What's Working, What's Not?

[techsoldaten]

I'm off to a slow start with 9ed CSM. Not because of an issue with the Codex, just can't seem to get on the right wavelength.

We're more than a month in. What do you see as the best lists out there? What units are working for you, which ones should be avoided?

 

[Danosborne]

Helbrutes with mark of Tzeentch are excellent for the trolling opportunities! The master of possession is an auto-include in my opinion, regular sorcerers seem a bit redundant now, seeing as you can get the same powers off using legionaries squads now. Also, I’ve had a fair bit of luck with my Forgefiends, especially when coupled up with the master of possession and a warpsmith.

[Cpt.Danjou]

So far I have had two games with the new codex, one game vs Death guard a complete loss, and the other was against Tau and a close win. Both games I played a IW with lots of Mark of Nurgle. Daemon engines seem to work my Maulerfiend and Venomcrawler has not disappointed me, but Havocs are a complete bust. Many people has said Obliterators are a bit lackluster, but I found them doing there job ok. The Predator Annihilator is feeling really good, it was the only thing able to damage Blightlord terminators.

But I feel I need more games to give advice.

[Khornestar]

The “great” list, because using more than one word is too much work. These are the stand-outs for me.

Core-Marked lists, Dark Apostle is an auto-take. His powers can’t be denied, which along with the 2+ provided by his disciples make him simply incredible. Word Bearers have an even better version, with a strat.

Terminators with the black rune are also an auto-take for me. I give mine max flamers. Terminators in general are solid. They always get their full 4 Bolter shots so the humble stat line is boosted by virtue of volume, and adding Veterans of the Long War in the right situation can annihilate something even tougher than what would otherwise be possible. Exploding 6’s for both bolters and close Combat in the right turns help a ton. 2+ save, 3 wounds, AoC, invuln, and ability to deep strike also all contribute to how good they are. Their accursed weapons are really good, and again veterans can help if they’re fighting something tough. Fists are good but I prefer volume. They're still the best carrier of combi-weapons, as far as I can tell. We need the shooting, we really do. A sprinkling of one melta here and there just isn't gonna cut it. A brick of 10 can do something meaningful with them, and 30 points for 4 combis and 2 heavies is the right price. 10 points as on almost everything else that can take a combi is just too much. Those melta blasts will go wide plenty of the time. 5 points to miss is fine, 10 is not. Obviously... dice game, but those shots make a difference a lot of the time. Thankfully, terminators have multiple options to help: CORE re-roll 1's aura from lords/princes, prescience, fury of the chosen or whatever the strat is called that gives them +1 to hit, and there might be another one I'm forgetting.

Discolords are great. Everything about them is great.

Berzerkers are also great. They don’t need double activation to be awesome, and are CORE marked so benefit from the good stuff.

Master of Possession is great, but psychic powers are too unreliable for my taste. Still, he’s great. All his powers are good, and if you get to swing at a psyker with his staff, they will enjoy the perils of the warp. I find these situational things oh so sweet when they pop up.

Daemon Prince is great. Melee blender and psyker, but he’s not super durable. I’m pretty sloppy with his positioning usually, so my own fault when he gets targeted prematurely.

Warp Talons are great.

Cultists are great, with all the fast moving hard hitting threats they hold down what needs holding down, have a tiny footprint so they can hide, and so on. Insane bravery at the end of the opponent’s turn is sometimes a must to keep an objective when they haven’t all died. Their shooting means nothing, but there are those times where there's like, a single guardian on an objective that your bolters failed to kill. You could waste shooting from something else, or dump a storm of autogun bullets into the elf bastard. So I guess that is something. Otherwise they can advance, perform actions, etc. and your killing power isn't really diminished. 

