Are Leviathans worth it?

[Marshal Mittens]

Contemptors are SO much cheaper, and deliver almost the same power, and do not take up a HS slot. Are Leviathans worth if when compared to Contemptors?

[bushman101]

In my experience yes.

Part of the reason to take them IS because they use a different Force Org slot. Gives you flexibility to take both, upgrade or downgrade. 

Also, my Leviathan tends to last all game, where my Contemptors can die here and there.

I'd also say the different loadouts between the Contemptor and Leviathan is worth considering. The Contemptor can play the ranged game, where the Leviathan can get up close and tank shots

[Brofist]

I rate the contemptor higher than the Leviathan, personally. That brutal 3 stock power fist has a lot to do with it.

Grav flux also got crippled into the ground, and no ability to run, so you've got even less viable Leviathan builds. Though the phex launcher can now be reused which was nice to see.

Edited August 12, 2022 by Brofist

[SkimaskMohawk]

Currently, against only marines? The contemptor basically does the same job, and without a pod, the leviathan is pretty slow.

But uh...what if your opponent gets sick of your contemptor and takes a biomancy librarian; suddenly can't instant kill terminators (and actually lose them matchup depending on the weapon). What if they're word bearers and use gal Vorbak?What's going to happen when the banana boys are all toughness 5? Or mechanicum with thallax and myrmidons?

The leviathan is going to get a lot of value in the near future. Its also better at fighting other dreads because of the Toughness 8, bonus wound, and raw higher attack value.

 

[arnesh88]

I see it as similar to a Sicaran vs Predator: The cheaper option is better for it's points, but as your building your list, and you don't have enough room for 2 of the cheaper option but you really want something like it, then the more expensive option is worth adding. Plus, the leviathan is just a really good bully/distraction-carnifex.

[Marshal Mittens]

2 hours ago, arnesh88 said:

I see it as similar to a Sicaran vs Predator: The cheaper option is better for it's points, but as your building your list, and you don't have enough room for 2 of the cheaper option but you really want something like it, then the more expensive option is worth adding. Plus, the leviathan is just a really good bully/distraction-carnifex.

Yeah, 115pts for the predator Autocannon and Las sponsons is dead cheap for what you get. A squadron of 4 costs as much as 2 Sicarans with Las sponsons, roughly, and seems to have a lot more fire power.

[arnesh88]

1 hour ago, Marshall Mittens said:

Yeah, 115pts for the predator Autocannon and Las sponsons is dead cheap for what you get. A squadron of 4 costs as much as 2 Sicarans with Las sponsons, roughly, and seems to have a lot more fire power.

Are we asking the question of "are they worth it" or "are they optimal"? "Worth it" means that they will do fine, but not necessarily the best choice. But if the question is "are they optimal?", then yeah, the Contemptors are the optimal choice. Same with predators. Original question was "Are Leviathans worth it?" From community discussions I've seen and personal experience, they are.

[Icosiel]

As Word Bearers, I've found that my Elites are so crowded. It's nice to be able to throw a Dread in a Heavy Support slot instead.

[Marshal Loss]

My melee Levi has been a bit hit and miss so far, but I think that's more a reflection of my list than it is of the unit not being worth it. Contemptors are definitely the optimal pick for now as outlined above though.

[SmorcInc]

Storm cannons are weirdly good at killing everything with their high shot count, rending 5, and sunder.

[Marshal Mittens]

Double Storm cannon (were they once called butcher cannons or is my memory wrong) seems like a very strong loud out, to be sure. I think I will do some double storm cannon ones, and some Claw + melta ones. 

[Slips]

Theyre only called butcher cannons in 40k for chaos.

[Misterduch]

15 minutes ago, Marshall Mittens said:

Double Storm cannon (were they once called butcher cannons or is my memory wrong) seems like a very strong loud out, to be sure. I think I will do some double storm cannon ones, and some Claw + melta ones. 

I feel like double gun loadouts for both the contemptor and the leviathan are a trap.

If you only need ranged damage output, you can get 2 predators with any loadout and still be cheaper off.

What dreadnoughts excel at imo, is their flexibility and ability to perform well in melee.

