Coils/RoT

[Balthamal]

Help settle an argument frater since I can't find anything similar on here or on the wider interwebs.

 

As per Coils of the Hydra you're able to select 3 of the units that would otherwise be available through Rewards of Treachery. Does that stipulate it has to be 3 separate versions of a singular unit? 3 units united by a singular Legiones Astartes (x) or is it simply 3 separate selections of the RoT as a single entity (ie all fair game)

 

 

[Chaeron]

I’ve seen some initial discussions about this, but I don’t think there’s a definitive conclusion as to which option it would be: suitably Alpha Legion I think we can all agree. I’ve gone back and forth on this, I think I’m closest to option 2 in interpretation (single Legion, any option) - but option 3 would be the most flexible and desirable!

I’d be keen to see how others have read this too.

[armarnis]

If it Had to bei fromm a single other Legion i am certain it would say so. I ready it as Up to 3 Units from Up to 3 legions

[Chaeron]

3 hours ago, armarnis said:

If it Had to bei fromm a single other Legion i am certain it would say so. I ready it as Up to 3 Units from Up to 3 legions

I think you could argue the opposite too! Ideally, you’d have all the options - but a comparative ‘Blackshields’ force would be very fun to play with.

Either way, the limitations are making it slightly challenging to use in practice: I’d be worried about getting shot off the board, so it’s weighing up what seems best in terms of usage too. I think everyone will ‘steal’ one, but I’d be interested to see lists that consciously use this RoW effectively and which aren’t overly sacrificial.

[Harrowmaster]

I guess it comes down to whether or not the rewards of treachery rule is used once or multiple times. If it's only used or applied once (but changing the number of units selected to three) then it would be all from a single legion (per the normal rule). 

But if rewards of treachery applies individually to each of the three allowed units then they can all be from different legions. 

I'm inclined to use the first interpretation (partially because it's the least powerful). The Coils rite says that up to three units may be chosen as part of the rewards of treachery special rule, they still use force org slots and points and follow the restrictions in the rewards of threachery rule. Rewards of threachery itself says that a single variant of Legiones Astartes may be chosen (one of the restrictions, which according to coils must be followed). 

I think the key part here is the bit saying that up to three units may be chosen under the one rule, which states that only one variant of Legiones Astartes can be chosen. The rite changes the number of units which can be taken (which is distinct from the variant Legiones Astartes in rewards of treachery); but keeps it all under one application of the rule. 

Rewards of treachery itself says that another legions rules are to be chosen and then at the end of the same paragraph says that one unit from this chosen legion rule can be selected. GW have separated the other LA variant from the number of units to be taken here, Coils merely increases the number of units (from the last sentence of paragraph one). 

They operate separately and thus increasing the number of units does not change the limitation on one variant of the LA rule (so you can take firedrakes and pyroclasts but not firedrakes and phalanx warders). 

Edit: I agree the wording is nowhere near as clear as it should be and I totally get reading it the other way, this is just how I see it. 

Edited July 23, 2022 by Harrowmaster

[Canadian_F_H]

Locally our conclusion was that the RoT rule says to pick a (singular) LA rule, then, pick one unit to steal once.  Then the CotH RoW only changes RoT by how many units you can steal, not how many LA rules you can take.

Also that apparently you are forced to put into reserves one normally taken LA(AL) unit per unit taken via RoT.

 

Though I think it would be nice if GW would address it in a FAQ.  We really need a FAQ/errata for a lot of things imo.

[xxxjtmxxx]

on reddit people are sure that only the coils units are place on the table. everything else is in reserve. what u say about that?

[Canadian_F_H]

8 hours ago, xxxjtmxxx said:

on reddit people are sure that only the coils units are place on the table. everything else is in reserve. what u say about that?

That's what we thought initially, but our lawyer convinced us otherwise.  I'll go check what his explanation was. 

