Chapters founded with or that have integrated a second gene line?

[Inquisitor_Lensoven]

Was just wondering if since the scouring there’s been any canon examples of chapter being made up of two or more geneseeds?

[MadGreek]

There is something called Chimeric Gene-seed. I'd google it. Think there area a few Chapters that are rumored to have been created using spliced gene-seed, not sure it is canonically confirmed.

Edit - Just re-read your question and hope I answered correctly. Did you mean Marines in a single chapter where different Marines are bred from different Gene seed? Kind of like the Death Watch, but an actual Chapter? That I do not know.

Edited July 25, 2022 by MadGreek

[Inquisitor_Lensoven]

48 minutes ago, MadGreek said:

There is something called Chimeric Gene-seed. I'd google it. Think there area a few Chapters that are rumored to have been created using spliced gene-seed, not sure it is canonically confirmed.

Edit - Just re-read your question and hope I answered correctly. Did you mean Marines in a single chapter where different Marines are bred from different Gene seed? Kind of like the Death Watch, but an actual Chapter? That I do not know.

yes, sort of like the death watch, but a permanent chapter, not an inquisition lackey chapter that rotates battle brothers in and out of it.

[Jamafore]

The first question I had when I read that is "Why would you want to?" and the second question was "How would they keep the multiple gene-lines separate?"

My reasoning here is that let's say you have a chapter with White Scars and Imperial Fists geneseed, ignoring the possibility of using this line as a traitor descendant. What would the 2 lines give you that would make it a benefit? And as for the separate question, eventually I would think that there would be some cross-contamination of the genelines eventually. Like saying implanting a Fist ossmadula (sp?) in an aspirant with Scar everything else. What complications would that have? Also there's the whole tradition thing that cannot be discounted.

Not saying it's impossible, just throwing that out there. Most likely, IMO, if you had a founding cadre from a different line, they would either return it to the parent chapter, or put it on ice with a big sign saying "Do Not Use"

[Gamiel]

30 minutes ago, Jamafore said:

"How would they keep the multiple gene-lines separate?"

That's the job of the Apothecaries

[Karhedron]

I don't know of any confirmed examples of chapters with mixed lineages. One of the HH short stories confirms that both the Imperial Fists and Ultramarines absorbed Astartes from the 2nd and 11th Legions when they were disbanded. What is not clear is what happened after that. Do successor Chapters from these Legions have mixed Geneseed to this day. Were the absorbed Marines kept separate and simply allowed to serve until they died out? Were they kept separate so that here are still Chapters out there with pure 2nd and 11th Legion geneseed? GW has not answered these questions but from the POV of your own army, I think you can probably justify whatever approach you wish to take.

[Captain Idaho]

I actually don't think the Ultramarines or Imperial Fists absorbed the Missing Legions Marines, or at least it was definitively stated. I could be wrong.

The Imperial Fists, Ultramarines and Word Bearers were involved in the pacification of Lunar and the genecults there, resulting as a reward for their geneseed to be diddled with to grow and develop more efficiently, quickly and be very stable, as stated in Praetorian of Dorn.

It's a spoiler but:

Spoiler

Wasn't the Huscurl of Dorn in said book a Son of Horus that was moved to Imperial Fists, implying he has a different genetic lineage? Or was he a recruit that got the wrong geneseed and shipped elsewhere?

I can't remember now.

 

[Karhedron]

2 hours ago, Captain Idaho said:

I actually don't think the Ultramarines or Imperial Fists absorbed the Missing Legions Marines, or at least it was definitively stated. I could be wrong.

For a long time, this was in-universe speculation that came from a couple fo Word Bearers trash-talking the UMs in First Heretic.

However tha short story "The Chamber at the end of memory" actually makes it concrete with Malcador confirming that Dorn and Guilliman came up with the plan and Malcador implemented it. If you don't mind spoilers, you can read the crucial paragraphs here.

https://www.reddit.com/r/40kLore/comments/b3dc0u/shortstory_excerptthe_chamber_at_the_end_of/

[Valkyrion]

2 hours ago, Captain Idaho said:

I actually don't think the Ultramarines or Imperial Fists absorbed the Missing Legions Marines, or at least it was definitively stated. I could be wrong.

