Zooming Flyers and Interceptor

[Mandragola]

Well a CAP Xiphon can only fire snap shots when it appears, thanks to more sub-par writing. 

Bring on the FAQ! I don’t know what the rule is or is supposed to be here. I think RAW perhaps suggests you can’t intercept here but I’m not at all convinced that’s RAI. What’s even the point of helical targeting arrays giving you sky fire and intercept, if you can’t intercept planes?

Currently though I think intercept probably does get caught by the exclusion of reacting to a zooming flyer’s movement. Just as you can’t advance or retreat, I think you can’t intercept.

But let’s check one thing then. Does CAP work at all? Isn’t that also triggered by a zooming flyer moving on - or not? I feel like either both of these things should work or neither, and CAP clearly has to be intended to work this way. 

[SkimaskMohawk]

17 minutes ago, Mandragola said:

Does CAP work at all? Isn’t that also triggered by a zooming flyer moving on - or not?

Much like interceptor, it's not triggered by the movement of the flyer, just by the flyer entering play from reserves. 

The same arguments for disallowing interceptor would disallow CAP if applied, hopefully ending the debate on the designers intent. 

[TheTrans]

Cap doesn't use the term Move, or the paragraph allowing it doesn't use the term move. It's just a Vehicle, with thr flyer type is brought in from reserve. There is no 'move' terms to muddy the waters. 

1 minute ago, SkimaskMohawk said:

Much like interceptor, it's not triggered by the movement of the flyer, just by the flyer entering play from reserves. 

The same arguments for disallowing interceptor would disallow CAP if applied, hopefully ending the debate on the designers intent. 

Incorrect. The thing that allows interceptor in the reserves rules specically states the only reaction to something moving on from reserves is interceptor...it states moving. I don't believe CAP does at all.

[Slips]

Entering play from normal reserves is explicitly called out as "moving onto the table" Page 309 AoD Rule book.

[SkimaskMohawk]

1 hour ago, TheTrans said:

Cap doesn't use the term Move

Neither does intercept...

 

1 hour ago, TheTrans said:

or the paragraph allowing it doesn't use the term move

The paragraph for arriving from reserves isn't the part of the interceptor rule. This has been said a lot, but the mechanics of advance reactions are given in the cut out of advanced Reactions.

Moving on from Reserves is also not the only place where the rules talk about interceptor. All the various alternate deployment rules have lines that talk about how the units trigger reactions; some of them arrive via movement (like reserves and outflank), while others don't (like deepstrike, area denial drop, drop pod assault, and subterranean assault). These lines are meant to lay out the unique sequencing and restrictions of the deployment, not variously enable Interceptor; it's trigger in the cut out already specifically does that. Its why outflankers can be fully reacted to; it's why area denial drop interceptor is free; it's why normal reserves don't proc movement reactions.

The argument that Interceptor activates off of movement requires the following:

- To discard the text in the Advanced Reaction box that says the reaction will describe its unique trigger (entering play from reserves).

- To take the interaction sentences from one of the six alternate deployment methods and give it primacy.

- To then claim the other interaction sentences are circumstantial exceptions; they now enable Interceptor to be used on things that entered play without movement.

Its just...a lot to ask; to ignore rules and supporting context and all that. I'd be fired from my job if I tried something similar with legal analysis.

@Slips it doesn't. The only other phrase that uses the term enter! play from reserves is this " response to the movement of a unit that has entered play from Reserve that turn". Everything else uses the term arrive(s/d).

[TheTrans]

I honestly think we can quote backwards and forwards til we are read in the face. Stuff supports both arguments and ot won't be 'agreed' upon until an FAQ hits. 

 

I think we can all agree these 2.0 rules are a bit of a cluster :cuss:, overly wordy, yet poorly written. 

[Lord Krungharr]

I fall on the side of SkiMask Mohawk.... entering from reserves is a separate characteristic of the Zooming Flyer coming onto the table from the actual Movement.  Movement is required IF the flyer is not deepstriking to enter from reserves, but only one means of entering from reserves.  The entering is a moment, on par with 'beginning or end of a phase'.  It happens before a Move.

