How many years is a marine year?

[Inquisitor_Lensoven]

Sort of like how we have dog and cat years. How many standard years would be a ‘year’ to marines?

partly thinking about how Dante says the new primaris don’t yet fight like blood angels, and wondering how many years or decades would be equivalent to a normal human going through a crash course in ‘fighting like X unit’ once already trained and having experienced combat.

[Lord_Ikka]

I think it is less about "fighting like X" and more about how some of the Primaris were made/trained by Cawl. It's pretty clear in the Dawn of Fire books that the Primaris raised and suspended in cryo-sleep by Cawl (the earliest ones) were trained in a very specific way- they were almost robot-like in their mindset and didn't really have initiative or engage in independent action. Not saying that they weren't good combatants, its just that their training was predicated on rational angles/rates of fire, predictive enemy movement, and application of reciprocal force; they aren't so good when something completely unexpected happens or when they are required to go "beyond" the book training. When integrated with their Firstborn Chapters, or setting out as their own Ultima Foundings, it seems like those strictures started breaking down and they became more "human" than previous. Timing wise, there wasn't any real indication of the length it would take to start having them "thaw", but it was more of an individual thing. 

Edited July 22, 2022 by Lord_Ikka

[Gederas]

18 minutes ago, Inquisitor_Lensoven said:

Sort of like how we have dog and cat years. How many standard years would be a ‘year’ to marines?

partly thinking about how Dante says the new primaris don’t yet fight like blood angels, and wondering how many years or decades would be equivalent to a normal human going through a crash course in ‘fighting like X unit’ once already trained and having experienced combat.

Depends on the planet they're on. For the most part it's not stated if Astartes age faster or slower than baseline humans.

[WARMASTER_]

On 7/22/2022 at 3:05 AM, Inquisitor_Lensoven said:

Sort of like how we have dog and cat years. How many standard years would be a ‘year’ to marines?

partly thinking about how Dante says the new primaris don’t yet fight like blood angels, and wondering how many years or decades would be equivalent to a normal human going through a crash course in ‘fighting like X unit’ once already trained and having experienced combat.

It’s not really a great metric to answer your second question as marines learn much faster than humans so whatever an equivalent year in age might be it wouldn’t have any indication to how fast they adapt new skills, as someone answered above they don’t fight like x chapter because they were trained outside of the chapter in Cryo-Sleep 

 

To answer the astartes ageing question though…

it’s an interesting topic with really old and muddled lore but I believe the current understanding is this… No astartes has ever died of old age but that doesn’t mean age doesn’t eventually affect their combat process [That’s No taking into account for battle damage which will definitely hinder them somewhat depending on the severity of his wounds and subsequent bionics that might be required]

Sigismund died at over 1000 years and was described as slowed by age, I’ve seen quotes of 300 years being around an astartes “midlife prime”. We also have codex entries of “young and brash” space marine captains at around 150years  we also usually get quotes that it’s incredibly rare for an Astartes to achieve veteran rank in less than a century of war 

So my guess would be around these figures if he’s not suffering from extensive battle wounds 

0/150 - considered young growing into his warrior abilities and maturity

150/550- Mid life prime for the astartes 

550/850 - Past his prime but still as dangerous from sheer experience and skill

850/Death - Older warrior who’s now definitely slowing from age  

Doesn’t really answer the original question fully but I’d say gives a rough guide on how experienced astartes might view each other by dent of service  

 

 

 

 

 

Edited August 3, 2022 by BladeOfVengeance

[Karhedron]

This is really had to measure, especially since Marines often spend a lot of time between campaigns in warp transit which does funny things to time.

Personally I think Marines do not usually last as long as some people think. We have outliers like Grimnar and Dante but they are exceptional. In the old Ian Watson books, Lexandro D'Arquebus of the Imperial Fists made Captain by his 70th year of service in the Chapter and there is no mention that this was uncommonly young. I would imagine Marines are considered to be ready to move from the Reserve Companies to the Battleline companies within a decade or so of completing their time in the Scout Company. I know Marines take a lot of effort to produce but look at the accounts we have of Chapters suffering heavy losses. I think that any Marine who makes 100 would definitely be either an officer or at least a member of the 1st Company by that point.

Only named Characters live for centuries IMHO. Most of the basic infantry in your army probably have decades of service under their (armoured) belts, not centuries.

