Rad Grenades + Power Mauls - usability?

[tinpact]

As I understand it, without any other modifiers, power mauls are just slightly worse than power swords versus marines. However, they're useful against MCs, which will probably show up once Mechanicum and Ruinstorm Daemons get their lists.

Rad Grenades drop T4 to T3, so I had the idea to set a unit up with rad grenades and power mauls to be able to threaten MCs and still be solid in games without them - however, it looks like Forge Lords don't get rad grenades anymore, and obviously Moritats have Bitter Duty.

A 10x unit of destroyers with 3 power mauls is 230pts (although you probably want a nuncio-vox and artificer armor too) compared to 165pts for 10 assault marines with power axes (or 230 for 15) or 140 for 5 veterans with power weapons (although they have to be on foot or in a vehicle), or 150-200 points for Tartaros terminators with power weapons and with power fists. This doesn't seem too bad - 7 S6 attacks at initiative that can target a range of units is nice.

Veterans or terminators are ideal targets since they can take cheap power weapons, but it seems like that might have been purposefully removed. It looks like Farith Redloss can do it for Dark Angels and Typhon for Death Guard, but they both cost almost as much as a second unit.

Barring all that, you can always take a cheap destroyer unit and charge it and your power weapon unit at the same unit - Dawnbreakers with spears seem like a good candidate for this since they have WS5 and Rending, so with ID you're basically doubling their wound output versus 2W models.

My primary concern is that even with ID, WS4 destroyers just won't cut it against terminators (WS4 2+) and maybe veterans (WS5 3+). Are there better S6 weapons? How much is this worth investing in versus just taking PF/TH terminators?

[xxxjtmxxx]

death guard have a rite where u can give every unit rad grenades for 10 points. maybe this is for you

[Magos Kasen]

Funnily enough just last night I was looking into the idea of a list built around Death Guard veteran squads with maces and rad grenades. It's very cool, but not super strong I don't think. The issue is that the maces will instant death most marines, but at AP3, how many multiwound 3+ save units are you facing? It will help mulch units with FnP and such, but it just doesn't do a whole lot against the main multiwound infantry you see - terminators will pretty comfortably mulch your unit, for the loss of just a couple models. 

Still very cool though, I plan on adding a small allied detachment to my Iron Warriors probably. 

[Canadian_F_H]

I plan to run destroyers with power mauls.  Instant death against marines is very useful against veterans and all those heart of the legion units near objectives with an apothecary.

Cannot take FNP saves against ID wounds.  Destroyers with power mauls will be extremely good at clearing most line units off objectives.

I think Rad missiles and Rad grenades stack because their rules are different (radphage doesn't stack with radphage, but Rad grenades don't have the radphage rule)  So for hunting down big nasty models they can potentially net -2 toughness as well. Unless I missed something, that means contemptors reduced to T5, and Leviathans to T6.

Of course Rad missiles have fleshbane so you must reroll successful to wound rolls against dreadnought, but that's still a 2+ to wound. And if you bring things into that melee with more punch, such as a Destroyer sgt with a thunderhammer or their meltabombs. then you have a 2+ to wound roll against all dreadnoughts.

Edited August 2, 2022 by Canadian_F_H

[Fallen11]

So you would waste that unit shooting on dreadnoughts/levi when they have 2+ save vs rad missle, then have 2+ save in cc. It seems extremly poor use of unit and like giving free points to the enemy.

[Magos Kasen]

I can confirm, rad missiles against dreads are basically pointless. I spent most of a game hammering one (no other good targets after I nuked most of his infantry turn 1) with a Destroyer squad and did nothing. Ended up killing the dread with shrapnel bolt pistols of all things. 

[Canadian_F_H]

Nah.  My destroyers are going after power armoured line units which will have no save,  wound on 2+, and lose fnp due to instant death.

Just how the unit might deal with dreads if they need to.   And why would a 2+ save matter when I was talking about thunder hammers and melta bombs at that point? 

[Mandragola]

I think I prefer lightning claws to power mauls. They're more expensive of course but shred and rending is a great combo, threatening anything with a toughness value. The Raven's Talons my RGs can take (rending on a 5+) are really scary.

The power maul combo is decent but you obviously struggle if you meet 2+ saves. I think it works brilliantly in the right situation but not at all well otherwise. I prefer units I can use against a wider range of enemies, even if that slightly reduces their effectiveness in a perfect situation. I would tend to give a Librarian a staff though, so he can batter vehicles at S12.

[Canadian_F_H]

Yeah.  I was thinking about giving the Sgt of the destroyers a thunderhammer.  Expensive,  but with Rad grenades and S9 vs dreads/vehicles/automata/buildings from LA(IW) He will wound Leviathans on a 2+. And he will still ID out just about everything he needs to, and be able to thwack terminators and artificer armored things. 

But without the hammer, they can still fight dreads and vehicles with meltabombs anyways.  The hammer would just be incase of Terminators etc.  I have a lot of other things around to deal with those...

[jaxom]

6 hours ago, Mandragola said:

I think I prefer lightning claws to power mauls. They're more expensive of course but shred and rending is a great combo, threatening anything with a toughness value. The Raven's Talons my RGs can take (rending on a 5+) are really scary.

The power maul combo is decent but you obviously struggle if you meet 2+ saves. I think it works brilliantly in the right situation but not at all well otherwise.

I hadn't thought about lightning claws and rad-grenades, but that does seem like a good combination.

I think power mauls and rad-grenades are for dealing with Veterans, Sky-Hunters, and Speeders. The first two are T4 2W, and Speeders are either T5 (Proteus) or T6 (Javelin). You're not going to ID them, but bringing them down to T4 or T5 then hitting them with a power maul and the rest of a squad is probably more efficient than hitting them with two ranged special weapons and bolter shots or an actual heavy weapons squad. Plus, Assault Destroyers have something approaching the mobility to catch Sky-Hunters and Speeders.

[tinpact]

Death Guard does look like the best candidate for an economic unit, I think. To that end, heavy chainswords are 2ppm and you can take them on an entire assault/despoiler squad (although you lose out on AP and the bonus attack, they're +2S and have shred).

[Misterduch]

It may be that I am rather new to the system etc, but aren't power mauls on marines pretty great vs other regular marines?

They wound T4 on 2's ( Power swords on 4's ) and AP3 is perfect for dealing with non terminator/artificer bodies.

Rending 6+ can help with higher T stuff you couldn't wound otherwise or 2+ saves, but I feel like there are better tools for that.

I know I was planning on running a 20 man assault squad with 5 mauls in it

 

[LameBeard]

Mauls were AP4 in the last edition - are they now AP3?

[Khern]

16 minutes ago, LameBeard said:

Mauls were AP4 in the last edition - are they now AP3?

Yes. F+2 PA3.

[Misterduch]

2 hours ago, LameBeard said:

Mauls were AP4 in the last edition - are they now AP3?

All power weapons besides the power axe are AP3.

[Jimm]

Bit late to this thread but rad grenades don't alter the instant death threshold so S6 doesn't ID units that would normally be T4. 

[Aeternus]

1 hour ago, Jimm said:

Bit late to this thread but rad grenades don't alter the instant death threshold so S6 doesn't ID units that would normally be T4. 

Rad grenades explicitly do alter the ID threshold, while they're in effect.

I'm planning on trying out an evolution of the power maul + rad tactic at some point but with chainglaives, since they have S+2 and breaching(6+) to hopefully help get around 2+ saves a bit, but aye the issue otherwise is, iirc, that there's only one generic multi-wound 3+ save unit out there - veterans. 

Edited September 21, 2022 by Aeternus