Are digital-only rules acceptable?

[Inquisitor_Lensoven]

I find it interesting the number of people who want rules to go up online/digital only.

some will remember, some may not, some may never even know this was already tried once briefly almost 20 years ago.

if you check my signature you’ll see I survived the PDF heresy. What does that mean?

well once upon a time the entire BA codex was a free PDF, that anyone could download.

people were very mad and hated it. Maybe the technology was lacking at the time, maybe we were all still stuck in the past and not able to see what the future held, like so many can now,  but at the time it was hated and I really wonder if digital only for rules wouldn’t still be hated.

[Blade of Sigismund]

I expect the culture has changed considerably in 20 years.

I personally like the books, but with the sheer volume of FAQs and updates, it's kind of ridiculous. The rules in the book are out of date almost as soon as they're printed.

Points are changed, rules are changed... I think tyranids got changed 3 times in the first month?

By the time a book needs 1-5 pages of downloaded and printed rules to make it functional... it doesn't really seem like it's worth it.

 

All that said, i can't see them changing it. It's 45-135 USD in guaranteed sales  per player.

[Lord_Ikka]

I want digital rules- I don't care if they decide to make fluff-centric codices that are hardback and super-nice so that people can still get the experience of the old school stuff (I'm all for it), but I want modern rules. That means digital rules (possibly tied to a subscription service because it might literally pain GW to make them free), that are updated in a reasonable time frame. No more FAQs out two weeks/a minth after a codex releases that invalidate a bunch of core rules (that were in the codex to deal with a meta six months before the codex was released). Modern rule distribution means you can't rely on old-style book production- the internet has made competitive list-building and meta-chasing an issue that has to be dealt with by more proactive means.

 

I think a lot of tabletop gamers would be fine with online-only rules. X-wing already does it, I believe Marvel Crisis Protocol does, and I think Privateer Press is moving Warmachine that way as well. It is becoming more common to have info online and with almost everyone having at least a smartphone, not really a big deal to have the rules there. Young people will soon expect it (making it a priority to get more people into the hobby), and frankly I don't want to carry a bunch of books around when I'm already lugging my models and other gaming supplies too.

Edited August 22, 2022 by Lord_Ikka

[Inquisitor_Lensoven]

1 hour ago, Lord_Ikka said:

I want digital rules- I don't care if they decide to make fluff-centric codices that are hardback and super-nice so that people can still get the experience of the old school stuff (I'm all for it), but I want modern rules. That means digital rules (possibly tied to a subscription service because it might literally pain GW to make them free), that are updated in a reasonable time frame. No more FAQs out two weeks/a minth after a codex releases that invalidate a bunch of core rules (that were in the codex to deal with a meta six months before the codex was released). Modern rule distribution means you can't rely on old-style book production- the internet has made competitive list-building and meta-chasing an issue that has to be dealt with by more proactive means.

 

I think a lot of tabletop gamers would be fine with online-only rules. X-wing already does it, I believe Marvel Crisis Protocol does, and I think Privateer Press is moving Warmachine that way as well. It is becoming more common to have info online and with almost everyone having at least a smartphone, not really a big deal to have the rules there. Young people will soon expect it (making it a priority to get more people into the hobby), and frankly I don't want to carry a bunch of books around when I'm already lugging my models and other gaming supplies too.

if they did digital only, and made it a paid subscription service i would probably quit the game completely or just play older editions, i'm not paying them every month for rules that i previously got access to forever for a single payment only slightly above a reasonable price.

personally i think the model they have now, where you can have online rules and hardcopy is the best way to go.

Edited August 22, 2022 by Inquisitor_Lensoven

[MARK0SIAN]

I think their use of printed rules is definitely holding the game back and would love digital rules to be the primary method they use for all codexes and rule books. They could be updated in real time and because they were updated you’d only ever need one document rather than all the faqs and balance data slates that you need to cross reference now. 

If they wanted to produce a kind of collectors edition of the codexes for those who like them then that’s great but I’d be fine with digital only.

