Should there be two tank officers?

[Inquisitor_Lensoven]

A company and a platoon commander respectively.

it seems weird that all tank commanders are just magically all on the same level.

the company level could be an HQ that orders all non-LOW vehicles and platoon level could be an elite who orders only vehicles of the same type.(therefore not necessarily restricting this to a leman Russ, but possibly a chimera, or taurox, or sentinel, etc.)

The platoon level could add +1 BS +1Ld and +1W to the profile of whatever vehicle they’re in.

[Inquisitor_Lensoven]

Make both essentially an upgrade to any guard vehicle.

company-+1BS +1Ld +2W orders all guard vehicles HQ

platoon-+1BS +Ld +1W orders vehicles of the same type elite 

limit 1 each per detachment, does not count towards rule of three.

Edited August 8, 2022 by Inquisitor_Lensoven

[hardcore1six]

Or if you take them in a squadron one is the "command tank" and can only order units in that squadron?

Saves us choking up the elite choices even further.

[Inquisitor_Lensoven]

5 hours ago, hardcore1six said:

Or if you take them in a squadron one is the "command tank" and can only order units in that squadron?

Saves us choking up the elite choices even further.

Eh, elites might be kinda busy, but most of them aren’t that viable.

move normal commissars back to hq then, and remove the elites that have basically never been good, or taken in armies regularly.

[Shamansky]

making additional Elite choice won't help those less 'viable' options become more attractive. Removing options is stupid way of improving Guard. I used to love this army for variety of playable options, and i have not played a single game since TC+manticore meta was presented, beacause it is stupidly boring unimaginative dullness bordering the brain dead choice of action, and taking something different is asking for defeat.

Adding comissars to HQ will make what? A useless HQ choice? They are not even Officers.

[Inquisitor_Lensoven]

2 hours ago, Shamansky said:

making additional Elite choice won't help those less 'viable' options become more attractive. Removing options is stupid way of improving Guard. I used to love this army for variety of playable options, and i have not played a single game since TC+manticore meta was presented, beacause it is stupidly boring unimaginative dullness bordering the brain dead choice of action, and taking something different is asking for defeat.

Adding comissars to HQ will make what? A useless HQ choice? They are not even Officers.

Some of those options just aren’t taken and never have been afaik, and many just don’t really mesh with the rest of the army, and some can be combined.

bullgryn/ogryn can be combined.

crusaders should be removed and given either to SoB, or moved to agents

commissars moved to HQ

just cut down the clutter very quickly and easily.

[Emperor Ming]

Yeah crusaders need to go, they make no sense whatsoever

 

 

[OldWherewolf]

I like this.  Platoons should have Lieutenants as an OFFICER (not CHARACTER) to give Orders & RR1sTW.  Tank commanders should move down into the Platoons, but there should be an option for 1 Tank Company Captain with a RR1sTH aura

In general, I don't think the Warlord should be giving individual units orders.  They should be directing the battle, and trusting their subordinates to get the job done.

Something like "You may take 1 CAPTAIN unit per detachment",  then allow up to 1 Captain to be upgraded to the Warlord with something like "As long as the Warlord is not within Engagement Range of an Enemy Unit": 

• Captain (e.g. Company Commander/Tank Captain) has RR1sTH aura, and this is the only option for a Combat Patrol detachment
• If you take a Battalion/Vanguard/Outrider/etc.  you can upgrade the Captain to a Major  to pick an Objective Marker and RR1sTH against units within 3" of that marker
• If you take a Brigade or multiple detachments you can upgrade the Captain to a Colonel/Commander who can pick a spot on the table an RR1sTH within 4" of that spot.

I still like leaving Commissars in Elites, but there has to be a real benefit to them, same as priests.  I would leave the Lord Commissar as the HQ slot, but give the LC something around troop discipline, rather than directing the battle.  What about Ld9 on a regular Commisar, Ld10 on the Lord Commisar, and units within 6" (18" with a Vox Caster) get +1 to combat attrition modifiers.  Or maybe a free "Get back in the fight", or units can even fall back even if the enemy has abilities that prevent falling back (but take d3 MW for doing so).

[SteveAntilles]

Back in the old Armored Company lists from Imperial Armour, you had to take one Elite Platoon Commander for every two normal Russes you had in troops. Elite Russ commanders would be awesome again.

