Zooming Flyers and Interceptor

[depthcharge12]

Found some murky wording on the interactions of flyers arriving from reserves:

“Moves made by Zooming Flyers may not trigger Reactions, but Shooting Attacks madeby Zooming Flyers may trigger Reactions as normal”

“Interceptor - This Advanced Reaction may be made whenever an enemy unit enters play from Reserve within line of sight of a friendly unit, and within the maximum range of at least one weapon in that unit. ”

RAW I read that as zooming flyers arriving from reserves do not trigger interceptor because even though it is arrival from reserves, it is a move done during the movement phase. RAI I’m not sure that is intended considering last edition you were able to target flyers arriving from reserves with your helical targeting array.

 

Also supporting the RAW argument, is the last paragraph on interceptor:

“Unless otherwise specified by another rule, making this Reaction expends a point from the Reactive player’s Reaction Allotment for the Phase in which the Reaction is made”

The interceptor reaction has to be done in the movement phase (that’s when it triggers), so it likely qualifies it as a movement phase reaction. There is no “reserve phase” as reserves occur during the beginning of the movement phase.

 

Thoughts?

[SkimaskMohawk]

Well of you reread your interceptor quote, you'll notice that it doesn't talk about a move; what triggers interceptor is a unit entering play from reserve. Entering play =/= move.

The zooming flyer bit also doesn't say "reactions may not be made against a zooming flyer in the movement phase", so no, there's no raw argument to be made. 

Edited July 24, 2022 by SkimaskMohawk

[depthcharge12]

The exact wording is “moves made by a zooming flyer may not trigger a reaction.” Not movement phase. Arriving from reserves involves a movement.

Arrival, placement, and other terms are a non sequitur as they all involve a model moving. Interceptor triggers on arrival from reserves, correct, but then you have to find the maximum range of your weapons to target the zooming flyer. If arrival from reserves is separate from the movement phase, you are shooting a model off the board and you don’t have range.
 

The steps are not 1. Arrive from reserve 2. Intercept

It’s 1. Arrive from reserve 2. Move the model it’s set amount of distance in the movement phase (a “move” if you will) 3. Then trigger interceptor

You cannot parse the arrival without a movement, not to mention the interceptor action takes place in the movement phase.

 

“When a Reserve unit arrives, it must move onto the battlefield”

In the preceding paragraph to interceptor:

“If the Reactive player chooses to declare a Reaction in response to the movement of a unit that has entered play from Reserve that turn, then they may only use the Interceptor Reaction.”

 

In response to the movement of a unit. Movement and move are explicitly called out. Entering play from reserves involves a move, not an assault nor a shooting.

[SkimaskMohawk]

Yea you're not understanding.

Moves made by a zooming flyer don't trigger reactions. But movement isnt what triggers intercept; entering play from reserves is. It doesn't matter what phase it is, or what method of arriving from reserves is used, simply that a unit enters play from reserves. The act of moving is irrelevant to the triggering of the reaction, as deepstrike so clearly shows.

It's really very simple. What does interceptor tell you trigger it, and what trigger does zooming flyers tell you to ignore? Do they match? No. 

 

 

[Cruor Vault]

RAW is confusing and unclear, but I think the intention was to prevent one from using movement phase reactions to move infantry units in response to flyers moving around the table.

Interceptor and other similar reactions were inadvertently halfway/sorta lumped into them by poor word choice.

[TheTrans]

As what @depthcharge12 said, I think the "If the Reactive player chosses to declare a Reaciton in response to the movement of a unit that has enetered play from Reserve that turn, then they may only use the Interceptor Reaction." Firmly puts interceptor into essentially a reaciton based on movement, which Zooming Flyers cannot trigger. If they hover in, they can intercept all day!

Given how wide spread interceptor is now, Jink is gone and you can't evade in your own movement phase. I feel/hope (but that is giving the rules writers too much credit, in this current book I feel on any rule there is a 50/50 chance between oversight, or intention) that they've factored in that Flyers have copped all the negatives of this edition and not one of the positives, that maybe shooting them all out of the sky the turn they come in is pretty crappy.

If they could start on the board and reserving them was an option, than sure, maybe they should be able to intercept them, but every flyer, if interceptor is allowed against them, needs to factor in at most gets only 5 game turns and will be shot at by 0+X units before it gets to do anything in the battle except move, which is utter madness. 

[SkimaskMohawk]

11 minutes ago, TheTrans said:

As what @depthcharge12 said, I think the "If the Reactive player chosses to declare a Reaciton in response to the movement of a unit that has enetered play from Reserve that turn, then they may only use the Interceptor Reaction." Firmly puts interceptor into essentially a reaciton based on movement, which Zooming Flyers cannot trigger. If they hover in, they can intercept all day!