 

 

Edited August 16, 2022 by Misterduch

[Gattopardo]

Not sure about that.....gun and fist is definitely the best all round option for Contemptors (and probably Leviathans), as it gives you a durable, mobile (well the Contemptor is anyway) platform that can threaten most targets in most situations. But dual gun builds also work. A dual lascannon Contemptor with a helical targeting array is a good pick I think. So is a Deredeo. While it might be true that you can get more firepower from the equivalent points in Predators, those tanks will probably die more quickly and will also suffer from the vehicle damage chart, which Dreadnoughts obviously don't. Plus they can intercept with their big guns, which is the tanks can't.

[SkimaskMohawk]

Double storms average 3.3 rends and 5 succesful wounds per volley against t5 or less. That's like, 5 power armour, 1 cataphractii, and 1 Proteus speeder worth of failed saves. Against contemptors, you average 2.17 unsaved wounds.

Its a lot better against vehicles, where you average 7.47 hull points against av 11, 5.38 against av 12-13, 3.09 against av 14, and 1.7 against flare shielded 14. 

But, for a 300 point shooting platform, it definitely misses the mark of "good at killing everything" and generically "strong loadout". They're good against their target profile and can be used against basic infantry with mild success.

[Marshal Mittens]

I think double storm cannons, double lascannons, or double conversion beamer are the only double gun options I would consider, as all of them want to stay ranged anyway. Preferably long ranged. I personally feel Claw + Melta is largely the best option for both, as it gives you a deadly gun and a good melee punch. 

[Dark Legionnare]

The "aggro" Leviathan (IE, w/claw, drill, phosphex, and volkites in a pod) still has lots of merit, I feel.  He's done great work across the two games I've used him. Arguably, he gains more from the dread changes that the contemptor, to me.  The Levi always hurt a lot more getting popped by a lucky AP2 explodes.  And he's priced basically the same for said Aggro loadout as he was in 1.0

He can absolutely house anything in melee, and has enough firepower to keep nearby forces on their toes while he goes about that end goal of "Get in melee".

Can pivot that shooting into multi-charges if need be and you're out of melta 2D6 range, or if you just want to warcrimes some lads while going after a juicy tank. IE, shoot nearby inf squad, double charge them and a juicy vehicle near them to have your cake and eat it too.

Just watch out for the hammer spam!

[bushman101]

I think the Leviathan is made to get up close. The extra ~100 points you pay over a Contemptor add to survivability (+1 Tough, Wound and Attack). 

It's been my new 'distraction' model since the Javelin changed so much.

This isn't to say the Contemptor isn't good. It more a matter of where you put then in your army.

[Gorgoff]

8 hours ago, Dark Legionnare said:

The "aggro" Leviathan (IE, w/claw, drill, phosphex, and volkites in a pod) still has lots of merit, I feel.  He's done great work across the two games I've used him. Arguably, he gains more from the dread changes that the contemptor, to me.  The Levi always hurt a lot more getting popped by a lucky AP2 explodes.  And he's priced basically the same for said Aggro loadout as he was in 1.0

He can absolutely house anything in melee, and has enough firepower to keep nearby forces on their toes while he goes about that end goal of "Get in melee".

Can pivot that shooting into multi-charges if need be and you're out of melta 2D6 range, or if you just want to warcrimes some lads while going after a juicy tank. IE, shoot nearby inf squad, double charge them and a juicy vehicle near them to have your cake and eat it too.

Just watch out for the hammer spam!

How does one model double charge two units?

[Dont-Be-Haten]

I feel like it largely depends on your army. Iron Warriors or Iron Hands, for example have pretty strong Levis. Are they worth taking over a sicaran, 10 man lascannon HSS, or Kratos?

In armies with restrictions to HS RoW is a Leviathan your "I need this over anything else." If you can answer this confidently then Leviathans are indeed worth it. If you find yourself gravitating to other options more frequently then perhaps not.

Deredeos are your better gun platform. Levis are a good counter to knights, and other dreads and are just about immune to small arms fire. It is important to remember a talon allows for multiple dreads in that single Heavy or Elite slot!

When comparing Contemptors to Levis I do think there can be a place for both, especially in a fury of the ancients army list. However; think about your detachments. Do you have room for the elite slot for a talon? If not, simply ally a talon in through a secondary detachment. RG for example are pressed in both the Elites slot and the Heavy slot with their primary RoW. So you want to look at a secondary detachment where you can. 