[Inquisitor_Lensoven]

3 hours ago, Brainpsyk said:

I like this.  Platoons should have Lieutenants as an OFFICER (not CHARACTER) to give Orders & RR1sTW.  Tank commanders should move down into the Platoons, but there should be an option for 1 Tank Company Captain with a RR1sTH aura

In general, I don't think the Warlord should be giving individual units orders.  They should be directing the battle, and trusting their subordinates to get the job done.

Something like "You may take 1 CAPTAIN unit per detachment",  then allow up to 1 Captain to be upgraded to the Warlord with something like "As long as the Warlord is not within Engagement Range of an Enemy Unit": 

• Captain (e.g. Company Commander/Tank Captain) has RR1sTH aura, and this is the only option for a Combat Patrol detachment
• If you take a Battalion/Vanguard/Outrider/etc.  you can upgrade the Captain to a Major  to pick an Objective Marker and RR1sTH against units within 3" of that marker
• If you take a Brigade or multiple detachments you can upgrade the Captain to a Colonel/Commander who can pick a spot on the table an RR1sTH within 4" of that spot.

I still like leaving Commissars in Elites, but there has to be a real benefit to them, same as priests.  I would leave the Lord Commissar as the HQ slot, but give the LC something around troop discipline, rather than directing the battle.  What about Ld9 on a regular Commisar, Ld10 on the Lord Commisar, and units within 6" (18" with a Vox Caster) get +1 to combat attrition modifiers.  Or maybe a free "Get back in the fight", or units can even fall back even if the enemy has abilities that prevent falling back (but take d3 MW for doing so).

Nah, no more rerolls, they add too much time to the game.

 

also voxcasters having a 18” range is stupid. Any unit with a vox on the table should be able to benefit.

Edited August 8, 2022 by Inquisitor_Lensoven

[Shamansky]

13 hours ago, Inquisitor_Lensoven said:

Some of those options just aren’t taken and never have been afaik, and many just don’t really mesh with the rest of the army, and some can be combined.

bullgryn/ogryn can be combined.

crusaders should be removed and given either to SoB, or moved to agents

commissars moved to HQ

just cut down the clutter very quickly and easily.

Ah, yes, crusaders. They were always the strange one. And do not really belong to the Guard.  But i i'd like, for example, Wyrdvane psykers and Special weapon squads to come back to play.  To cut the numbers Command squads should become Officer's upgrade not taking any slot and Veterans should become Troops again.

The junior tank commander might be a thing in all-armour formations, like SteveAntilles mentioned Armored Company. Otherwise that would be another semi-useful Elite choice.

Still don't see any reason for commissars to become HQ. They are normally not even a part of command structure lorewise, so i think Lord Commissars are enough to represent those exceptional commisars in HQ.

9 hours ago, Inquisitor_Lensoven said:

also voxcasters having a 18” range is stupid. Any unit with a vox on the table should be able to benefit.

That's absolutely true. And all vehicles should be counted as having vox.

[hardcore1six]

17 hours ago, Brainpsyk said:

I like this.  Platoons should have Lieutenants as an OFFICER (not CHARACTER) to give Orders & RR1sTW.  Tank commanders should move down into the Platoons, but there should be an option for 1 Tank Company Captain with a RR1sTH aura

In general, I don't think the Warlord should be giving individual units orders.  They should be directing the battle, and trusting their subordinates to get the job done.

Something like "You may take 1 CAPTAIN unit per detachment",  then allow up to 1 Captain to be upgraded to the Warlord with something like "As long as the Warlord is not within Engagement Range of an Enemy Unit": 

• Captain (e.g. Company Commander/Tank Captain) has RR1sTH aura, and this is the only option for a Combat Patrol detachment
• If you take a Battalion/Vanguard/Outrider/etc.  you can upgrade the Captain to a Major  to pick an Objective Marker and RR1sTH against units within 3" of that marker
• If you take a Brigade or multiple detachments you can upgrade the Captain to a Colonel/Commander who can pick a spot on the table an RR1sTH within 4" of that spot.

I still like leaving Commissars in Elites, but there has to be a real benefit to them, same as priests.  I would leave the Lord Commissar as the HQ slot, but give the LC something around troop discipline, rather than directing the battle.  What about Ld9 on a regular Commisar, Ld10 on the Lord Commisar, and units within 6" (18" with a Vox Caster) get +1 to combat attrition modifiers.  Or maybe a free "Get back in the fight", or units can even fall back even if the enemy has abilities that prevent falling back (but take d3 MW for doing so).

Org structure within the org structure should easily come back. An infantry Platoon for 1 x HQ, 2 x Troop slots (or armour for, 1 x HQ and 2 x HS).

