[3k] Questoris Knights

[oldhat]

6x Armigers 1245pt

• 3x Helverins
• 3x Warglaives w/ Meltaguns

Lord of War:
Questoris Knight Magaera
Claw
Preceptor
[455]

Knight Atrapos
Seneschal
[580]

Acastus Knight Porphyrion
Arbalester
2x Lascannon, Hyperion
[720]

[3000]

I absolutely hate that this list is now forced to take six Armigers and can only fit in three Knights and to pad points you are stuck adding ranks that are generally kinda meh and/or using high cost Knights since you wind up with so many spare points but not enough slots.

The idea here is the Magaera and Atrapos move up with the Warglaives as a hammer, while the Helvs and Acastus anchor the back field and shoot stuff. Not really wholly sold on this and I am exploring all the options, but you are really hemmed in with the army restrictions. I could easily cram in another Knight if I didn't need two more Armigers to open up the slot. I wish the list came base with a single LoW slot and you unlocked more. That would make list building at least somewhat flexible.

The Acastus seems overpriced. The Atrapos has a gross gun as does the Magaera. Helverin guns seem nice at AP3 with Ignores Cover and Rending. I couldn't see a good reason to run a base Questoris Knight. The old "Warden" build seems fine, but it didn't seem as strong as the Magaera.

Thoughts? Ideas?

[Dont-Be-Haten]

Why not just take an allied detachment?

[oldhat]

1 hour ago, Dont-Be-Haten said:

Why not just take an allied detachment?

Because I want to take a Questoris Knight army?

[Dont-Be-Haten]

I get it, but if you can only take so many knights and have a lot of leftover points, an allied detachment should allow you to fill thr gaps. At minimum couldn't you ally in more knights? Or am I just getting 1.0 and 2.0 mixed up?

[oldhat]

11 minutes ago, Dont-Be-Haten said:

I get it, but if you can only take so many knights and have a lot of leftover points, an allied detachment should allow you to fill thr gaps. At minimum couldn't you ally in more knights? Or am I just getting 1.0 and 2.0 mixed up?

Can't ally in Knights that I'm aware of. Though I'm going off the book reviews and don't have the actual book in front of me.

[Dont-Be-Haten]

Used to you could ally them in, like in an allied detachments LoW slot.

[oldhat]

12 minutes ago, Dont-Be-Haten said:

Used to you could ally them in, like in an allied detachments LoW slot.

Allied detachments don't seem to have a LoW slot. And because they changed how their force org works, you can use the standard allied detachment for them otherwise. They really, really crapped on this army for 2.0. 

[Dont-Be-Haten]

Hmm..I was under the impression from the rulebook that a primary and secondary detachment could be 2 of the same detachments, or different based on what RoW's were offered. No book in hand to back up this statement. I also don't know what all the options are for Questoris knights.

I'll have to go back and do some research. I have the knight house Vyronii with 6 big boys and far less Armigers.

[Noserenda]

Even if you could ally in the same army (dubious) you would still run into the problem of needing 2 armigers per bigger knight, im not sure what that solves? 

[Dont-Be-Haten]

Knights need their squires! 

[Trokair]

Did any of the reviews clarify if you still had to pay the LoW points percentage that applies to other forces and their LoW?

 

I would also suggest an allied detachment, flavour them as the household guard/tech support and get a Macrotek Archmagos and some troop Tech Priest auxiliary/enginseers to help keep the knights alive.

[oldhat]

2 hours ago, Trokair said:

Did any of the reviews clarify if you still had to pay the LoW points percentage that applies to other forces and their LoW?

 

I would also suggest an allied detachment, flavour them as the household guard/tech support and get a Macrotek Archmagos and some troop Tech Priest auxiliary/enginseers to help keep the knights alive.

I doubt there is a LoW point limit given the nature of the army. Though maybe if you bring in another non-Questoris one, it may apply. So like a Titan Maniple Warhound would fit.

I really, really don't want to add in allies. I already spent a small fortune on my big Knights of which I now can only field three of vs my original 6-7. Buying yet another army to tack onto my existing one is just not my goal (yet).

Once I get my hands on the book maybe I'll see some synergy and relent, but I'd love to just stick to Knights.