Given how wide spread interceptor is now, Jink is gone and you can't evade in your own movement phase. I feel/hope (but that is giving the rules writers too much credit, in this current book I feel on any rule there is a 50/50 chance between oversight, or intention) that they've factored in that Flyers have copped all the negatives of this edition and not one of the positives, that maybe shooting them all out of the sky the turn they come in is pretty crappy.

If they could start on the board and reserving them was an option, than sure, maybe they should be able to intercept them, but every flyer, if interceptor is allowed against them, needs to factor in at most gets only 5 game turns and will be shot at by 0+X units before it gets to do anything in the battle except move, which is utter madness. 

The interceptor reaction literally does not contain the word "movement" in its rules.  The rules are sloppy in a lot of places, but movement clearly isn't a trigger of interceptor, or else deepstrike would be immune.

And flyers got huge benefits. They got rid of vertical fire arcs and simplified/broadened the other ones, removing the huge blind spot close to their bases and made the restricted turning far less punitive. The fire raptor can shoot all of its weapons at the same target now. It's just the way the cookie crumbles. They can be killed more easily by the dedicated counters, but got a lot easier to use, cheaper (in the xiphons case) and far more damaging (in the fire raptors). But none of that about their strength changes what the interceptor reaction actually says about what triggers it. And it's not movement.

[TheTrans]

Mate I think you're activley ignoring the text that brings interceptor into the equation. 

[SkimaskMohawk]

I'm ignoring that text for two reasons.

1. It's not the rule for interceptor, and contradicts its rules on what triggers the reaction.

2. As an advanced reaction, it's criteria is noted in its description. Which is not the text under "moving on from reserves". 

So, there's contradictory text across the page, but the actual rules for the reaction tell you to use the actual rules for the reaction when triggering the reaction. 

Edited July 25, 2022 by SkimaskMohawk

[TheTrans]

Mate looks like we are going to lock heads on this one. 

Even if its the the rediculousness of you trying to tell me a moving flyer doesn't count as a moving flyer for the sake of something moving onto the board for something to then react to somthing that is moving. 

[GodEmperorOfMankind]

I'm gonna add my opinion here, and say that you can use interceptor on a zooming flyer when it enters from reserves. I'll explain shortly. 

I believe mowhawk is over thinking the technicalities of the words used, after all we know the GW writing teams isn't very specific when it comes to using terms.

However that said, interceptor states its an advanced reaction that is activated in specific and unique circumstances... And can often have game changing effects. 

It then states it can be made whenever an enemy unit enters play from reserve. 

So its called out that its a reaction that happens in specific circumstance, and it tells you when that happens. 

As for whether flyers got the short end of the stick, remember that this reaction can only be made once in the phase (normally) and that generally speaking you're going to have more than one reserve come in at once, so your opponent will have to choose carefully. 

Also let's remember that unless the shooting unit has sky fire, they will only be able to snapshot at the zooming flyer. 

[Stitch5000]

21 hours ago, depthcharge12 said:

Found some murky wording on the interactions of flyers arriving from reserves:

Thoughts?

It isn't murky, it's quite clear.

"Unlike Core Reactions, they are activated in unique and specific circumstances, as noted in their descriptions, and can often have game changing effects."

"Interceptor - This Advanced Reaction may be made whenever an enemy unit enters play from Reserve within line of sight of a friendly unit, and within the maximum range of at least one weapon in that unit."


Interceptor isn't a Reaction to movement, interceptor is a reaction to a unit entering play from Reserve, which is why you can do it against things that have Deep Strike as well as things that are Fliers. As mentioned, it just occurs in the movement phase currently. Who is to say that there isn't a method of entering from Reserves in a different phase in the future?

[depthcharge12]

Interceptor is triggered by a unit arriving from reserve, but you cannot ignore what is on the same page that illustrates what goes on with reserves:

“If the Reactive player chooses to declare a Reaction in response to the movement of a unit that has entered play from Reserve that turn, then they may only use the Interceptor Reaction.”

The interceptor reaction is a “response to the MOVEMENT of a unit that has entered play from Reserve.” You cannot separate arrival from reserves without movement.

 

That being said, I do want a FAQ around this and hope that you do get the ability to respond to zooming flyers, otherwise helical targeting arrays are far less useful than their intention (or my interpretation of their intention). This would also affect Combat Air Patrol as it is a reaction to another flyer moving on from reserves.

