Tabletop Minions - Why Isn't Wargaming Dead?

[Brother Tyler]

There is a ton of great wargaming content out there on the Internet. One of the YouTube channels I watch is Tabletop Minions. They (he) posted a great general interest video earlier today and I thought that some of you might be interested in watching. Basically, he begins by mentioning the long-touted inevitable death of our hobby and how the actual state of our hobby is quite different from the doomsaying.

Games Workshop is mentioned quite often, naturally, since they are the dominant presence in the hobby.

If you like the video, you can find more great content from Tabletop Minions at their YouTube channel: https://www.youtube.com/user/tabletopminions

[twiglets]

GW seems very aware of the aging out issue considering they made Warhammer Adventures, a book series aimed at the 3-12 range lol.

 

Good videogames definitely seem like the most effective tool at getting people into the hobby. Considering the glut of what looks to be some really good videogames on the horizon that can only mean good things for Warhammer. Space marine 2, Darktide, Boltgun, Roguetrader, Immortal Empires, shootas blood n teef.

I actually think this might be the largest thing that is holding Age of Sigmar back right now. The models for AoS are fantastic, the game is great to play, and the lore has become pretty good. But its really hard to get people to give it a chance. If it has a moment like Dawn of War 1 that can show off the setting and characters properly then it might blow up.

Warhammer+ is interesting, we know that videogames are effective, but this is pretty much untested. I suppose its quite appealing for someone who is deep into the 40k lore but not into the hobby, they get access to the shows that cant be gotten elsewhere, and after a year they get their first model naturally alongside it and can try the hobby out. It's an interesting experiment. Although obviously there are things they can improve on, uploading the first episode of each season to YouTube, an animation each week etc etc.

The next biggest thing has to be Eisenhorn. I suspect GW has trouble getting any investment into any warhammer show or movie because Hollywood investors will try to change everything like they did with Halo, and GW apparently absolutely hates that kind of IP changing. Honestly I half think GW should just eat the cost themselves even if its painful, getting that first show done and showing that there is an audience for grimdark will probably make the next show or movie a lot easier to get funding for.

 

 

Edited July 31, 2022 by twiglets

[Captain Idaho]

This is an enjoyable video. It makes me feel better to watch, as I love the hobby.

My own personal circumstances have seen a problem in getting my kids to play 40K. They're just not into it due to the effort. They like the painting but the gaming is just wearing them out and seems like work to them. They would rather play a PS5 unfortunately.

My friend has seen the same thing with his 11 year old.

So I hope that that isn't the norm and an anomaly! I suspect the hobby will call to them stronger when they get older! Which I think is the likely thing to happen.

Edited July 31, 2022 by Captain Idaho

[excelite]

2 hours ago, Captain Idaho said:

…They're just not into it due to the effort. …

So I hope that that isn't the norm and an anomaly! …

I don’t want to take this too far outside the hobby realm, but I don’t think this is an anomaly, it matches pretty well with what I’ve seen during my job training as well as college education and even gaming.

When I asked a buddy of my youngest brother why he’d watch a streamer playing a single player game instead of playing himself, the answer was that it’s too much work to figure the game out and he thinks he’d never figure out on how to progress (we were talking about the game Prey).

with that in mind it, to me it seems very plausible that complex games like warhammer will have a hard time to get people put effort into, especially as the effort needs to be put in up front.

[Slave to Darkness]

4 hours ago, Captain Idaho said:

This is an enjoyable video. It makes me feel better to watch, as I love the hobby.

My own personal circumstances have seen a problem in getting my kids to play 40K. They're just not into it due to the effort. They like the painting but the gaming is just wearing them out and seems like work to them. They would rather play a PS5 unfortunately.

My friend has seen the same thing with his 11 year old.

So I hope that that isn't the norm and an anomaly! I suspect the hobby will call to them stronger when they get older! Which I think is the likely thing to happen.

My missus read your post over my shoulder and agrees with your kids, the game is a pain in the rear to play as its a hot broken mess, cant pull in new players when its currently more paperwork than Rogue Trader to play a game. 

 

It seems like the younger generations are just interested in flashing lights and bad sound cloud rappers than a damn god time throwing dice around with your mates. 