Legionaries can be great, I’ve liked running mine bare bones with the psychic upgrade to take prescience. It has no meaningful keyword restrictions so can target anything in the army. They have almost as many attacks as chosen and terminators, and the champion can take good weapon upgrades. I let the terminators do the bolter-ing with chosen as pot-shot backup, so the legionaries are free to swing their chainswords. They pose a reasonable threat to other infantry. The daemon blade is pricy but damn nice. In the one game I bought the upgrade, it was worth it. I feel the one unit of legionaries with the balefire tome is a must for my army lists. 20 points is steep, but not really when I think of them like a sorcerer with more wounds, attacks, obsec, etc. One could make that another 15 points more expensive to get a god-based power. I go with Delightful Agonies as I've been into the Mark of Slaanesh in my games so far. Tossing this on the black rune terminators in particular is just the greatest, because they're already hard to kill. If I wanted a fighty unit, I would forego the psyker and give them a Mark of Slaanesh and the Icon. The limitation to the first three powers is a shame, but as mentioned Prescience is great, and the other two have their uses. The potential to dish out mortal wounds with the balefire tome is there, but I prefer linking my mortal wounds to things like stratagems and upgrades. Still, smite is there no matter what, and is a useful arrow in the quiver for finishing things off.

Venomcrawlers can be great. Their stats are all fine for their cost, but the psychic buff is pretty clutch if you’re taking multiple psykers. Making powers more reliable is the only way taking psykers is worth it, for me, so venomcrawlers have made the difference for powers going off every game I've used mine.

Other:

I’ve messed with a few other things. Chosen are cool, nothing bad about them, but for me they’re surpassed by terminators. Chosen have the ability to take an icon, which is very good as it’s a rarity in the codex.

Havocs are ok. I used missiles and chainguns in my World Eaters list. CORE helps, and the Khorne dark apostle prayer to put them in wanton destruction is really the combo to use for them. Missiles were meh, chaincannons much better.

The Lord of Skulls is a veritable beast, but I think I'd rather have separate units for the points. I also want to run a brass scorpion in his stead. Almost as good, it seems, but over 100 points cheaper.

Nothing else stands out so far from what I’ve used, playing Word Bearers I think 3 times and World Eaters once. Not a huge sample size but this stuff is straightforward.

Our stratagems are by and large really good. There are some that I'd absolutely never use (anything that targets cultists, probably, though if I used accursed cultists I might feel differently), but that's just how it goes. They can't all be zingers, as they say.

As for not working... I guess the one time I ran a terminator lord with gorefather I wasn't terribly impressed, but it was because I didn't roll any  6's to generate mortal wounds, and that's how it goes. Dice game. Master of Executions, same thing but only because I only ran him in one game, and all he had the chance to do was wipe a couple of guardians off an objective. It mattered, but it wasn't sexy. The rest of the game he was screening my deployment zone and keeping an eye on the cultists holding objectives in case of deep strike assault. Maulerfiend blew up before doing anything but was a good distraction carnifex. 

The "I don't even want to bother" list includes helbrutes, defilers, and pretty much any tank. I am completely turned off by vehicles other than daemon engines, and the warpsmith seems required if you ever do bring something like a predator who wants to sit back and shoot. Anything else will outpace him, much of the time. The helbrute is borderline; I feel his upgrades are too expensive, and none of his guns are all that good. He's good in combat, but he's slow compared to daemon engines. Brutes have cool rules, and I believe a stratagem, and are CORE and can take marks, so there is some play with them, but they just aren't that exciting to me. The exalted champion is also on this list. Re-roll 1's to wound for CORE really is a great aura, but among discolords, dark apostles, masters of possession, and daemon princes, it's already hard to pick. The other options aren't bad, per se, but also don't stand out to me. 

In terms of synergies:

CORE is the most easily utilized. Every unit that has it more or less has a good HQ to pair up with in terms of their roles and abilities. Especially as everything so often turns into a bloodbath in the center of the board, a single HQ can buff 3+ units easily. Those re-rolls, even of 1's, add up and matter a lot. In addition, the Mantle of Traitors allows a lord/prince to snipe this buff out to any CORE unit on the table, which rocks. 

DAEMONKIN lists are another option for list-building, and Master of Possession is an auto-take if that's the style of list one is building. Any daemonkin unit is a great target for any of the Master of Possession's spells. The branch of DAEMONKIN includes DAEMON ENGINES, so other strats and powers and such become available that are specific to them.