[GodEmperorOfMankind]

As far as I'm concerned you still can shoot a zooming flyer with interceptor, just snapshots. 

The reaction states its a special one and that it gets activated in unique circumstances, and says that circumstance is when a unit arrives in play from reserve.

To me that trumps the zooming flyer rule which says you can't react to zooming movement. 

Also, If you think about it from a non rules perspective (call it "real" life, or cinematic view) incoming flyers to the combat area would get picked up on augury and a unit would get a chance to ready weapons for a pop as it approaches the area, but once in combat airspace its moving too quick to allow a shot off before its whizzed by. 

 

Edited July 25, 2022 by Altis

[SkimaskMohawk]

1 hour ago, depthcharge12 said:

The interceptor reaction is a “response to the MOVEMENT of a unit that has entered play from Reserve.” You cannot separate arrival from reserves without movement.

Deepstrike. Which is why deepstrike makes sure to tell people they can't use reactions in the movement phase against deepstrikers (other than interceptor). 

[Stitch5000]

2 hours ago, depthcharge12 said:

Interceptor is triggered by a unit arriving from reserve, but you cannot ignore what is on the same page that illustrates what goes on with reserves:

“If the Reactive player chooses to declare a Reaction in response to the movement of a unit that has entered play from Reserve that turn, then they may only use the Interceptor Reaction.”

The interceptor reaction is a “response to the MOVEMENT of a unit that has entered play from Reserve.” You cannot separate arrival from reserves without movement.

 

That being said, I do want a FAQ around this and hope that you do get the ability to respond to zooming flyers, otherwise helical targeting arrays are far less useful than their intention (or my interpretation of their intention). This would also affect Combat Air Patrol as it is a reaction to another flyer moving on from reserves.

Again as noted in the Advanced Reaction box-outs are "Unlike Core Reactions, they are activated in unique and specific circumstances, as noted in their descriptions, and can often have game changing effects."

I'll repeat, it is not triggered by the movement of the unit coming in from reserves, rather it is triggered by fact the unit was in reserves and now isn't. (Just like you move a model onto the battlefield via Deep Strike but you don't actually get to use it's Movement Characteristic.)

In the passage you have quoted note that "movement" is not capitalised which means the word is not being used as in rules terminology.

[depthcharge12]

On 7/25/2022 at 11:26 AM, Stitch5000 said:

Again as noted in the Advanced Reaction box-outs are "Unlike Core Reactions, they are activated in unique and specific circumstances, as noted in their descriptions, and can often have game changing effects."

I'll repeat, it is not triggered by the movement of the unit coming in from reserves, rather it is triggered by fact the unit was in reserves and now isn't. (Just like you move a model onto the battlefield via Deep Strike but you don't actually get to use it's Movement Characteristic.)

In the passage you have quoted note that "movement" is not capitalised which means the word is not being used as in rules terminology.

But you are using the movement characteristic to move the model onto the board from reserves.

Interceptor is triggered on arriving from reserves, and deep strike is a good example of arriving without moving. It is placed onto the board. Flyers use their movement profile to measure from the edge of the board to their final spot. It involves a movement, and you are just being willfully ignorant.

 

If interceptor is triggered on arrival from reserves, you are targeting a unit without a distance because it hasn’t used its move to place itself on the board yet.

 

Here’s some more willful ignorance: “In the passage you have quoted note that "movement" is not capitalised which means the word is not being used as in rules terminology.”

On Page 309 in the preceding paragraph to interceptor is labeled in bold: Moving on from Reserve. It is capitalized and referenced as a move from reserves. Want to dispute that further? Here’s a quote from the first sentence: “When a Reserve unit arrives, it must move onto the battlefield from the controlling player’s battlefield edge.”

Flyer arrives from reserve (interceptor can’t target because it is not on the board for range calculation), then moves onto the board (zooming flyers cannot trigger a reaction as part of moving).

 

There are 0 times the zooming flyer is on the board from reserves without involving a movement.

[Stitch5000]

57 minutes ago, depthcharge12 said:

Here’s some more willful ignorance: “In the passage you have quoted note that "movement" is not capitalised which means the word is not being used as in rules terminology.”

On Page 309 in the preceding paragraph to interceptor is labeled in bold: Moving on from Reserve. It is capitalized and referenced as a move from reserves.

The reference you are using there is capitalised and in bold because it is a sub-header dude... 
 

59 minutes ago, depthcharge12 said:

But you are using the movement characteristic to move the model onto the board from reserves.

For other instances of a numerical characteristic being used for things over than what it is named, see "Psychic check", "Morale check", "Blind test", "Consolidation", "Run" etc etc etc... 