I also think it's the intent that Interceptor to be able to do that.  I'd play and encourage it to be played that way.  Except when using my Kharybdis :p

 

[tinpact]

I wonder if there isn't some confusion with 40k's Deep Strike rules, where Deep Striking explicitly counts as moving for most purposes. At any rate, the crux of the issue is whether or not the act of a unit entering from reserves arriving on the board is meant to count as capital "M" moving.

As I understand it, all of the Reserves deployment methods involve making a move from a point (Deep Strike doesn't, but you can show up anywhere and it disallows a subsequent move and non-Intercept reactions) after which you place your models - there's never a time when they're on the board and not in their final positions, and you can arrive from Reserves without Zooming via a Hovering flyer (although if you leave and reenter you must Zoom).

Looking at it like this, Intercept procs off a unit arriving from reserves, which is a special kind of move or involves moving (while disallowing Intercepting units making other types of move, eg. Running), which also prevents Intercepting flyers that can only make Zoom moves.

However, I think it's worth considering the way Flanking Assault's wording differs from normal Reserves, since it specifies that it uses the normal rules for moving, disallows making any further moves, allows shooting and charging normally, and does not specify that you cannot use reactions other than Interceptor, while for normal Reserves the only restrictions are not being able to charge or use abilities that have to be used at the start of the turn (although double-moving a reserve unit doesn't seem right either), but the only reaction that may be made is Interceptor. So, this might imply that Flanking Assault is a move, while coming in from Reserves isn't.

Also, the issue of Deep Striking a Zooming flyer is problematic (does it just immediately wreck? In 1.0 you counted as having moved at cruising speed, but I can't find an equivalent rule in 2.0). The fliers in the Legacies PDF have Deep Strike but not Hover, and presumably (as great an assumption as that may be) they're supposed to be usable.

Overall, even if the writing could be clearer, I don't think this interpretation breaks anything - a non-Hovering flyer has a good chance of being off the table for most of the game, and your Skyfire shooting will still work while it's on the table. But ultimately I think the rules are just kind of half-baked in parts and I don't think this is an issue that can be completely resolved until an FAQ clarifies exactly what kind of action arriving from Reserves is. Also, what's the point of anti-aircraft guns if you can't hit the jet fighters?

[Lord Krungharr]

Certainly a muddy topic and I can see it both ways.   But I agree, what's the point of AA guns and helical and similar gear if they can't surprise-whack zoomers?    No biggie, not doing any HH tournaments anytime soon, though hopefully next spring Adepticon will have one.   They'll FAQ it if GW hasn't done so.   

[TheNineteenth]

On 8/11/2022 at 7:52 AM, General Zodd said:

I was listening to the Varangian Heresy podcast (episode 109), and they stated they’d asked this question of FW directly and received a response to the effect that Zooming Flyers entering play from reserve cannot be Intercepted.

No idea how official email responses are from FW, given I don’t know who actually authored the response, but make of that what you will!

Emails from FW are approximately as authoritative as calling the Mail-order/Rules  Trolls in the old days: like asking a Magic 8 Ball... It seems your question was understood, but the answers are rote and unconvincing for your friends. 

[Stitch5000]

FAQ is up...

[depthcharge12]

2 hours ago, Stitch5000 said:

FAQ is up...

Marked as solution, they resolved it!

[Lord Krungharr]

Where are people finding any FAQs lately....I go to Warhammer-Community.com and the FAQ drop down menu says all records expunged.  Been that way for a few weeks now, and it screwed me over at an AoS tournament recently.

[Spagunk]

31 minutes ago, Lord Krungharr said:

Where are people finding any FAQs lately....I go to Warhammer-Community.com and the FAQ drop down menu says all records expunged.  Been that way for a few weeks now, and it screwed me over at an AoS tournament recently.

That just started happening for me. I was able to go to the FAQ page about 2 hours ago and now I can't.

 

EDIT: This path seems to work https://www.warhammer-community.com/faqs/#the-horus-heresy

Edited September 21, 2022 by Spagunk

[SkimaskMohawk]

The usa/canadian version of the faq/download area has been broken for weeks. If you change the flags to the British one it works.