[Chaeron]

8 hours ago, Canadian_F_H said:

That's what we thought initially, but our lawyer convinced us otherwise.  I'll go check what his explanation was. 

I’d be very interested in this too: I imagine the interpretation might be framed around parity with the RoT units?

I think we’d all rather have more deployed, if possible!

Edited July 24, 2022 by Chaeron
Rephrase for clarity.

[xxxjtmxxx]

5 hours ago, Chaeron said:

I’d be very interested in this too: I imagine the interpretation might be framed around parity with the RoT units?

I think we’d all rather have more deployed, if possible!

yes, ill also.

 

[Balthamal]

That's why I'm leaning towards the second interpretation. The first feels so restrictive that it's essentially being useless unless you're talking the bleeding edge of good units (Suzerains/Firedrakes/Gal Vorbak) whilst the 3rd seems so good that it's borderline broken and offers the kind of utility that some legions can only dream of

[Chaeron]

I thought it was worth giving this a brief nudge to the top now the FAQ has provided clarity on this front. I’m wondering whether this changes your thoughts in relation to the RoW and whether you’d then utilise it in comparison to another? I thought it’d be interesting to hear from the collective.

[Cadmus Tyro]

Personally, I don’t think the RoW is viable and locking the unit type in to three of the same adds to the problem. You’re essentially left with the option of taking the more competitive choices such and Tyrants, Fulmentarus and Gal Vorbak. Units that have some chance of survival until your reserves arrive. Infiltrating three fully loaded Fulmentarus terminator units using Dynat or Alpharius would be pretty brutal. 

But at the point of including three units from a single legion, you may as well just play that legion and have more flexibility in list building and deployment. It’s also incredibly gamey to be including such competitive units and boring to build and model them. 

I’d rather use the Mobius Configuration warlord trait to represent what coils is supposed to represent. 
 

Cadmus 
 

 

[ashc]

On 9/26/2022 at 6:03 PM, Cadmus Tyro said:

Personally, I don’t think the RoW is viable and locking the unit type in to three of the same adds to the problem. You’re essentially left with the option of taking the more competitive choices such and Tyrants, Fulmentarus and Gal Vorbak. Units that have some chance of survival until your reserves arrive. Infiltrating three fully loaded Fulmentarus terminator units using Dynat or Alpharius would be pretty brutal. 

But at the point of including three units from a single legion, you may as well just play that legion and have more flexibility in list building and deployment. It’s also incredibly gamey to be including such competitive units and boring to build and model them. 

I’d rather use the Mobius Configuration warlord trait to represent what coils is supposed to represent. 
 

Cadmus 
 

 

Yes, I would mirror (some may say, Alpharius) Cadmus's statement here. The 3 of the same stipulation from the FAQ really hampers this both narratively (it's boring) and competitively (yes you can do it with some powerful units, but... Why?).

 

On 7/23/2022 at 5:48 PM, xxxjtmxxx said:

on reddit people are sure that only the coils units are place on the table. everything else is in reserve. what u say about that?

I actually reread it after having this pointed out to me but by the RAW you only need to have as many units in reserve as you have deployed using the RoT, and not the rest of your army.

 

[Chaeron]

On 9/26/2022 at 6:03 PM, Cadmus Tyro said:

Infiltrating three fully loaded Fulmentarus terminator units using Dynat or Alpharius would be pretty brutal. 

It’s very tempting, of course, to try this for research purposes… 

I’m currently thinking more about HL as my RoW over Mobius, but I’ll certainly give that a further look based on your suggestion.

[Ripper.McGuirl]

Yes, this clarification added a different kind of confusion to this Rite. Instead of wondering "what do they intend with the wording here?" I am left wondering "why would that be how they want this to be run?". It's a very strange way for them to go with this. Hopefully this is just them being conservative with this first round of clarifications. 
But as is, I would agree with the sentiment that this rite is just Not As Cool as running the Moebius Configuration. Granted, the intents are different. Coils represents the Alpha Legion with stolen/copied tactics, and Moebius represents the Alpha Legion duping some other chumps into getting shot instead of them. But even still, I'd rather paint up a neat little raven guard force or whoever, then paint the same number of models and not have a usable force because I have triples of the same unit from the same force org category and nothing from anything else.