I wouldn’t want a subscription though, it would need to be a one off payment to buy the rulebook/codex that was then automatically updated whenever they changed something, like they did in 8th edition.

Edited August 22, 2022 by MARK0SIAN

[Evil Eye]

I actually disagree and would rather we stayed with treeware as the primary rules source. In fact I think the opposite solution is better- keep books as the main source of rules, and only update the rules when absolutely 100% necessary. We have far too many updates as is at the moment.

[slitth]

I think they should still do codex, but not with the rules written in them.

The codex could just contain the fluff, the showcase and such. 

As a dexus collectors item.

Then they have a redeemable code that allows people to download and print the rules. 

 

 

 

 

[Halandaar]

The only compelling reason for GW to persist with the current model is that it sells them the most books and makes them the most money. Want to play your army? Buy the Codex. Want to play the cool new subfaction rules that should have been in the Codex anyway? Buy the Campaign Book. Want to play with the latest rules? Buy the Mission Pack. Want to play the army of renown? Buy this other Campaign Book. Space Marine player? Don't forget your chapter supplement! Wait, don't you want to use the extra rules from this White Dwarf issue? 

We're already back at the stage where you potentially need multiple books to play a single army, and then GW is invalidating those books faster than ever before with day-1 errata and balance updates that can fundamentally change how entire armies work.

I get people want books, and I too find them easier to flip through than searching PDFs or other online sources. But flipping through a book is made increasingly difficult over time if you have to cover the thing in sticky notes telling you to refer to this FAQ or that Balance Update or whatever and stuff the back of every Codex with printouts of new rules.

At least a fully-digital ruleset would have the undeniable benefit that GW could simply replace sections of books that are no longer up to date with the current wording and push that to everybody. But we all know why they don't, and it's because there isn't a financial benefit to them to do so.

[Special Officer Doofy]

@Halandaar you hit the nail on the head with the first paragraph.

[RWJP]

I don't think we can really compare people's reactions to a PDF rule set from nearly 20 years ago to how people would react today.

As you touched on, the technology we have to hand is different. 

Nowadays, everyone has a computer at home. Most people have a printer at home. Everyone has a smartphone, or a tablet, or both. Those smartphones/tablets are more powerful than the home computers people had 20 years ago. The accessibility to digital resources is on a completely different level to what it was 20 years ago.

[Evil Eye]

1 hour ago, Halandaar said:

The only compelling reason for GW to persist with the current model is that it sells them the most books and makes them the most money. Want to play your army? Buy the Codex. Want to play the cool new subfaction rules that should have been in the Codex anyway? Buy the Campaign Book. Want to play with the latest rules? Buy the Mission Pack. Want to play the army of renown? Buy this other Campaign Book. Space Marine player? Don't forget your chapter supplement! Wait, don't you want to use the extra rules from this White Dwarf issue? 

We're already back at the stage where you potentially need multiple books to play a single army, and then GW is invalidating those books faster than ever before with day-1 errata and balance updates that can fundamentally change how entire armies work.

I get people want books, and I too find them easier to flip through than searching PDFs or other online sources. But flipping through a book is made increasingly difficult over time if you have to cover the thing in sticky notes telling you to refer to this FAQ or that Balance Update or whatever and stuff the back of every Codex with printouts of new rules.

At least a fully-digital ruleset would have the undeniable benefit that GW could simply replace sections of books that are no longer up to date with the current wording and push that to everybody. But we all know why they don't, and it's because there isn't a financial benefit to them to do so.

This is a fair point, however I would much rather GW just stopped invalidating their existing rules so quickly/at all. I've said it before but ideally the only updates would be ones that add more content (ala Imperial Armour), not change what already exists.