Priests, Commissars, Master of Ordinance, Fleet Officers etc should be 0-5 and don't take up force org slots; they'd have to be listed as Elite. They also shouldn't be characters.

Missionaries and Lord Commissars should be HQ and characters though. The current Commissar rules are terrible at actually keeping your models on the table. Ld 9 aura and an auto-pass on D3 slain guardsman as an alternative to taking a morale test.

[Inquisitor_Lensoven]

9 hours ago, Shamansky said:

Ah, yes, crusaders. They were always the strange one. And do not really belong to the Guard.  But i i'd like, for example, Wyrdvane psykers and Special weapon squads to come back to play.  To cut the numbers Command squads should become Officer's upgrade not taking any slot and Veterans should become Troops again.

The junior tank commander might be a thing in all-armour formations, like SteveAntilles mentioned Armored Company. Otherwise that would be another semi-useful Elite choice.

Still don't see any reason for commissars to become HQ. They are normally not even a part of command structure lorewise, so i think Lord Commissars are enough to represent those exceptional commisars in HQ.

That's absolutely true. And all vehicles should be counted as having vox.

They used to be HQ iirc.

lord commissar is a fairly new thing. 5th edition or later I think.

[OldWherewolf]

18 hours ago, Inquisitor_Lensoven said:

Nah, no more rerolls, they add too much time to the game.

 

also voxcasters having a 18” range is stupid. Any unit with a vox on the table should be able to benefit.

To a certain extent, I agree on the re-rolls, but in 9th they're a core part of the game, and one of the things that's holding Guard back is the lack thereof.  Any competitive player looks for some sort of consistency, so without the re-rolls, Guard would either be under-powered or over-powered from 4+ being so swingy. 

Vox Casters are more akin to a bullhorn than a radio.   All Guard vehicles & even infantry helmets have radios built in, same for Space Marine helmets.  But that isn't represented in-game.  That's where the 6" auras and 18" Vox Casters comes in.  It's not representing actual distance, but certain units being too far away to command effectively simply because the commander can't see the details of what's happening.

 

4 hours ago, hardcore1six said:

 Ld 9 aura and an auto-pass on D3 slain guardsman as an alternative to taking a morale test.

Now THAT is interesting!  Guard can still fail morale, but after rolling Combat Attrition we can keep D3 of those failed models.  It's not OP in any way, but a unique and cool buff. 

[Inquisitor_Lensoven]

12 hours ago, Brainpsyk said:

To a certain extent, I agree on the re-rolls, but in 9th they're a core part of the game, and one of the things that's holding Guard back is the lack thereof.  Any competitive player looks for some sort of consistency, so without the re-rolls, Guard would either be under-powered or over-powered from 4+ being so swingy. 

Vox Casters are more akin to a bullhorn than a radio.   All Guard vehicles & even infantry helmets have radios built in, same for Space Marine helmets.  But that isn't represented in-game.  That's where the 6" auras and 18" Vox Casters comes in.  It's not representing actual distance, but certain units being too far away to command effectively simply because the commander can't see the details of what's happening.

 

Now THAT is interesting!  Guard can still fail morale, but after rolling Combat Attrition we can keep D3 of those failed models.  It's not OP in any way, but a unique and cool buff. 

Voxcasters are not equivalent to bullhorns, and radios on individual guardsmen is hit or miss.

Officers can give orders via radio just fine. Again iirc voxcasters gave the benefit from officers to all units on the board in the past.

 

as for the rerolls, I am desperately hoping that they are largely removed from the game in 10th. Imagine how many rerolls you could potentially have from an army with 3 punishers. A 2000 point game really shouldn’t take up your whole morning/afternoon/evening/night. Especially if they want to keep adults engaged with the hobby.

of the games I’ve played since coming back, either i or my opponent had to cut it short because we had stuff to do, and 3 hours of playing left us feeling plenty satisfied.

 

16 hours ago, hardcore1six said:

Org structure within the org structure should easily come back. An infantry Platoon for 1 x HQ, 2 x Troop slots (or armour for, 1 x HQ and 2 x HS).

Priests, Commissars, Master of Ordinance, Fleet Officers etc should be 0-5 and don't take up force org slots; they'd have to be listed as Elite. They also shouldn't be characters.

Missionaries and Lord Commissars should be HQ and characters though. The current Commissar rules are terrible at actually keeping your models on the table. Ld 9 aura and an auto-pass on D3 slain guardsman as an alternative to taking a morale test.