[Inquisitor_Lensoven]

2 hours ago, BladeOfVengeance said:

It’s not really a great metric to answer your second question as marines learn much faster than humans so whatever an equivalent year in age might be it wouldn’t have any indication to how fast they adapt new skills, as someone answered above they don’t fight like x chapter because they were trained outside of the chapter in Cryo-Sleep 

 

To answer the astartes ageing question though…

it’s an interesting topic with really old and muddled lore but I believe the current understanding is this… No astartes has ever died of old age but that doesn’t mean age doesn’t eventually affect their combat process [That’s No taking into account for battle damage which will definitely hinder them somewhat depending on the severity of his wounds and subsequent bionics that might be required]

Sigismund died at over 1000 years and was described as slowed by age, I’ve seen quotes of 300 years being around an astartes “midlife prime”. We also have codex entries of “young and brash” space marine captains at around 150years  we also usually get quotes that it’s incredibly rare for an Astartes to achieve veteran rank in less than a century of war 

So my guess would be around these figures if he’s not suffering from extensive battle wounds 

0/150 - considered young growing into his warrior abilities and maturity

150/550- Mid life prime for the astartes 

550/850 - Past his prime but still as dangerous from sheer experience and skill

850/Death - Older warrior who’s now definitely slowing from age  

Doesn’t really answer the original question fully but I’d say gives a rough guide on how experienced astartes might view each other by dent of service  

 

 

 

 

 

I find it weird that years into being part of their chapters they don’t fight like their chapters.

particularly considering they learn so fast.

 

it takes roughly a year to get a human in real life to ‘fight like X’ and integrated into a military branch and a specific unit.

for the elite units it takes 3-5 years to make a SEAL, or ranger, etc. 

 

so it seems like it should only take a few years at most to get the new primaris integrated into their new chapter’s fighting styles.

[Inquisitor_Lensoven]

2 hours ago, BladeOfVengeance said:

It’s not really a great metric to answer your second question as marines learn much faster than humans so whatever an equivalent year in age might be it wouldn’t have any indication to how fast they adapt new skills, as someone answered above they don’t fight like x chapter because they were trained outside of the chapter in Cryo-Sleep 

 

To answer the astartes ageing question though…

it’s an interesting topic with really old and muddled lore but I believe the current understanding is this… No astartes has ever died of old age but that doesn’t mean age doesn’t eventually affect their combat process [That’s No taking into account for battle damage which will definitely hinder them somewhat depending on the severity of his wounds and subsequent bionics that might be required]

Sigismund died at over 1000 years and was described as slowed by age, I’ve seen quotes of 300 years being around an astartes “midlife prime”. We also have codex entries of “young and brash” space marine captains at around 150years  we also usually get quotes that it’s incredibly rare for an Astartes to achieve veteran rank in less than a century of war 

So my guess would be around these figures if he’s not suffering from extensive battle wounds 

0/150 - considered young growing into his warrior abilities and maturity

150/550- Mid life prime for the astartes 

550/850 - Past his prime but still as dangerous from sheer experience and skill

850/Death - Older warrior who’s now definitely slowing from age  

Doesn’t really answer the original question fully but I’d say gives a rough guide on how experienced astartes might view each other by dent of service  

 

 

 

 

 

So roughly a 1 marine year would be roughly 10 standard years.

[WARMASTER_]

1 hour ago, Karhedron said:

This is really had to measure, especially since Marines often spend a lot of time between campaigns in warp transit which does funny things to time.

Personally I think Marines do not usually last as long as some people think. We have outliers like Grimnar and Dante but they are exceptional. In the old Ian Watson books, Lexandro D'Arquebus of the Imperial Fists made Captain by his 70th year of service in the Chapter and there is no mention that this was uncommonly young. I would imagine Marines are considered to be ready to move from the Reserve Companies to the Battleline companies within a decade or so of completing their time in the Scout Company. I know Marines take a lot of effort to produce but look at the accounts we have of Chapters suffering heavy losses. I think that any Marine who makes 100 would definitely be either an officer or at least a member of the 1st Company by that point.

Only named Characters live for centuries IMHO. Most of the basic infantry in your army probably have decades of service under their (armoured) belts, not centuries.