[Brother Tyler]

One basic premise of this discussion is wrong - the "hatred" that [some members of] the community had towards the 4th edition Blood Angels codex wasn't [just] because it was available in digital format. Yes, that "codex" was available as a freely available pdf that could be downloaded from Games Workshop, but it was also printed in White Dwarf Magazine in the June and July issues of 2007. For many hobbyists, the digital format was perfectly fine, especially since the "codex" was also available in print format for those that couldn't/wouldn't take advantage of the digital format (and most people that took advantage of the digital format printed the files anyways - it wasn't the digital format that was attractive, but the free availability).

The rules/format were essentially in line with Codex: Space Marines (80 pages), Codex: Black Templars (the first codex solely dedicated to that Chapter) (66 pages), Codex: Dark Angels (90 pages), and Codex: Space Wolves (I'd have to break this out of storage to find the page count). 

The central complaint about the Blood Angels "codex" was that they didn't get an actual codex like the other Space Marine sub-factions, instead getting what amounted to 28 pages, far less than their counterparts. Yes, there were concerns about the rules [from some hobbyists], but it was really the lack of content that bothered most people, especially considering the fact that the Blood Angels have been one of the "Big 4" since 2nd edition.

The premise established in the OP is actually the reverse of the truth - for many, the fact that the 4th edition Blood Angels codex was available digitally was a step in the right direction and the fact that other codices weren't similarly available digitally was a source of complaining. As we've seen in this discussion so far, however, the needs/wants of the hobby community are varied and having rules available in just print or digital formats would disenfranchise some segment of the community. Instead, having rules available in both formats would be preferable, giving hobbyists the option to choose the format that works for them.

[MARK0SIAN]

2 hours ago, Evil Eye said:

I actually disagree and would rather we stayed with treeware as the primary rules source. In fact I think the opposite solution is better- keep books as the main source of rules, and only update the rules when absolutely 100% necessary. We have far too many updates as is at the moment.

The problem with that is that the updates we have had have been 100% percent necessary given how broken and overpowered the codexes have become and how much some of the rules aren’t fit for purpose. 

Your method would be fine if they could balance anything in the first place but they’ve proved time and time again that they can’t. 

[Halandaar]

14 minutes ago, Evil Eye said:

This is a fair point, however I would much rather GW just stopped invalidating their existing rules so quickly/at all. I've said it before but ideally the only updates would be ones that add more content (ala Imperial Armour), not change what already exists.

I don't disagree, but a no-updates system relies on GW getting everything right at the first time of asking, which is not something they have a great track record of. As frustrating as the current system is, I can't say I'm wishing for a return to the bad old days where if your Codex wasn't very good on day one then your army just sucked for 3-6 years (or alternatively, if a book was good it just dominated the game until something worse came along.)

[Evil Eye]

38 minutes ago, MARK0SIAN said:

The problem with that is that the updates we have had have been 100% percent necessary given how broken and overpowered the codexes have become and how much some of the rules aren’t fit for purpose. 

Your method would be fine if they could balance anything in the first place but they’ve proved time and time again that they can’t. 

 

35 minutes ago, Halandaar said:

I don't disagree, but a no-updates system relies on GW getting everything right at the first time of asking, which is not something they have a great track record of. As frustrating as the current system is, I can't say I'm wishing for a return to the bad old days where if your Codex wasn't very good on day one then your army just sucked for 3-6 years (or alternatively, if a book was good it just dominated the game until something worse came along.)

Valid points, however I'd rather GW's rules department was completely overhauled and they just wrote balanced or at least functional rules to begin with. I'm genuinely wanting a return to 5th, which I maintain is hideously overrated!

Also quite honestly the utterly insane update cycle is so completely beyond a joke I'd genuinely prefer a codex remains crap/busted if it at least means that it's at least not invalidated a week later (also so that solutions to a 'dex being weak/strong can be formed as the meta doesn't change the very next day).

There's also the argument that if rules are so completely broken that they need constant updates/patches to work at all that they're not worth bothering with and we shouldn't be using them- digital OR paper. Myself I maintain if rules aren't good enough to buy a book for they're not worth playing, and as such will not be buying any more rules for mainline 40K until GW gets their act together.