Finally, it is about dang time word bearers got good rules. And boy, did they ever. They’ve got the best dark apostles in any legion - and can take the upgrade twice. That’s 2 CP, yes, but ine can be given the epistle of Lorgar to chant 2 prayers per turn, and they can reroll 1’s so the odds of failing are very low. Not sure it’s worth using twice, but taking 2 apostles might be good sometimes. The other can take the inferno time to spit out mortal wounds.

The legion traits are awesome. Rerolling hits on everything frees up our buffing units to do other things. Dark apostles almost never need their reroll hits aura, and warp talons can go off on their own and reroll all hits and all wounds. When targeting a unit with -1 to hit, it’s great to be able to do something about it. Fishing for mortals on the various abilities that trigger on 6’s is also a nice way to make those investments of points and CP more worthwhile, though with my rolling I rarely seem to trigger those. Still, there are many times I end up having more hits than I have attacks, thanks to the legion trait and wanton slaughter. Mortal wound defense is situational, but when it becomes relevant, it’s nice to not just auto-lose wounds and die. 

The stratagems are mostly great. I wouldn’t bother with the one that targets cultists, but the rest of them are useful. Standing a buffing character back up on a 4+ during the opponent’s turn is so good.

I think this codex is a blast to play. It isn't perfect, but I feel they gave us something with power and flavor. I've moved past the things we lost/not included from the prior book. I have more fun just embracing what we have and trying different things out. 

 

 

Edited August 13, 2022 by Khornestar

[DesuVult]

Oblits are a trap a lot of people fell down.

[Dr_Ruminahui]

Can you elaborate?

[Khornestar]

I tried oblits in one game, again not a meaningful sample size but…

They were OK. Their damage output was just OK, as I was shooting the high damage profile and kept rolling 1’s for my shots.

Their defensive stats were what made them shine in that game, combined with a master of possession bringing one back each turn. 
 

I think they’re solid, but on their own with no buffs are not super impressive.

Edited August 13, 2022 by Khornestar

[DesuVult]

12 hours ago, Dr_Ruminahui said:

Can you elaborate?

They don't do much on their own and what they can be counted on do to isn't that worthwhile often.  They don't really score primary or secondary objectives.  Their base durability isn't that impressive in practice and they need support that is often needed elsewhere.  They take up a chunk of points and I feel the CSM codex as it is now encourages you to squeeze whatever you can out of every choice you take.  In listbuilding you are trading out something for them and they can eat a substantial amount of opportunity cost if you invest in supporting them.

[Toldavf]

Only d3 anti tank shots hurts them, had it just been flat 2 or d3 +1 they would of been solid. Also the army they are in, our fire support is limited to heavy support slots, unlike other army's we don't have supporting fast attack or elite slots with cheap meaningful firepower. For the points and slots you pay they have to much weight to carry.

I've found the land raider to be very potent, it is really killy.

Edited August 14, 2022 by Toldavf

[Relic]

I'd be hesitant to input too much at this stage, very much still testing the waters with units. A few general points though - keep in mind I play Iron Warriors so may skew my views. 

• Our secondaries in general aren't great - hard to plan a concrete scoring plan to get you to 35 secondary points per game. Even in games i've won on the field handily, the total points were close to opponents. 

 

• You therefore either have to build a plan to score primaries and a respectable secondary game plan at list design stage, or alternatively look to shutout opponents by wiping their points. 

 

• I'm currently leaning towards the option of going super aggressive - i'm running a rhino rush army with loads of close combat units (Berzerkers, Chosen, Terminators). Most shooting I have ditched. Even as Iron Warriors it was not super impressive by 9th standards. 

 

• You can either invest your limited CP up front to buff datasheets (characters with relics+warlord traits) or spend them to buff units in game (strats). I tend to lean towards the latter as Iron Warriors have great strats, but your mileage may vary by legion. 

 

• I think a lot of our datasheets are viable, but we can't fit everything in as we are an elite army with points to match. So consider how each unit fits into your list carefully and whether your legion makes the most of it. 

