapon attack separate from the primary weapon, as indicated on page 168.

This is somewhat divergent from HH1.0 because in the language they used "Fire/Firing" in place of attack while shots are still indicated by the number next to the weapon type. You would fire a rapid fire weapon which grants you two shots. Then FotL says you can fire twice with your bolter or bolt pistol. But it's very close to the same argument since you're firing a weapon which you would have to go and tell people how you go about firing a weapon.

I am going to guess that future books like SA or Mechanicum may end up having more attacks on some things or indicate the number somehow. It remains to be see though and may never have a clear example.

Again, to repeat myself, I fully intend to ask which version my opponent prefers and then go with their answer.

Edited July 21, 2022 by Spagunk

[Valkyrion]

The IF Castellan defines this for us?

When making an attack with a Heavy Weapon, a Castellan may increase the number of attacks made with that weapon by +1 when making a Shooting Attack (for example, a Castellan making a Shooting Attack with a Heavy 3 weapon would roll an additional dice for its attacks, rolling 4 dice in total)

So Shooting Attacks = number of shots, no?

So rapid fire is one attack that shoots twice, with an extra shot, so Fury allows for 3 shots. 

IMO, of course.

[GodEmperorOfMankind]

1 hour ago, Valkyrion said:

The IF Castellan defines this for us?

When making an attack with a Heavy Weapon, a Castellan may increase the number of attacks made with that weapon by +1 when making a Shooting Attack (for example, a Castellan making a Shooting Attack with a Heavy 3 weapon would roll an additional dice for its attacks, rolling 4 dice in total)

So Shooting Attacks = number of shots, no?

So rapid fire is one attack that shoots twice, with an extra shot, so Fury allows for 3 shots. 

IMO, of course.

Nice find! 

Yes as far as I'm concerned that is the intent behind the rapid fire rules, they just worded it poorly

[Xenith]

=][= Keep it civil =][=