The Imperial Fists, Ultramarines and Word Bearers were involved in the pacification of Lunar and the genecults there, resulting as a reward for their geneseed to be diddled with to grow and develop more efficiently, quickly and be very stable, as stated in Praetorian of Dorn.

It's a spoiler but:

  Hide contents

Wasn't the Huscurl of Dorn in said book a Son of Horus that was moved to Imperial Fists, implying he has a different genetic lineage? Or was he a recruit that got the wrong geneseed and shipped elsewhere?

I can't remember now.

 

Spoiler

Are you thinking of Torghun, the recruit that got sent to the White Scars instead of the Sons of Horus, and declared himself for Horus when the HH began? - Scars.

The huscarl leader is Archamus, but when he died his successor became Archumus too, so whilst they won't have different genetic lineage, they are two different beings with the same name and rank. 

 

[Captain Idaho]

5 hours ago, Valkyrion said:

  Hide contents

Are you thinking of Torghun, the recruit that got sent to the White Scars instead of the Sons of Horus, and declared himself for Horus when the HH began? - Scars.

The huscarl leader is Archamus, but when he died his successor became Archumus too, so whilst they won't have different genetic lineage, they are two different beings with the same name and rank. 

 

That's it, I'm using the wrong reference there. Knew it happened.

We don't have much information on collection of geneseed. I guess it's a boring post battle operation eh. Would they collect off someone "flagged" as foreign? Are they even.

I'd imagine they'd test it surely so if it has anything outside certain parameters it likely gets burned. 

6 hours ago, Karhedron said:

For a long time, this was in-universe speculation that came from a couple fo Word Bearers trash-talking the UMs in First Heretic.

However tha short story "The Chamber at the end of memory" actually makes it concrete with Malcador confirming that Dorn and Guilliman came up with the plan and Malcador implemented it. If you don't mind spoilers, you can read the crucial paragraphs here.

https://www.reddit.com/r/40kLore/comments/b3dc0u/shortstory_excerptthe_chamber_at_the_end_of/

I didn't know that existed. I'll read that since, well the cat is out the bag now!

Interesting. 

[Captain Idaho]

That was a great extract. Wow the mystery of 40K touched upon, danced around then left hanging tantalisingly. Bravo.

But I dispute it states the Ultramarines and Imperial Fists absorbed the Legions. It is never stated, but instead it states thus:

Spoiler

"The legionaries they left behind, leaderless and forsaken, were too great a resource to be discarded out of hand. They did not share the fate of their fathers. You and Roboute argued in their favour, but you do not recall it.' Malcador nodded to himself. 'It fell to me to see that they were attuned to new circumstances."

What are those circumstances? Were they implanted with the Nails and sent to die in a Legion that cared not for their survival anyway? Were they spread amongst all the Legions broadly as new recruits?

Were they sent into conflict to die in attrotional warfare? Both the Dark Angels and Ultramarines fought in gruelling campaigns that saw massive losses.

We don't know which is great. 

[BLACK BLΠFLY]

Honsou of the Iron Warriors was Imperial Fist gene seed grafted onto Iron Warriors by Bile… talk about messed up.

[Jamafore]

On 7/26/2022 at 1:32 AM, Gamiel said:

That's the job of the Apothecaries

True, but eventually someone's going to either forget that they are doing so, or why, or screw up somewhere. Also unless the difference is visible, will they even know to label it differently?

 

Edit for spelling

Edited July 28, 2022 by Jamafore

[Karhedron]

11 hours ago, Captain Idaho said:

But I dispute it states the Ultramarines and Imperial Fists absorbed the Legions. It is never stated, but instead it states thus:

  Reveal hidden contents

"The legionaries they left behind, leaderless and forsaken, were too great a resource to be discarded out of hand. They did not share the fate of their fathers. You and Roboute argued in their favour, but you do not recall it.' Malcador nodded to himself. 'It fell to me to see that they were attuned to new circumstances."