 

• Some not obvious fits can be found, for example in true Storm of Iron fashion i;ve found berzerkers weirdly good in Iron Warriors. They don't get the legion trait, but retain the core keyword. So you can use Iron Warriors Strats to make them more durable such as a 5+++ vs mortals,-1 damage in a phase or 1CP to auto-pass morale (and get +1 to hit for the rest of the game if under half strength). The issue with berzerkers is they hit hard, but aren't durable. So a good fit in a legion that can help cover the weakness. 

 

I hope that helps my fellow aspiring lords. 

Edited August 14, 2022 by Relic

[DesuVult]

I have largely the same view Relic.

Cult marines are almost unreasonably good in Iron Warriors at doing their job.  If there was a bit more support for them or what they do expanded it would really push the legion up.  If Iron Warriors could score secondaries we would be a good army.

With the new codex I have not beaten necrons.  I have also not failed to table necrons.  The codex lacks a way to really stop or score secondaries making it pretty legion dependant.  Against armies who like to just come in and kill as well I cannot help but notice the woeful insufficiency in matching that except for legions built to counterplay that like CoB.

[Iron Father Ferrum]

I've also noticed that I get a LOT of mileage out of Berzerkers in my Alpha Legion list.  I've been using them through most of 8th & 9th so the obvious use of Forward Operatives comes as no surprise (though it's not as good now).  But everyone at my LGS knows I use them and are terrified of them, which gives me opportunities for strats like Conceal & Renascent Infiltration, and to bait & switch 'em with the Master of Diversion WLT.  Lots of positioning tricks to play with.

[TrawlingCleaner]

So far my experience only extends to 1k Tempest of War games of Iron Warriors Vs a whole lot of different armies. Some bits that I've found that others may not have yet:

Defilers are actually pretty good. With Heavy Bolters and a Havoc launcher they throw out a very good amount of shooting plus are decently handy in combat. If you're already taking a Master of Possession these are a great choice for a mixed capabilities unit. As IW there's the strat to double the models in an enemy unit for Blast weapons, this is great VS marines or similar Elite infantry. The battlecannon is really a Terminator killer! It's also S16 in combat, the D6 DMG is a downside for sure though 

 

Forgefiends with Ectoplasm cannons is fantastic, again another Terminator killer and great target for Methodical Destruction

 

Maulerfiends are great but will struggle Vs hordes. It can be a great distraction to just plow into the enemy lines and will crush any vehicles it touches.

Oblits aren't the swingy suicide unit they used to be. For me, they're definitely a slow and steady unit that kind of needs to start on the board. If they deepstrike, they're likely to be screened out and have to be placed unfavourably. If you're taking Oblits and want to walk them up the board, cultists seem almost mandatory to use the strat on.

The Blackrune is almost an autopick I think. It works on terminators so well. On Sunday I'll be trying it out as Red Corsairs but on a unit of bikes (also with MoT). I have a feeling that they have the potential to be as tanky/tankier than terminators whilst also being faster. The downside is that the damage output is definitely going to be lower

[MasterDeath]

- As I am playing Word Bearers, Possessed are like a mandatory accessory. Thankfully, combined with the Black Rune they hit like a truck and can take a good amount of damage. Full rerolls on the charge + full rerolls to wound if needed makes them destroy most things they touch. And, unlike Terminators, they are really fast as well.

- Legionaires with the Mark of Nurgle are really handy in holding objectives under fire. Grandfathers Blessing is always nice if needed, but often the threat of Transhuman is enough. And with the WB Trait they can punch and resist mortals as well.

- I am currently thinking about Plague Marines as another holder unit, but more on the shooty side, as WB already have enough melee material.

[Relic]

12 hours ago, EnsignJoker said:

Don’t forget you can only use three of the powers with those squad sorcerers! Death Hex, Warptime and Gift of Chaos aren’t able to be picked by a legionary squad. 