God no stop this.

requiring platoons prices new players out.

you might have plenty of models to have platoons, but a platoon system like the old one could easily force a new player to spend a year or more buying and collecting before having a legal army.

a minimum size army with platoons is something like $300. I did the math (pre-tax) and it’s ridiculously expensive just to meet the minimum requirements.

the detachments are essentially different types of platoons as it is.

stop with this platoon nonsense 

[SteveAntilles]

Platoons should come back, just with more options. 
1-5 Infantry Squads
0-1 Platoon Commander
0-1 Command Squad
0-3 Special Weapon Squads
0-3 Heavy Weapon Squads

With current detachment options, guard need some flexibility and options for more squads.

 

Also if you're worried about price, Guard is not the army for you.

[The Pounder]

Yeah, it should be flexible enough for people to not find it too much as a tax.

I think SteveAntilles is spot on. Using one slot to free up other choices is a good one.

Iirc it’s how things used to be?
 

On the variety of tank Commanders I feel that there should be the equivalent of a “sergeant” leading Russ squadrons.

As well as the current Commander.

I reckon Guard as a whole are lacking aura abilities. I’d like to see that addressed in the new codex.

[Inquisitor_Lensoven]

10 hours ago, SteveAntilles said:

Platoons should come back, just with more options. 
1-5 Infantry Squads
0-1 Platoon Commander
0-1 Command Squad
0-3 Special Weapon Squads
0-3 Heavy Weapon Squads

With current detachment options, guard need some flexibility and options for more squads.

 

Also if you're worried about price, Guard is not the army for you.

I disagree with the last line. 

the same can be said about this game as a whole.

however if you want the faction to keep getting old kits updated and completely new units in the future? Yea? Then you should be concerned about if new players will be able to afford the army. As the game as a whole gets more expensive secondary armies get more unlikely. Meaning the faction will quickly fall behind in sales, and factions that don’t sell well typically don’t get much support.

how are you people building lists where you have a bunch of left over points but not slots?

 

Edited August 10, 2022 by duz_
Keep it civil

[SteveAntilles]

1 hour ago, Inquisitor_Lensoven said:

how are you people building lists where you have a bunch of left over points but not slots?

 

Pure infantry list. Stuck with Double battalions, or two battalions and a patrol. Starting a game with 2-3 command points (no warlord or relics) isn't a great option.

[Inquisitor_Lensoven]

41 minutes ago, SteveAntilles said:

Pure infantry list. Stuck with Double battalions, or two battalions and a patrol. Starting a game with 2-3 command points (no warlord or relics) isn't a great option.

Play the faction as it was clearly intended then?

ive never seen an army picture in a BRB or codex in any edition that didn’t show a mixture of armor and infantry.

[SteveAntilles]

I play Tanith. They're portrayed as an exclusively light infantry regiment, with no vehicles. How dare I try and stick to the fluff.

Regardless, this thread is about tank commanders, and should there be a platoon level version. I think there should, at the platoon level like there used to be an option for.

[Inquisitor_Lensoven]

2 hours ago, SteveAntilles said:

I play Tanith. They're portrayed as an exclusively light infantry regiment, with no vehicles. How dare I try and stick to the fluff.

Regardless, this thread is about tank commanders, and should there be a platoon level version. I think there should, at the platoon level like there used to be an option for.

Yet they’re almost always portrayed as having armored support.

there are very few GG books that have the ghosts operating completely alone. Either armored, artillery or some form of heavy infantry (scions) are working in support of them.

Edited August 9, 2022 by Inquisitor_Lensoven

[duz_]

As Steve has pointed out this thread has digressed significantly from the OT. 

You all know the drill if it can't get back on topic were done here and keep things civil. 

[Harrowmaster]

A squadron commander upgrade that works for other units and has a limit may work (One per three squads or something similar but can issue orders to those outside it's own squadron). That way we get a lower level officer but without worrying about trying to cram in another elites slot or being able to take tanks there (which may cause backlash). 

[hardcore1six]

I'd add:
Squadron Command If this unit is taken as a squadron, one model may be upgraded to Squadron Command and gains the Voice of Command ability. This ability can only be used on models from the unit's squadron.

I would also allow Voice of Command orders to 'cascade' like they do for infantry - maybe even something like "If an order is given to a vehicle in a squadron, all units in that squadron benefit from the order on a roll of a 2+ per vehicle". It would potentially be a huge buff, and would encourage players to actually take vehicle squadrons.

As with all buffs there would have to be a negative, so maybe the order only works on a 2+ for each vehicle?