A good point. I had exrapolated Dorn and Guilliman coming up with the plan to mean that it was thir Legions who absorbed the orpaned Astartes but that is not explicitly stated.

Althought it would add exatr weight to Dorn's "You are not my son!" line to Sigismund. It would also explain why the Templars seem quite different to the other IF sucessor Chapters.

[Captain Idaho]

1 hour ago, Karhedron said:

A good point. I had exrapolated Dorn and Guilliman coming up with the plan to mean that it was thir Legions who absorbed the orpaned Astartes but that is not explicitly stated.

Althought it would add exatr weight to Dorn's "You are not my son!" line to Sigismund. It would also explain why the Templars seem quite different to the other IF sucessor Chapters.

I like the idea and let's be honest that any absorption into other Legions would likely see the Ultramarines and Imperial Fists involved for sure.

I like to think it was a spread around all of them, or at least the few who met the 2 brothers and seemed to be involved. To have as little impact as possible and spread the responsibility. 

Whether the Primarchs remembered who was or wasn't their sons is interesting having read that extract?

It would make sense the Mortifcators from 40K came from an entire Chapter of Ultramarines that itself wasn't actually Ultramarines, since they are so radically different.

Anyway, we definitely don't have any concrete proof of what happened to the missing Legions despite this conjecture that I do personally think is possible at least in part. Could be something completely different and nothing at all to do with absorption. 

Edited July 28, 2022 by Captain Idaho

[Brother Tyler]

I would hate for differences between Chapters, especially compared to their parent Legions, to be explained away as those Chapters having the gene-seed of the IInd and XIth Legions. For one thing, that would be lazy and would imply that all Chapters' natures are completely the result of their gene-seed. For another, it would limit the personalities of Chapters, meaning that all Chapters are recognizable as descending from one of the original Legions. That's not how things work in the real world (compare snapshots in time of representatives of any group that has existed for over a century) and I doubt that the Legiones/Adeptus Astartes are immutable across the ten or so millennia that have transpired since the Great Crusade.

 

As for the main point of the discussion, we simply don't know. We know that Chapters have merged because canon tells us this has happened. Granted, the last time I recall seeing this was back in 3rd edition, but nothing more recent has superseded that lore (as far as I know). I always assumed that such mergers were only viable when the two Chapters were descended from the same Legion. However, the lore never explicitly told us that was the case. It's possible that Chapters descended from different gene-lines may have mixed. Whether or not such mergers were sustainable is anyone's guess. Games Workshop has told us that gene-lines were deliberately segregated, but they haven't said that such segregation was absolutely necessary. For all we know, combining gene-seed from multiple Legions into a sustainable hybrid (chimeric) gene-seed is possible and may have taken place (I'm looking at you, Cursed Founding).

 

As for individual examples like Honsou, I'm not sure if those are necessarily relevant because the involvement of Chaos (space magic) allows for contradictions to the fictional laws of physics/biology that otherwise apply.

[Captain Idaho]

Yeah I wouldn't like a hand waved "all deviance is genetic" either.

But some notable exceptions would be cool too. Like a best of both worlds scenario. 

A good example is the Ultramarines Destroyers Company in the HH. Ultramarines who are the sons of Guilliman but ill favoured and resentful for it. I wouldn't want them to just become another genetic lineage. 

But there's definitely scope for some Chapters and Marines to be genetically aberrant. 

[Gamiel]

On 7/28/2022 at 9:58 AM, Jamafore said:

True, but eventually someone's going to either forget that they are doing so, or why, or screw up somewhere. 

Forget why they are doing it? That's standard for the Imperium. Everywhere there are rituals that people don't know why they are doing just that they need to do them, some of them are important (like they keep machinery working) while others have become meaningless. 

 

Quote

Also unless the difference is visible, will they even know to label it differently?