The issue with your reasoning here is that you’re referencing really old lore that’s been superseded  a long time ago

Codex’s, Imperial Armours and BL books for the past 10 years or so has countless examples of space marines being many centuries old and it’s never taken as an oddity, that’s not just the famous named characters either as you say just captain X or veteran Y 

some examples 

AI 10 Badab War - 

Sokhar Bray'arth - “a veteran of centuries of warfare”

Pellas Mir'san - “He has held the position of the Captain of the Salamanders 2nd Company for more than a century and a half, and before that served as Chapter Champion for thirty years” [so was probably at least a century when he even made Chapter champion] 

War of secrets [A bad book I know] but company master Gabriel is noted to have 3 gold service studs so at least 300 years service to the chapter 

Black Templars latest Codex - “it is rare indeed for an Initiate to earn the rank before at least a century's service to the Chapter”

Helsreach Novel - Grimaldus [150yrs +] describing Cador of his squad “He is older than I, older by far. His decades within the Sword Brethren are behind him now; he was released with all honour when his advancing age and increasing bionics left him less than the exemplar he had been before”

The last example goes back to my prior post while I think it’s common for the veterans within an astartes chapter [so the top 10%] to be around 100 minimum and say 500+ for the few older ones, whilst it’s rare for an astartes to live that long because of their existence being almost Ceaseless war it definitely happens and quite often 

 

 

Edited August 3, 2022 by BladeOfVengeance

[BLACK BLΠFLY]

Not even close plus is really depends on which chapter but in general SM can live a long long time.

[Inquisitor_Lensoven]

I’ve always understood a typical astartes to be 100-200 years old 

captains around 250ish, and chapter leadership 250-400 with 500 being old, and Dante…well Dante being a relic.

 

also marines live longer than normal humans, and many humans live to 100+ even though they do dangerous work like inquisitors.

Edited August 4, 2022 by Inquisitor_Lensoven

[Karhedron]

8 hours ago, BladeOfVengeance said:

The last example goes back to my prior post while I think it’s common for the veterans within an astartes chapter [so the top 10%] to be around 100 minimum and say 500+ for the few older ones, whilst it’s rare for an astartes to live that long because of their existence being almost Ceaseless war it definitely happens and quite often 

It is the ceaseless warfare bit that makes me think the multiple centenarians in line squads. I think by the time a Marine reaches 100 they would be either an officer or in the 1st company. I will admit that promotion to the 1st company is based on merit rather than age but you get the point.

To take the Blood Angels (on of the longest lived Chapters) as an example, we have at least 2 instances in recent history where the Chapter has suffered such catastrophic losses as to threaten its continued existence. During the boarding of the Space Hulk "Sin of Damnation", the Chapter was reduced to only 50 survivors. During the Devastation of Baal, only 300 survived. The Crimson Fists suffered almost as badly during the destruction of their Fortress Monastery with only 100 or so survivors.

I think that such periodic catastrophes along with general combat attrition will mean the bulk of Marines in any Chapter will be under 100 years old. Any Chapter with companies full of multi-centennial Atsartes just isn't fighting hard enough. 

[WARMASTER_]

@Karhedron Fair enough mate, I gave quite a few examples from recent cannon sources and there’s probably hundreds more I could draw from if that’s how you feel then don’t let me stop you 

[Karhedron]

40 minutes ago, BladeOfVengeance said:

@Karhedron Fair enough mate, I gave quite a few examples from recent cannon sources and there’s probably hundreds more I could draw from if that’s how you feel then don’t let me stop you 

At the end of the day it is all justy headcanon really isn't it. I think in terms of named examples being outliers in terms of longevity. Either by luck or skill, they have survived long enough to become legends, even among their own long-lived kind. Heroes who rise through the ranks at a young age like Ragnar are usually noted as such. But that is just my take and I can't see GW ever going to the bother of publishing an age profile of astartes.

At the end of the day, it is all just a bit of fun speculating about a fictional universe. I am only seeking to explain my thoughts on the subject, not convince anyone that I am right.

[Felix Antipodes]

There’s also the veteran syndrome to consider.  There is probably an equivalent to the “15 Days” survival rate of the Astra Militarum wrt newly minted Astartes.  My head canon, for what it’s worth, is that a lot of the casualties would be at the early, sub-100 age level, before they perfect their fighting skills.