Edited August 17, 2022 by Dont-Be-Haten

[SkimaskMohawk]

7 hours ago, Gorgoff said:

How does one model double charge two units?

It can't.

The initial charger has to go into the Primary target, by the normal rules of moving the first model (shortest route possibly into base contact). After that, subsequent models are allowed to go into either primary or secondary targets.

As the initial, and only, charger, the leviathan has to go into the primary, and doesn't have permission to go into either unit like subsequent chargers.

[Stitch5000]

17 hours ago, Dark Legionnare said:

The "aggro" Leviathan (IE, w/claw, drill, phosphex, and volkites in a pod) still has lots of merit, I feel.  He's done great work across the two games I've used him. Arguably, he gains more from the dread changes that the contemptor, to me.  The Levi always hurt a lot more getting popped by a lucky AP2 explodes.  And he's priced basically the same for said Aggro loadout as he was in 1.0

He can absolutely house anything in melee, and has enough firepower to keep nearby forces on their toes while he goes about that end goal of "Get in melee".

Can pivot that shooting into multi-charges if need be and you're out of melta 2D6 range, or if you just want to warcrimes some lads while going after a juicy tank. IE, shoot nearby inf squad, double charge them and a juicy vehicle near them to have your cake and eat it too.

Just watch out for the hammer spam!

This whole comment sounds like you are using the rules from about 4 different editions of the game but not the current one... 

[Dark Legionnare]

 

10 hours ago, Gorgoff said:

How does one model double charge two units?

2 hours ago, SkimaskMohawk said:

It can't.

The initial charger has to go into the Primary target, by the normal rules of moving the first model (shortest route possibly into base contact). After that, subsequent models are allowed to go into either primary or secondary targets.

As the initial, and only, charger, the leviathan has to go into the primary, and doesn't have permission to go into either unit like subsequent chargers.

1 hour ago, Stitch5000 said:

This whole comment sounds like you are using the rules from about 4 different editions of the game but not the current one... 

In this case, was a bit loose with terminology, but meant the 1.0 (7th ed) multi-charge, IE, disordered charge.

IE, moving in a way so the shortest charge-line to inf would also bump against a vehicle near them, shooting at the  inf in shooting phase, but declaring a charge against the inf that were shot at, and their vehicle friend  nearby, IE, primary and secondary targets.

I've not played any 2.0 at my house still, only at a bud's, so have been relying on him combing through his pages to answer if something's still the same as 1.0. He had informed me the multi-charge (ie disordered) was still the same when asked. is that not the case?

Edited August 17, 2022 by Dark Legionnare

[SkimaskMohawk]

5 minutes ago, Dark Legionnare said:

 

In this case, was a bit loose with terminology, but meant the 1.0 (7th ed) multi-charge, IE, disordered charge.

IE, shooting at the  inf in shooting phase, but declaring a charge against the inf that were shot at, and their vehicle friend if he's nearby, IE, primary and secondary targets.

I've not played any 2.0 at my house still, only at a bud's, so have been relying on him combing through his pages to answer if something's still the same as 1.0. He had informed me the multi-charge (ie disordered) was still the same when asked. is that not the case?

Nothing changed in the rules; you were never able to multi-charge with a single model. The initial target (the leviathan) has to go into the primary target (the unit you shot at) by the shortest route and end in base contact. The remaining models (none) can then go into either primary or secondary targets.

In both editions, only "remaining models" had permission to go into the secondary units.

[Stitch5000]

16 minutes ago, Dark Legionnare said:

 

In this case, was a bit loose with terminology, but meant the 1.0 (7th ed) multi-charge, IE, disordered charge.

IE, moving in a way so the shortest charge-line to inf would also bump against a vehicle near them, shooting at the  inf in shooting phase, but declaring a charge against the inf that were shot at, and their vehicle friend  nearby, IE, primary and secondary targets.

I've not played any 2.0 at my house still, only at a bud's, so have been relying on him combing through his pages to answer if something's still the same as 1.0. He had informed me the multi-charge (ie disordered) was still the same when asked. is that not the case?

You'd have to rely on absolutely millimetre-perfect model spacing to manage to get a multicharge with a single model like that... It's not really something you can work towards or game for.