[phandaal]

4 hours ago, Captain Idaho said:

So I hope that that isn't the norm and an anomaly! I suspect the hobby will call to them stronger when they get older! Which I think is the likely thing to happen.

This is not an anomaly. Young kids and teenagers are just wired differently than older people. An adult can sit there and paint for hours at a time, whereas most kids will go nuts if you try to keep them sitting still for that long.

Also the timescale for things feels different for adults than it does for kids. An older person is fully capable of making a little bit of progress on an army for a year or more. A kid will give up or not start because they perceive time differently.

A kid would get into the hobby in a different way or on a smaller scale than an adult, then pick it up full scale as they get older.

Edited July 31, 2022 by phandaal

[Captain Idaho]

I still plug away with the boys. Little bits of easy painting for fun etc. I'm hoping they get more into geeking when older. (Fingers crossed)

I remember the restrictions on easy gaming when we were kids. Most working class families like mine only had 1 TV and you had to ask a parent if you could play a video game for like an hour. There was a requirement to entertain oneself growing up.

1 hour ago, Slave to Darkness said:

My missus read your post over my shoulder... 

I feel like such a celebrity! 

[Captain Idaho]

Oh I'm all for making the topic all about me lol

Seriously though, good points and we can extend that all young people we might want to show the virtues of our hobby to.

Space Marine 2 is out this year and both my boys are looking forward to it. It think you're right, it can be the cultural exposure we need.

As for the game... yes it's just not too easy to pick up and play right now. I've played some stripped down versions of the game which is good but a new edition could help that.

I think when they're older they'll be amenable to the concept of the wider game.

[Captain Idaho]

I've done more with the hobby in the past 6 years than ever before, so the original video this topic is about is quite accurate when it points out a lot of folk are older (I think he mentions grew hair!) and more appreciative.

The older one likes CoD shooters and has been into Fortnite, with both playing Minecraft and FIFA. Maybe Blood Bowel might be a good feeder game. Smaller scale etc.

Space Marine 2 is the good benchmark I think as things stand. Recognisable protagonists and all that.

[Slave to Darkness]

Funny, this topic pops up and today my neighbour took his 4 year old past the local GW and now he wants the cool soldiers, he came round with his dad and had a look at my Guard earlier and now it seems I brainlessly offered to teach his kid how to paint... Well thats gonna give me bad flashbacks to when I worked for GW, as I was the new kid it was my job to show the lil Snotlings how to paint, so much spilled paint, brushes stubbed to death and knocked over water jars. *Stresses gasmasked noises*

[Slave to Darkness]

Fire Warrior was fun back in the day, even if I did play a dodgy Tau. As soon as I got Imperial weapons I felt much better, the Chaos Bolter though when it fired, that noise!!! 

 

I agree with Trysanna on the Guard though, bit of CoD style gaming against Nids or Eldar would be sweet. Krieg vs Vraks would be better!!! 

Edited July 31, 2022 by Slave to Darkness

[Captain Idaho]

Good idea. CoD would be a great way to harken back to their interests. 

[Silas7]

4 hours ago, Captain Idaho said:

Oh I'm all for making the topic all about me lol

Seriously though, good points and we can extend that all young people we might want to show the virtues of our hobby to.

Space Marine 2 is out this year and both my boys are looking forward to it. It think you're right, it can be the cultural exposure we need.

As for the game... yes it's just not too easy to pick up and play right now. I've played some stripped down versions of the game which is good but a new edition could help that.

I think when they're older they'll be amenable to the concept of the wider game.

Did you try showing them one page rules? I've never taken a moment to look them over but TTM also recently covered them 

 

[Noserenda]

Advertise, thats what they need to do. One of my other hobbies is verry similar and a few years back all the larger systems i was involved in were bemoaning the lack of fresh blood coming into the systems as veterans aged out and generally drifted away leaving significantly less players at big events (Though arguably at smaller ones). This situation is about the same at some of the legacy systems but newer ones arose with excellent marketing and use of social media and influencers, only to pull in record numbers of new players of all ages even despite the covid lockdowns and mayhem.