Marines are individuals each with their own individual armour, while we have hard time telling their difference their brothers have no problem doing so. That means that the Apothecary knows whose organs he is harvesting, and in this kind of concept (and likely in many chapters who don’t have combined linages) do they mark whose gene-seed they taking and keep lists of the gene-seed-lines created. And even if they have forgotten by know why they do it would they continue to keep what are two gene-lines separate.

 

But then again lots of fun (as in problematic for the chapter) lore things could come from a chapter made up by two gene-lines that have, by mistake or by them forgetting to keep them separated.

[WARMASTER_]

To answer the original question

Yes…Kinda 

we know as of the latest Carcharodon novels that some of their astartes posses WE gene seed and maybe other legions

as regards to viability we know it’s possible from all of the chaos warbands in operation especially the Red Corsairs and Black Legion as they’re made up of stollen gene seed and mix legion/chapter forces 

apart from gene seed purity and specific implantation requirements of the initiate I really can’t see how it would make much difference to the battle brothers of the chapter, chapters sharing the same linage often have entirely clashing battle preferences and chapter cults 

 

Edited August 2, 2022 by BladeOfVengeance

[Inquisitor_Lensoven]

5 minutes ago, BladeOfVengeance said:

To answer the original question

Yes…Kinda 

we know as of the latest Carcharodon novels that some of their astartes posses WE gene seed and maybe other legions

as regards to viability we know it’s possible from all of the chaos warbands in operation especially the Red Corsairs and Black Legion as they’re made up of stollen gene seed and mix legion/chapter forces 

apart from gene seed purity and specific implantation requirements of the initiate I really can’t see how it would make much difference to the battle brothers of the chapter, chapters sharing the same linage often have entirely clashing battle preferences and chapter cults 

 

Most of the issues would likely stem from using cursed/flawed geneseeds I imagine.

[Captain Idaho]

Weren't the Marines Errant lured away from their Fortress Monastery so their gene repository could be pilfered? Off the top of my head the Marines Errant were Ultramarines lineage.

It definitely happens in a Chaotic, renegade sense. It's notable the targeted geneseed is Ultramarines which makes sense since they're renowned for their genetic purity. If you're on the lamb, you need everything to be stacked in your favour as possible after all.

The inter-Chapter politics would be interesting to read about with openly known differences in genetic lineage within the Chapter.

Loyalist Marines in particular are very reverential to their genetic lineage and worship their Primarchs on an almost religious level. If all of a sudden half the Grey Hunters pack have a genetic line back to Corax, it'll cause a lot of problems. 

We have to remember that geneseed does lead to certain patterns of behaviour beyond just doctrinal reinforcement. Word Bearers are prone to extreme obedience, Ultramarines are prone to analytical and clinically steady procedures. It's not universal but it's definitely a trait quite likely to manifest.

There are physical tendencies too, ranging from coal black skin and red eyed descendents of Vulkan to the fanged maws and superior senses of smell of the Space Wolves. They'd be quite notable amongst the brethren after all.

Mixing Chapters would potentially be quite divisive within Chapter Cults. How do you pay homage to your genesire if you know that it isn't yours? How could your brothers trust you when you're not being sincere?

It's all quite interesting.

[Karhedron]

For Chapters who know their genetic lineage, the issue of mixed geneseed would potentially be problematic but not all Chapters know their ancestry. Having 2 distinct genelines in such a Chapter would be a less of an issue as Emperor worship would not be contentious. Mind you, I would imagine most Chapters now know their lineage thanks to Cawl's Primaris reinforcements. I wonder if that led to any "interesting" conversations about parentage.

Another option is that of Chimeric geneseed. Imagine you wanted to cure the Red Thirst while preserving some of the other positive attributes of the Blood Angels. You could implant a subject with mostly BA organs but a UM Omophagea. You could in theory create a Chapter that draws from multiple Primarchs whilst still having all its Marines share the same geneseed. I have no idea if such a thing is possible or has happened but it seems like the sort of tinkering and experimenting that would appeal to Cawl similarly minded experimenters. Given that the Primarchs are all derived from the same base genetic code, it seems possible in theory.

[Captain Idaho]

I'm sure that was the whole thing with the Cursed Founding, or at least rumours of.