[Dont-Be-Haten]

I personally wouldn't have a problem with you just fielding big boys. Although the smaller chasis seem good, and being MC gives them some needed defenses.

I'm in the same boat. I have 7 big knights, and only 2 small ones, so spending $150 to be able to field three big boys doesn't feel awesome. Who knows, maybe down the line they will get a RoW that allows them to bypass the tax.

[oldhat]

1 hour ago, Dont-Be-Haten said:

I personally wouldn't have a problem with you just fielding big boys. Although the smaller chasis seem good, and being MC gives them some needed defenses.

I'm in the same boat. I have 7 big knights, and only 2 small ones, so spending $150 to be able to field three big boys doesn't feel awesome. Who knows, maybe down the line they will get a RoW that allows them to bypass the tax.

I sent them an email that they likely will ignore but made the recommendation of just having one LoW slot open by default. That is literally all the list needs to function better. That would be six Armigers and four big Knights - a huge step down from 6-7 from 1.0, while still keeping the Armiger thing they put in place. Maybe if enough people petition for that they'd change it but probably not .

I have to order six Armigers now and its depressing. My only two chassis I had previously were Moirox, which now will gather dust as I can't use them in my list.

[ChrisCryx]

Take Mechanicus allies, and use the Moirax as heavy supports - you will have to find points for a hq and troops choice. 

[oldhat]

52 minutes ago, ChrisCryx said:

Take Mechanicus allies, and use the Moirax as heavy supports - you will have to find points for a hq and troops choice. 

I mean that kinda isn't what I am going for and don't really want more baby Knights in my list...

But yeah, this is probably what I will do and it is extremely frustrating. I just wanted to use the Knights I already own and not need to buy more stuff. Now I am looking at a HUGE expense just to make my army legal and then even more to make it "better".

[Mandragola]

I understand your frustration at having to bring Armigers, but I think it's necessary to make for interesting games. Just facing six or seven lords of war is horrible.

Far from being overpriced I think they might have really messed up with the Porphyrion. There's nothing else in the game, or at least not anything remotely close to its points cost, that chucks out four S10 AP2 large blasts per turn. A Warhound's guns have half as many shots and none at AP2. That's an absolute beast of a model. It's incredibly tough with 9hp and a 4++ against most shooting.

[Dont-Be-Haten]

Squires taking pinning tests and being able to be swept is weird. I agree with the Porphyrion

[Noserenda]

I think having one LoW slot, for your warlord perhaps? Is a reasonable compromise, 6+ LoW can be unreasonable or troublesome (though the nerf bat has been swung pretty liberally) but 3, 4 if they are cheap at 3000pts is ridiculous.

Edited August 23, 2022 by Noserenda

[oldhat]

If I was going bring in some Mechanicum units to pad it out, what are we thinking? 

From a cursory read of the book, I'm thinking Techpriest Auxilia units set up to repair my big Knights - because of course they goofed on Battlesmith and it can't repair Armigers which I hope is FAQ'd soon. 

The Priests are Line apparently and with a Macrotek Archmagos they are troop choices, so I don't have to take a troop unit as a tax of sorts. I can toss in like 5 or 6 Rotor Servitors to give the army some Pinning.

A duo or trio of the Moirox seem solid. The Claw with AP2 Brutal hits and the AP3 Rending blast of the Lighting Gun seems real good at MEQ killing.

Think it's worth adding in this allied detachment? Multiple Battlesmith 4+ out to 12" via CT and moving terrain pieces from the Archmagos are some handy things for a Knight list. Though for the points I'm finding it a struggle to keep three knights in the list at that point.

[Trokair]

Some repair units is very much whant I had in mind as a cheep ally detachment. Had not relaised that the Armiger wording exclude them from repairs, that dose seem odd indeed. 

[Marshal Mittens]

Ask folks in casual games if you can ignore the armigar restrictions and run all big knights?

[Mandragola]

54 minutes ago, Trokair said:

Some repair units is very much whant I had in mind as a cheep ally detachment. Had not relaised that the Armiger wording exclude them from repairs, that dose seem odd indeed. 

Yep. Armigers, as an entirely new unit type, are covered by none of the rules that target other specific unit types, as currently written. They're immune to haywire, krak grenades and melta bombs but also can't be affected by repairs. Poison and fleshbane work on them normally. A FAQ would be handy.

