Should Marines Lose Doctrines?

[The Emperors Champion22]

What if the ultramarines kept their devastator, tactical, and assault doctrine buffs, but other chapters gained something different instead?

 

like blood angels could get advance and charge, imperial fists could get +1 ballistic skill if they havent moved or are in cover. Those might be too broken, but since some chapters really dont make use of the doctrines except for half the game i was wondering what your thoughts were?

[Karhedron]

Most Chapters broadly follow the codex so Doctrines make sense. Themeatically only the totally non-compliant Chapters like Space Wolves or Black Templars could justify a different system IMHO. The problem then becomes balancing those abilities.

Personally I think the current system is OK. Chapters whose super-Doctrine is Devastator get the bonus early when their entire army is likely to be intact to benefit from it. Those with a Tactical doctrine can get it for 2 turns if they chose and Turns 2 and 3 are often the ones that decide the game. Those linked to the Assault doctrine often have ways to triggers their super-Doctrine early (both Blood Angels and Space Wolves can do this).

[Minsc]

Once upon a time I'd say "yes", but given the current armsrace in the game and especially now when CSM have been given their own version of doctrines, I'll say "no".

I might change my opinion again if (and thats a big if) SM become super-busted in our next codex, but now is now...

[Karhedron]

To be fair, the OP is not talking about ditching the faction super-bonus entirely (which would be unfair considering pretty much everyone gets one now) but whether Chapters other than UMs should get something different themed around their playstyle. My feeling is no for the reasons outlined above.

[Lemondish]

I feel like the current doctrine situation for Marines is best analyzed in three parts.

First, the doctrine system itself, where the army proceeds linearly through a series of buffs to various weapon types, is sound. Having said that, the core design is likely to change to match the new weapon type progression we see with the Heretics, i.e. rapid fire included in the first stage, assault carrying on into the third, etc. 

I'd say the second element is the buff that you receive while in these doctrines, and here I feel as if something should change. With AoC seemingly permanent after being part of the two most recent balance data slates, having the key element of an army wide buff be nullified by a large swath of the game's factions is not a good feeling. In comparison, the Heretics get what amounts to a +1 BS buff that even works for units with a 2+ skill. It is always useful.

The third piece of the puzzle, where loyalist Astartes armies gain a 'super doctrine' bonus in a preferred stage, is silly and should be scrapped entirely. 

All in all, I feel like every Chapter should get the same effect from doctrines and the unique flavour should be tied to their chapter trait and apply for the entirety of the match, not just during a turn or two. 

Edited July 21, 2022 by Lemondish

[Stealth_Hobo]

I think doctrines might be flavorful but clunky in practice. They're a bit too bookkeep-ish.

Also, I play IF and the way GW handled their rules left me feeling kinda cold towards doctrines in general. Having a better devastator doctrine means nothing when most, if not all, opponents targets are hiding behind cover and out of reach. Ditch 'em, I say! And make something that works for everyone.

[Lemondish]

5 hours ago, Stealth_Hobo said:

I think doctrines might be flavorful but clunky in practice. They're a bit too bookkeep-ish.

I've heard this before and to be honest I'm not sure what that really means. Forgive me for my ignorance, but do you mean that is difficult to keep track of in a match? Is this also something we'd say for things like Necron Command Protocols? 

[Stealth_Hobo]

7 hours ago, Lemondish said:

I've heard this before and to be honest I'm not sure what that really means. Forgive me for my ignorance, but do you mean that is difficult to keep track of in a match? Is this also something we'd say for things like Necron Command Protocols? 

Doctrines are not nearly as bad as Necron protocols. The way protocols were originally intended was simply dreadful! I know many Necron players simply didn't bother with them.

But yes, I have found them to be difficult to keep track of. By themselves doctrines don't look that bad, but when you have all the other rules and buffs coming from different sources, they are usually the first rule I forget to use.

[Medjugorje]

I think Doctrines are very easy. But I have a few beginners in my club ( and I want to say I think they are very intelligent) and they struggle with all that rules bloat with Legiontrait, Wantons, AoC, Stratagems, secoundaries, ....

 

So I think doctrines are not easy for beginners too - although they are much more easy compared to Necron command protocols.

[Lord_Ikka]

Command Protocols are alright as long as you have the cards- I'll put my always-on out and then just have to remember to flip the current round one each round (which I have forgotten anyway...). Doctrines I will forget often, simply because the -1 AP doesn't really come into play a lot for me due to AoC/armies with invulns like harlies/custodes/daemons...

I'd rather have a blanket doctrine rule that you can choose at the beginning of battle (maybe one that rewards specific army composition/chapter), rather than one that switches up. 

[Angelus Nex]

Doctrines are alright, but the 'super-doctrine' bonus is unballanced at the moment. I play Crimson fists, so I might be salty ;-).