I’m just not sure how big a percentage veterans (post-100 years service) would make in an average Chapter.  Officers, NCO’s, Honour Guards and Command Squads as well as the 1st Company itself would possibly all come from this cadre.

[Inquisitor_Lensoven]

11 hours ago, Karhedron said:

It is the ceaseless warfare bit that makes me think the multiple centenarians in line squads. I think by the time a Marine reaches 100 they would be either an officer or in the 1st company. I will admit that promotion to the 1st company is based on merit rather than age but you get the point.

To take the Blood Angels (on of the longest lived Chapters) as an example, we have at least 2 instances in recent history where the Chapter has suffered such catastrophic losses as to threaten its continued existence. During the boarding of the Space Hulk "Sin of Damnation", the Chapter was reduced to only 50 survivors. During the Devastation of Baal, only 300 survived. The Crimson Fists suffered almost as badly during the destruction of their Fortress Monastery with only 100 or so survivors.

I think that such periodic catastrophes along with general combat attrition will mean the bulk of Marines in any Chapter will be under 100 years old. Any Chapter with companies full of multi-centennial Atsartes just isn't fighting hard enough. 

That’s only a few examples across 1000+ chapters, over 10,000 years.

 

those examples seem to be outliers rather than typical. For this to make sense most chapters would need to be almost completely destroyed to half strength or less once a century or more…

[BrainFireBob]

It's not the years.

It's the mileage.

We have a Salamander in stasis for 10k years in one BL book. We have Warp time dilation. 

 

In terms of headcannon, for me, Marine vets being comparable to their CSM peers is comparable time in combat, the CSMs just also have other skills due to doing, y'know, more things with their lives.

 

Recall too they don't have to sleep (catalapsean node). How do you map *that*?

[Karhedron]

13 hours ago, Inquisitor_Lensoven said:

That’s only a few examples across 1000+ chapters, over 10,000 years.

those examples seem to be outliers rather than typical. For this to make sense most chapters would need to be almost completely destroyed to half strength or less once a century or more…

I don't think so. How many Marines die in combat each year? How many initiates does the Chapter take on to replace them? Even if the Chapter only loses 10 Marines per year (a 1% attrition rate), 73% of Marines would die within their first century of service. That means only around a quarter of a Chapter would be in excess of 100 years old. No need for Chapters to regularly experience catastrophic losses for centenarian Marines to be the exception rather than the rule. To me, only losing 10 Marines per year feels a bit low compared to the stories we are given of Marines fighting some of the most gruelling and dangerous battles imaginable. I would imagine a higher attrition rate.

[Inquisitor_Lensoven]

6 hours ago, Karhedron said:

I don't think so. How many Marines die in combat each year? How many initiates does the Chapter take on to replace them? Even if the Chapter only loses 10 Marines per year (a 1% attrition rate), 73% of Marines would die within their first century of service. That means only around a quarter of a Chapter would be in excess of 100 years old. No need for Chapters to regularly experience catastrophic losses for centenarian Marines to be the exception rather than the rule. To me, only losing 10 Marines per year feels a bit low compared to the stories we are given of Marines fighting some of the most gruelling and dangerous battles imaginable. I would imagine a higher attrition rate.

That’s an extremely high attrition rate, especially for soldiers who are supposed to be the best of the best in the galaxy, with the best equipment available.

BA might be dragging the average down because of the rage, but 3-4 per year becoming casualties based on the description of how good and resilient they are in codex lore (BL will write that anyway they want to make a compelling story) indicates that they’re just very unlikely to die.

even if we take your numbers at face value, you those numbers don’t tell us who is dying each year. Is it 10 marines between 30-99 years old as your post kinda implies? Or are the losses spread across age groups giving those younger marines a chance to age?

dante dying would drastically drag the average down, but it wouldn’t change what the typical age of a marine is. 
 

However I’d also argue that codex chapters have things set up specifically to protect younger less experienced marines.

in the end we can make up whatever numbers we want to support our position since GW never gives those numbers, but what we do know is that there are plenty of sources that state marines in general live to be hundreds of year old.

Edited August 5, 2022 by Inquisitor_Lensoven

[BLACK BLΠFLY]

You have to give a lil flex - it’s not really real life. 

[Inquisitor_Lensoven]

3 hours ago, Black Blow Fly said:

You have to give a lil flex - it’s not really real life. 

#40kislife