Armigers also have the Skirmish unit type, which isn't in the Mechanicum book. Presumably it's the same rule as in the Legion books, improving their cover saves by 1 and giving them 3" unit coherency (though they're in units of 1 so whatever).

Moirax are neither Skirmish or, more importantly, Line. I can't see very strong arguments for taking them as Admech allies for a Knight army when you can just take as many normal armigers as you like. Normal ones are mostly better.

You can also bring Legion allies if you like. That's probably the most effective option I think. Get yourself a Librarian or something, or something either speedy or shooty to complement your knights. Or wait and see what the Custodes and Militia lists look like, perhaps using the latter to represent the troops of the household's world.

Edited August 23, 2022 by Mandragola

[oldhat]

20 hours ago, Marshall Mittens said:

Ask folks in casual games if you can ignore the armigar restrictions and run all big knights?

I don't do that. I always try to stick to the rules as written, no matter how frustrating that may be. Most people are thankful the all-Knight lists are gone anyhow, so who would agree to play it? Lmao

19 hours ago, Mandragola said:

Yep. Armigers, as an entirely new unit type, are covered by none of the rules that target other specific unit types, as currently written. They're immune to haywire, krak grenades and melta bombs but also can't be affected by repairs. Poison and fleshbane work on them normally. A FAQ would be handy.

Armigers also have the Skirmish unit type, which isn't in the Mechanicum book. Presumably it's the same rule as in the Legion books, improving their cover saves by 1 and giving them 3" unit coherency (though they're in units of 1 so whatever).

Moirax are neither Skirmish or, more importantly, Line. I can't see very strong arguments for taking them as Admech allies for a Knight army when you can just take as many normal armigers as you like. Normal ones are mostly better.

You can also bring Legion allies if you like. That's probably the most effective option I think. Get yourself a Librarian or something, or something either speedy or shooty to complement your knights. Or wait and see what the Custodes and Militia lists look like, perhaps using the latter to represent the troops of the household's world.

Oh, I disagree the normal Armigers are better. The Claw has AP2 and is Brutal 2, meaning it can actually put a hurt 2W TEQ. Also, the Lightning Gun looks absolutely solid vs MEQ and TEQ. S7 AP3 Rending 4+ Exoshock 4+ is pretty silly. I think it has Shred too! If the Claw wasn't so good, double Lightning would be very tempting.

I already have a couple of Marine armies and no interest in the other factions generally. Solar Auxilia would be rad just for the models but they seem like they'll be phased out or just sidelined going forward.

I think having a way to repair the Knights, especially an Acastus that already has IWND6+, could be real mean. If you bring a Macrotek, moving three pieces of terrain up to 6" each is pretty huge for making firing lanes too.

One thing I'm debating on is how to kit the Archmagos to support the list. Bare bones seems ideal, but part of me wants to make him a beatstick since that's so cheap to do.

ETA List Idea:

Troops:
(2) Helverins
(2) Warglaives
[800]

Acastus Knight Porphyrion
2x Lascannons, Hyperios Warheads, Preceptor
[700]

Questoris Knight Magaera
Claw, Seneshcal
[490]

[1990]

HQ:
Archmagos Prime
Cyber-Familiar, Paragon Blade, Photon Gauntlet
[190]

Troops:
Tech-Priest Auxilia
Magos Auxilia w/ Augury Scanner, Artificia Machina, Cyber-Familiar
1x Tech-Priests
5x Rotor Cannon Servo-Automata
2x Servo Automata
[205]

Tech-Priest Auxilia
Magos Auxilia w/ Augury Scanner, Artificia Machina, Cyber-Familiar
1x Tech-Priests
5x Rotor Cannon Servo-Automata
2x Servo Automata
[205]

Heavy:
(2) Knight Moirax Talon
Siege-Claw, Lightning Lock
[410]

[1010]

[3000]

Not sure if that is at all optimal. Once they FAQ repairing Armigers, this list can repair via Battlesmith 4+ with five models. Three can do it out to 12", which means they can spread out a bit. Added back in the Acastus since it gives such a solid firing base, plus IWND6+ on top of being repaired would be amusing.

Edited August 24, 2022 by oldhat