Get the word out, especially in places people who dont already play the game frequent, and let them investigate privately at their own speed. Someone might be too anxious to walk into a strange shop but spend hours poring over youtube videos or instagrams!

People might want to investigate how teenage players broadly interact with the hobby or gaming, because a lot of "obvious" assumptions are wrong :D They love layers of rules to dig into (more than most older folk actually) and are perfectly capable of doing big or long projects just as they are capable of flitting between ideas and looking to find their feet.

[twiglets]

7 hours ago, Noserenda said:

People might want to investigate how teenage players broadly interact with the hobby or gaming, because a lot of "obvious" assumptions are wrong :D They love layers of rules to dig into (more than most older folk actually) and are perfectly capable of doing big or long projects just as they are capable of flitting between ideas and looking to find their feet.

There's definitely an image where younger people are supposed to have shorter attention spans, prefer digital only, and not want physical slow games anymore.

But younger people are also the ones who drove the board game boom and the explosion in dungeons and dragons popularity, probably a bunch of other physical games too.

[Redcomet]

1 hour ago, twiglets said:

There's definitely an image where younger people are supposed to have shorter attention spans, prefer digital only, and not want physical slow games anymore.

But younger people are also the ones who drove the board game boom and the explosion in dungeons and dragons popularity, probably a bunch of other physical games too.

Modern board games are a lot quicker to play than old ones though. Unless you go for the massive games. 

[Cyrox]

I see Blood Bowl mentioned earlier - my boy turned 7 in April and he's started to show a slight interest in my minis when I'm working on them, and when i tried to explain the 40k universe I saw his eyes glaze over and he started talking about food, but then when i mentioned Blood Bowl, and made it comical with much reference to smashing and bashing the other team, he thought it was great and wants to play!

He also likes the look of Space Hulk

 

As for the original topic, good video, i do like TTM. His stuff is easy watching for the most part

 

 

Edited August 1, 2022 by Cyrox
spell fail

[Slave to Darkness]

12 hours ago, Captain Idaho said:

Good idea. CoD would be a great way to harken back to their interests. 

Harken... We wont mention him, with his fancy jump pack and poopy looking spear... 

[spafe]

On 8/1/2022 at 11:13 AM, Cyrox said:

He also likes the look of Space Hulk

I was gonna suggest this, its a great game to get younger players into. Or necromunda where you limit the stuff and play 'half the rules', in a very narrative fashion.

I've managed to get my godson who's 11 into space hulk and he's proper hooked now, after just one afternoon. Dont get my wrong, part of it was novelty of playing with me, not sure if his dad would have had the same success, and part of it was the cool termies shooting aliens that was 'like the video games'. But since then he's asked if we can play it every time ive seen him in the last 3 months.

[ThePenitentOne]

I don't think of myself as an abnormally intelligent person, and I never have...

I played my first game of AD&D in grade 3, which would have put me at 8 or 9 years old (I think 9, because if I remember correctly, that game happened in the spring). I was GMing AD&D for adults by the time I was 10.

I think this formative time set a lot of my preferences in gaming. I didn't get into 40k until high school, and by then I was already a certified role-player, having dabbled in Mech Warrior, Cyberpunk, Shadowrun and World of Darkness in addition to D&D. And in those days, RPG rules weren't afraid to be EXPANSIVE, detailed and complex. 5th edition D&D really doesn't cut it for me- the skill system is so basic it might as well not exist.

This is why I like complexity in my games. I learned it early, and I came to expect it. It's why I love the layered rules of 9th and the book-keeping of Crusade. It's why I have a hard time relating to folks who see many of the options that exist in 9th as bloat.

I tend to assume that most players who do see 9th's bloat as a problem are younger than I am, or that they don't come from a strong tradition of pen and paper RPG's. That isn't always fair to those posters of course- a good many of them are of a similar age, and a handful are older. Perhaps they started later, or perhaps they didn't go as deep into some of the older versions of RPG's as I did- but it isn't always age that is the determining factor.