A sneaky way to get any of those powers into a list is a small MSU squad of Rubrics in Legions where you can take the different cult units. It also fulfills a core infantry choice if you're looking to just use troop slots for cultists. A squad of Rubics is 120pts, a similar legionnaire squad with the Tome is 110pts. Those extra 10pts get you the Mark of Tzeentch, extra versatily on picking spells, better gun on rubics and all is dust. Of course you trade off the legion trait and obsec. 

 

Regarding Oblits, I found them in the games I used them most useful when people shot them instead of my more threatening units! Similar concept to the Terminator brick with the black rune, if people are shooting them instead of your more flimsy units you are usually coming out ahead, especially if you also run a MOP with pact of flesh.   

[Maggotlord]

On 8/14/2022 at 9:47 AM, DesuVult said:

They don't do much on their own and what they can be counted on do to isn't that worthwhile often.  They don't really score primary or secondary objectives.  Their base durability isn't that impressive in practice and they need support that is often needed elsewhere.  They take up a chunk of points and I feel the CSM codex as it is now encourages you to squeeze whatever you can out of every choice you take.  In listbuilding you are trading out something for them and they can eat a substantial amount of opportunity cost if you invest in supporting them.

I play them in 25 PL / 500 pts games (our lunch break games) and they are just MVPs in every single game. Since years.

 

Please enlighten which other unit you´d choose instead (for the same cost). I can´t see a single unit that is able to compete with them when it comes down to ressilence, melee and ranged output. They are extremely versatile and maybe that´s the reason why they shine in smaller points games and do not really scale with the game size.

 

In fact I like take them out for something different, because I like to make my list softer (I often play against beginners), but every single time I think: mmhh, but Oblits can do the same AND...

[DesuVult]

Just now, Maggotlord said:

I play them in 25 PL / 500 pts games (our lunch break games) and they are just MVPs in every single game. Since years.

 

Please enlighten which other unit you´d choose instead (for the same cost). I can´t see a single unit that is able to compete with them when it comes down to ressilence, melee and ranged output. They are extremely versatile and maybe that´s the reason why they shine in smaller points games and do not really scale with the game size.

 

In fact I like take them out for something different, because I like to make my list softer (I often play against beginners), but every single time I think: mmhh, but Oblits can do the same AND...

Playing at 500 points puts you playing in literally a different league than many if not most players.  GW isn't putting out a lot of Combat Patrol missions since with current books and balancing around 1,000 and 2,000 point games.  500 points is is pretty well known to be a point level with heavy skew due to troop and HQ tax eating up a substantial portion of your points leaving little on either side.

Their damage output doesn't come down to much in most circumstances.

 

9+d6 shots, S5 AP -1 D1.

3 necron warriors dead and 1 stands up.

3 fire warriors dead assuming no drones.

It rakes 4 turns for an obliterator to push t-shirt xenos off an objective with shooting and earn back it's points.

3+d3 shots, S7 AP -2, D2

1 marine dead, no plague marines dead, a little better than 50/50 to ding most T7 vehicles for 2 damage and puts 2 on most T6 targets.

This is an AC profile and those really only rock the table if you know you are going up against stuff like drukhari vehicles.  Into most armies it is an anemic profile.

d3 shots S9 AP -3 D4

This is what I view as their most worthwhile profile because it is a 2 shot lascannon with flat damage finally.  Unfortunately it is still random shot count.  It can pick off stuff you like to kill but has too few shots to do it sufficiently consistently without buffs which is has limited access to.

It has access to VotLW and Unending Destruction for 2CP each but that is substantial CP investment on smaller units and flat wound bonuses give better returns on high attack volume but a large unit is a substantial point investment that risks being ignorable due to speed, range, and terrain.  As they are nor core they cannot take prayers or lord rerolls.  From Dark Hereticus their shooting is buffed by Prescience.  From Malefic Warp-Marked is a great boon but that is targetted on enemies instead of a unit buff.

For what is better it is hard to say because I do not know what legion you use.  My replacement as Iron Warriors is forgefiends because my local meta is awash with plague marines and W3 models and because Iron Warriors have a lot of stratagem support for them.  The main one being Methodical Annihilation where for 1 CP enemy unit size counts as double for blast ensuring the forgefiend has 9 shots at 3 damage.  Most of the rest of the army excels at clearing chaff, our access to anti-tank or anti-terminator weapons is limited.