Not sure why you have started a thread and finished the OP with "Thoughts?" and become so defensive when somebody offers an opinion that differs from your own?

When it boils down, wouldn't it be pretty weird if an Advanced Reaction literally called "Interceptor" couldn't be used to "Intercept" (that's what it is technically called, in military parlance) incoming aircraft?

[SkimaskMohawk]

1 hour ago, depthcharge12 said:

There are 0 times the zooming flyer is on the board from reserves without involving a movement.

Fire raptor/storm eagle deepstrike...

[General Zodd]

14 hours ago, depthcharge12 said:

(Snip)

It involves a movement, and you are just being willfully ignorant.

(snip)

Here’s some more willful ignorance: “In the passage you have quoted note that "movement" is not capitalised which means the word is not being used as in rules terminology.”

I’ve been a passive observer in this discussion, but can I just say that accusing people of “wilful ignorance” just because they haven’t been swayed by your argument, or you don’t agree with the points they’ve made is really not a great way to approach any topic, let alone the correct way to push toy soldiers around.

You invited people’s thoughts, and some of them disagree with you. I see no indication that anyone is arguing in poor faith, or just being contrary for the sake of it. Please keep it civil.

[Xenith]

On 7/24/2022 at 3:39 PM, depthcharge12 said:

“Moves made by Zooming Flyers may not trigger Reactions, but Shooting Attacks madeby Zooming Flyers may trigger Reactions as normal”

“Interceptor - This Advanced Reaction may be made whenever an enemy unit enters play from Reserve within line of sight of a friendly unit, and within the maximum range of at least one weapon in that unit. ”

Like, the zooming flyers rule clearly [is intended to] relates to the "reactions if an enemy moves within 12" rule. "Enters play from reserve" is a different trigger. Entering play from reserve is not, in itself, a move, however it inflicts a 'status' on the model as it were. 

Edited July 29, 2022 by Xenith

[Slips]

My view of this is:

The only time a Flyer is said to EXPLICITLY enter play Zooming is after they have previously left the board zooming to re-enter reserves using "Leaving Combat Airspace". That said, it cant exit play and re-enter reserves the same turn it arrives on the board.

Since no Flyer explicitly, as far as I can see on page 218 of the BRB for flyers, says that they can enter play zooming outside of the portion referenced above and, that Zooming is a special form of Move flyers can make, then, for all intents and purposes, the first time they enter play using whatever valid method you decide for them, they are not Zooming.

Because of that, they are then able to be intercepted. If they survive, the Active Players turn continues as normal in the movement phase and they can then declare that the Flyer is Zooming and move it a minimum distance of its M characteristic up to a double that distance, etc.

However, the section on page 309 of the BRB "Moving on from Reserves" states that "If the Reactive player chooses to declare a Reaction in response to the movement of a unit that has entered play from Reserve that turn, then they may only use the Interceptor Reaction" coupled with "Leaving Combat Airspace" making it explicit that a Flyer re-entering play is Zooming means that, to me, in this scenario, it would be safe from Interceptor reactions.

+++

To Summarize:

• Flyer Entering Play for the first time? Can be Intercepted because Zooming can only be declared once the player starts moving the model after it enters play from Reserve, Deep Strike or Flanking Assault.
• Flyer Entering Play on a subsequent turn? Cannot be intercepted since it is explicitly said to be Zooming and entering play from Reserve is a 'move'.

[TheTrans]

Alas you declare before it moves onto the board.



So you could declare hover, and then hover onto the board and it would be open season for interceptor. 

Edited August 8, 2022 by TheTrans

[General Zodd]

I was listening to the Varangian Heresy podcast (episode 109), and they stated they’d asked this question of FW directly and received a response to the effect that Zooming Flyers entering play from reserve cannot be Intercepted.

No idea how official email responses are from FW, given I don’t know who actually authored the response, but make of that what you will!

[TheTrans]

G

On 8/11/2022 at 9:52 PM, General Zodd said:

I was listening to the Varangian Heresy podcast (episode 109), and they stated they’d asked this question of FW directly and received a response to the effect that Zooming Flyers entering play from reserve cannot be Intercepted.

No idea how official email responses are from FW, given I don’t know who actually authored the response, but make of that what you will!

Well it's what the rules say..soo ;). 

 

"Snideness" aside, it makes sense, flyers are one of very few units that don't get the option of starting in the board, have lost jink and can't really benefit from the new reaction mechanic at all...they needed something to help them.

 

Let's not even start on how stupid and no-brainer a CAP'd Xiphon is...at 105 points..God what where they thinking.