However, I think the chapter bonus should not be doctrine depended. Just use the same template as CSM, a turn be turn bonus and a all attle chapter bonus and some chapter specific strategems.

At least for codex compliant chapters. BA, SW and Templars can get their own system.

[Orange Knight]

The Doctrines are unnecessary book keeping. Something 40k is suffering from a lot.

They should be rolled into the Chapter unique rules, and no longer revolve around abilities cycling from turn to turn.

I also think the 30k rules illustrate more interesting potential Chapter abilities.

[BLACK BLΠFLY]

As long as we get something equivalent or even better yet. It’s common to all factions now. For me it’s never been an issue to keep track through the course of a game.

[Lemondish]

I feel like the bookkeeping element is subjective - I've never played a faction that didn't have something I had to keep track of and remember to do. Are Marines expected to be a simpler straightforward faction and that's why this is a common criticism? Maybe in 8th I could see that being the plan, but it has long been abandoned in favour of complex, but I think thematic, rules. 

I love the progression of Doctrines thematically. I love how it really brings alive the idea of the combined arms approach to war the Astartes adhere to. I just don't like the super doctrine mechanic as it is impossible to balance effectively. 

[Orange Knight]

Why would an army which is famed for it's Tactical skills suddenly be worse at what it does best, by switching to a different set of tactics that might not be called for?

I think I would prefer the rules to echo the way they have been done in the new Chaos codex. Re-work the individual chapter abilities and take the best elements from bonus rules and doctrines, or create entirely new and more interesting rules.

Imperial Fists and Ultramarines, as an example, have much more compelling faction rules in the Horus Heresy. If those abilities were adapted for 40k, the armies would be better and more fun to play. This is just an example of how they could go into a different direction, instead of simply making slight changes to what already exists.

[Lemondish]

2 hours ago, Orange Knight said:

I think I would prefer the rules to echo the way they have been done in the new Chaos codex.

You mean like the way it follows a progression just like Doctrines...?

[Orange Knight]

Yes they do cycle through Wanton destruction, but they don't have super doctrines that apply to certain turns.

[Lemondish]

1 hour ago, Orange Knight said:

Yes they do cycle through Wanton destruction, but they don't have super doctrines that apply to certain turns.

Ah, then I totally agree - the so-called super-doctrines can go. I misunderstood what you were saying and thought you were talking about the whole Combat Doctrine system itself when you said they were unnecessary bookkeeping.

[BLACK BLΠFLY]

Super doctrines are what really define each Chapter. Non SM factions have basically the same thing. I doubt they will go away.

[Lemondish]

5 hours ago, Black Blow Fly said:

Super doctrines are what really define each Chapter. Non SM factions have basically the same thing. I doubt they will go away.

I disagree. Super Doctrines are just one way to really define each Chapter. They aren't even a really good way currently, to be honest. Too minor a bonus for too few turns in a game. 

There are other ways to define each Chapter. Currently, Blood Angels and Dark Angels are pretty popular competitively and they fight very differently, but in both cases their army identity is not limited to their super-dooctrines. It's usually their other army wide bonuses and unique units that define them. That can be true for everyone - we don't need to limit that identity to only one doctrine. 

Edited July 26, 2022 by Lemondish

[BLACK BLΠFLY]

Savage Echoes is really good. I wonder how many BA players want to give that up. Dark Angels of course get to just be better. Their Super Doctrine, is actually 3 different rules, meaning you’ll get to use extra rules every turn of the game.

Edited July 26, 2022 by Black Blow Fly

[Orange Knight]

I'm not suggesting the rules are simply scrapped.

I would prefer to see them dropped, but that each of the chapter tactics is bolstered and made to be more unique and impactful.

[Karhedron]

I play both Blood Angels and Space Wolves. I think it is a mistake to underestimate the super-doctrine bonuses as being too minor or effective for too few turns. Savage Echoes and Hunters Unleashed are both pretty powerful abilities and they kick in T3 which is exactly when most of your (remaining) units are likely to be within grappling range of the enemy. It can catch the enemy off-guard when that unit of Intercessors suddenly charges into combat with 4 attacks each, an extra AP-1 and +1 to Wound.

Both armies feature ways to get key units into the Assault Doctrine early if you are playing aggressively

[Lemondish]

Fair enough. I underestimated the importance of those bonuses as far as crunch goes. My experience of playing Codex Marines with super-doctrines is Imperial Fists and Deathwatch, and for IF it's basically worthless. I think I was letting that shade my perspective too much. 

[Subtleknife]

They should be scrapped fullstop imo.

They just feel bad thematically. Like why can't my super dooper soldiers go back into the devastator phase? There are so many ways that marines can be given flavour and uniqueness, I just find this way unnecessarily messy.