At low point games I would just bring more infantry.  Possessed aren't something I bring for aesthetic and lore reasons but their stats are good.  For durable objective holding I always go for infantry with marks even before I consider Bastion.

[Squike]

15 hours ago, DesuVult said:

Their damage output doesn't come down to much in most circumstances.

9+d6 shots, S5 AP -1 D1.

3 necron warriors dead and 1 stands up.

3 fire warriors dead assuming no drones.

It rakes 4 turns for an obliterator to push t-shirt xenos off an objective with shooting and earn back it's points.

3+d3 shots, S7 AP -2, D2

1 marine dead, no plague marines dead, a little better than 50/50 to ding most T7 vehicles for 2 damage and puts 2 on most T6 targets.

This is an AC profile and those really only rock the table if you know you are going up against stuff like drukhari vehicles.  Into most armies it is an anemic profile.

d3 shots S9 AP -3 D4

This is what I view as their most worthwhile profile because it is a 2 shot lascannon with flat damage finally.  Unfortunately it is still random shot count.  It can pick off stuff you like to kill but has too few shots to do it sufficiently consistently without buffs which is has limited access to.

unfortunately I have found this to be the case 100%, sure they were swingy before but I feel there output was so much better on average, and it at least made them interesting. now they feel just completely lacklustre. 

I'm unfortunately stuck with them a little bit until the local league I'm in comes to an end. 

[Maggotlord]

Maybe it's due to the fact that we lost the following buffs:

- shoot twice for 1cp

- +1 on wound rolls for 1 cp

- reroll their damage profil (Iron Warriors stratagem) 

 

I believe these made them outstanding and none of them can be done anymore. 

To be honest, their damage output isn't great, but they are a threat nonetheless. It seems to me that this potential threat is their biggest strength. It's similar to that Necron vehicle with its D6 shots at S10 and damage W6. It can do serious damage, which your opponent can't fully neglect. 

Edited August 19, 2022 by Maggotlord

[Dr_Ruminahui]

One thing I'm concerned with is the Master of Possession & Obliterator combo is that as soon as you have 2 or fewer models in the obliterator squad the master of possession is no longer protected by the Look Out Sir! rule - for those folks who are using the combo successfully, are your opponents simply not targetting the MoP, or are you also keeping another unit near it to make sure it keeps the Look Out Sir! protection?

[Toldavf]

1 hour ago, Dr_Ruminahui said:

One thing I'm concerned with is the Master of Possession & Obliterator combo is that as soon as you have 2 or fewer models in the obliterator squad the master of possession is no longer protected by the Look Out Sir! rule - for those folks who are using the combo successfully, are your opponents simply not targetting the MoP, or are you also keeping another unit near it to make sure it keeps the Look Out Sir! protection?

Also the horrendous points investment. Oblits take to many synergy pieces to get them into a good place imo. 

[Slave to Darkness]

How good are the mortal units, Dark Commune, Accursed Cultists and Cultist Mobs? For some reason I fancy using an all mortal force (maybe chuck in a few Spawn) against a small guard army and Im wondering if its even worth doing or will I get trampled?

[Toldavf]

50 points for a squad that does actions aint bad. 

[Relic]

Cultists are near necessary I think. As Toldavf says, you need someone to do actions/sit on objectives/take up space/eat mortal wounds. 

Accursed Cultists I have not used, but heard good things due to the ability to regen models from the dead which is great for objective shenanigans. 

Dark Commune I again have not used, but in general the HQ slots are quite competitive in the book. So any choice which is just "good" will unlikely make the cut unfortunately. Most Chaos lists appear to start with a Dark Apostle and Master of Possession, which is 2/3 HQ slots. 

[Slave to Darkness]

 Guess Ill find out the hard way then if the Dark Commune is decent or not as Im limiting myself to meatshields and no marines in the force. Its gonna be an 'interesting' experience using an army that isnt maxed out on Terminators, Possessed and Dreadnaughts like my usual armies.