[MARK0SIAN]

Younger kids definitely have a lot of low effort activities vying for their attention these days but I don’t think it’s fair to land it all on them. I’m entering middle age now and I honestly don’t think I’d be willing to put in the effort needed to learn this game now if I’d never played 40K before, it’s just too much. As soon as someone told me I’d need to download several updates to the core rule book and the codexes themselves plus the points update and the balance dataslate then manually cross reference it all I’d just switch off. And that’s  before you even get into how complex the actual game has become. 

Then on top of those things you’ve got the cost and the time investment and it becomes a hard sell to anyone, not just younger players.

[Slave to Darkness]

5 hours ago, MARK0SIAN said:

 

Then on top of those things you’ve got the cost and the time investment and it becomes a hard sell to anyone, not just younger players.

Hard to get new blood as well when parents buy everything, hell even back in my day my stepdad said the 40k compendium was too much as £12 quid... 'Supplemental rules?!?! They charge this much for something you cant even use without a more expensive book?!?!' 

[MegaVolt87]

On 8/3/2022 at 1:31 AM, MARK0SIAN said:

Younger kids definitely have a lot of low effort activities vying for their attention these days but I don’t think it’s fair to land it all on them. I’m entering middle age now and I honestly don’t think I’d be willing to put in the effort needed to learn this game now if I’d never played 40K before, it’s just too much. As soon as someone told me I’d need to download several updates to the core rule book and the codexes themselves plus the points update and the balance dataslate then manually cross reference it all I’d just switch off. And that’s  before you even get into how complex the actual game has become. 

Then on top of those things you’ve got the cost and the time investment and it becomes a hard sell to anyone, not just younger players.

 

Its quite a black mark to the GW hobby certainly. Younger people like apps, its too much of an ask for them to buy into GW's beloved dead tree model. Even the new HH main rulebooks have errors between the box prints and the stand alone. Thats not an issue when you can change the content quickly electronically. GW needs a strong videogame presence, that way it can feed people into 30k/40k. TWW has gotten many people into AoS + waiting for the old world setting. Older people have less time to grow the community and GW has priced out the Timmy's with the state of the pricing model GW has at the moment. I think GW is fighting hard now to retain the old vets to stick with them for tabletop and so they should be. GW really needs to open the chequebook and stop with the behind the lounge lose change funding to make premium content, the cheap animation is hurting their brand and IP.  

[twiglets]

1 hour ago, MegaVolt87 said:

GW needs a strong videogame presence, that way it can feed people into 30k/40k. TWW has gotten many people into AoS + waiting for the old world setting.

It's done a bit for AoS, but AoS Realllly needs it's own Dawn of War/Total War moment to truly flourish. Apparently frontier are making an AoS RTS that is supposed to come out late next year, and Nexon have a license and are probably making what sounds like a Genshin Impact style game for pc/console/phone. I guess we will see how that goes, maybe it will be the moment AoS breaks out and catches up some of the ground with 40k.

1 hour ago, MegaVolt87 said:

d GW has priced out the Timmy's with the state of the pricing model GW has at the moment.

Naw, Warhammer has always been a middle class hobby. If you look at modern pricing lists and compare them to pricing lists in the 90s and account for inflation then the average model price is about the same. The variation in price is what trips people up because one price being up or down doesnt mean the average has changed. Some models are cheaper than they were in the 90s, and some are more expensive. That variation existed in the 90s too, I've heard it's because they run a fixed cost pricing structure and they price by demand and sales and projections

1 hour ago, MegaVolt87 said:

I think GW is fighting hard now to retain the old vets to stick with them for tabletop and so they should be. GW really needs to open the chequebook and stop with the behind the lounge lose change funding to make premium content, the cheap animation is hurting their brand and IP.  

If you mean Warhammer plus, yeah maybe, but then that might be in the pipeline. I kinda suspect the biggest problem they are having right now isn't funding but that animation is taking way longer to create than they expected and is over running all their deadlines or running into other problems like russia or the lockdowns in china. 

As a company brand new to animation they did kinda go all in head first managing, writing, and voice acting for a dozen animated shows at once, which is kinda nuts. 

Outside of W+ I just hope Eisenhorn is as good as The Expanse and doesnt get Halo-ised

Edited August 8, 2022 by twiglets