[Cadmus Tyro]

11 hours ago, Chaeron said:

It’s very tempting, of course, to try this for research purposes… 

I’m currently thinking more about HL as my RoW over Mobius, but I’ll certainly give that a further look based on your suggestion.

Yes, after posting that statement I immediately made a list including 30 Fulmentarus and checked the price of tyrant missile launchers on a bits site….purely research…..

The issue with Mobius is that it’s a warlord trait, so it essentially locks you out of using Alpharius or Dynat. 

So far this edition I’ve found RoW isn’t essential, at least in my experience with the XXth. Getting access to a coils choice outside RoW is a great change which will encourage more modelling opportunities rather than locking you into a single RoW build. 

Recon company has some natural synergy with our legion and particularly with our warlord traits (generic and unique). 

Cadmus

Edited September 28, 2022 by Cadmus Tyro

[Ripper.McGuirl]

Yeah I had built a recon company force last edition and never played it much. I am looking forward to trying them out again.

I’m not too concerned with using Dynat or Alpharius, and getting the extra VP for Mobius can be a big deal. 
As for ROT, I am thinking of trying out some of the various other legion’s special consuls. 

[Xenith]

12 hours ago, Ripper.McGuirl said:

Coils represents the Alpha Legion with stolen/copied tactics

Rewards of Treason/Treachery represents the stolen formations - coils was previous just that - the hydra encircling and cutting off it's prey before letting the hammer fall, with appropriate penalties to opposing reserves and bonuses to our own as I recall. The current coils just repesents a false-flag ambush, and isn't as cool as the other, but is also in my opino DOA - 3 of my units vs my opponents entire army? No thanks. Personally instead of RoT units I'm looking at a moebius detachment and a HH leviathal.

[ashc]

4 hours ago, Xenith said:

Rewards of Treason/Treachery represents the stolen formations - coils was previous just that - the hydra encircling and cutting off it's prey before letting the hammer fall, with appropriate penalties to opposing reserves and bonuses to our own as I recall. The current coils just repesents a false-flag ambush, and isn't as cool as the other, but is also in my opino DOA - 3 of my units vs my opponents entire army? No thanks. Personally instead of RoT units I'm looking at a moebius detachment and a HH leviathal.

It doesn't have to be only 3 of your units - it just means you must have another 3 of your units ready to come in from reserves - the rest can deploy normally.

[Cadmus Tyro]

50 minutes ago, ashc said:

It doesn't have to be only 3 of your units - it just means you must have another 3 of your units ready to come in from reserves - the rest can deploy normally.

I don’t think that’s correct. The coils rule states that you must include a number of additional units equal to or greater than the number of units  selected using the RoT. It then goes on to state that these units must begin the game in reserve. 
 

If the word greater wasn’t in that paragraph, I might agree with you. The wording is a little off but essentially it’s saying you have to take at least three or more units (if you take 3 RoT units) and they must be kept in reserve.

I can’t argue it any other way.

Cadmus

Edited September 28, 2022 by Cadmus Tyro

[Chaeron]

12 hours ago, Cadmus Tyro said:

Yes, after posting that statement I immediately made a list including 30 Fulmentarus and checked the price of tyrant missile launchers on a bits site….purely research…..

The issue with Mobius is that it’s a warlord trait, so it essentially locks you out of using Alpharius or Dynat. 

I’m glad we are all doing such thorough research .

I realised the reason I’d overlooked Mobius near entirely was because of the allegiance and that very reason. I feel that definitely leads me down the Tyrants route, but that’s not a big issue!