[Inquisitor_Lensoven]

3 hours ago, Halandaar said:

The only compelling reason for GW to persist with the current model is that it sells them the most books and makes them the most money. Want to play your army? Buy the Codex. Want to play the cool new subfaction rules that should have been in the Codex anyway? Buy the Campaign Book. Want to play with the latest rules? Buy the Mission Pack. Want to play the army of renown? Buy this other Campaign Book. Space Marine player? Don't forget your chapter supplement! Wait, don't you want to use the extra rules from this White Dwarf issue? 

We're already back at the stage where you potentially need multiple books to play a single army, and then GW is invalidating those books faster than ever before with day-1 errata and balance updates that can fundamentally change how entire armies work.

I get people want books, and I too find them easier to flip through than searching PDFs or other online sources. But flipping through a book is made increasingly difficult over time if you have to cover the thing in sticky notes telling you to refer to this FAQ or that Balance Update or whatever and stuff the back of every Codex with printouts of new rules.

At least a fully-digital ruleset would have the undeniable benefit that GW could simply replace sections of books that are no longer up to date with the current wording and push that to everybody. But we all know why they don't, and it's because there isn't a financial benefit to them to do so.

Any and all updates to rules should be free regardless of how they move forward.

idk but I don’t think I will ever find it satisfying to play with the rules on my phone, rather than having *most of the rules in a hard copy. 
 

I think the best way to move forward is optional digital download either for free or 15% of the price of the codex, and then a codex with QR code or something that unlocks the digital version of the rules.

I don’t understand this ‘rules should be digital only, but they can still make a lore, and picture book for people that want it.’ mindset.

im not particularly interested in the pictures of the models, some of the artwork is cool, and the lore is nice for new players, but most of it is recycled stuff I more or less know by heart already.

Edited August 22, 2022 by Inquisitor_Lensoven

[TheMarsian]

Make physical copies (we all love the smell and feel of a fresh codex lets be real here) and include a digital code as we have now. However, the digital version should be updated with whatever changes they make to it. 
That way we have both choices. 

[Joe]

Shifting to a digital-exclusive model would be incredibly discriminatory against people with visual impairments. Both is preferable.

Edited August 22, 2022 by Joe
a word

[Inquisitor_Lensoven]

30 minutes ago, TheMarsian said:

Make physical copies (we all love the smell and feel of a fresh codex lets be real here) and include a digital code as we have now. However, the digital version should be updated with whatever changes they make to it. 
That way we have both choices. 

I think what people really want is free/cheap rules, so a digital only option that is indeed, cheap or free alongside the hardcopy with a digital code would be ideal for everyone i think, and would really help lower the bar for entry into the game, especially if they did that with the BRB as well.

for a BA player like myself making all those rules free, removes a $158 fee to play, making it much easier for new players to get into the hobby. that $158 essentially covers a whole CP plus glue, paints/brushes, and measuring device

 

[Special Officer Doofy]

GW is in the market for making more money, not making their game more fun or more accessible with free rules. Not trying to be negative about it, just being honest. Don't get me wrong, I'm 100% for free rules, I just don't see it happening anytime soon.

I'm for having both digital and written rules, but with a digital only model they could release codexes closer together at the beginning of an edition without people going "bUt LoGiStIcS oF mUlTiPlE bOoKs" and the game could be alot more balanced with all 20+ faction codexes coming out in the same year of an edition instead of staggering them across 2+ years of an edition with codex creep getting out of hand. Alot of books like campaign books and crusade books didn't even come out with a digital version. Also would like it to be an actual digital version of the book, not a bad port into a bad app like we currently have with codexes. Why do I have to scroll down to my unlocked codex, why can't a billion dollar company's app be smart enough to move the unlocked codexes to the top?

[Inquisitor_Lensoven]

52 minutes ago, Putrid Choir said:

GW is in the market for making more money, not making their game more fun or more accessible with free rules. Not trying to be negative about it, just being honest. Don't get me wrong, I'm 100% for free rules, I just don't see it happening anytime soon.

I'm for having both digital and written rules, but with a digital only model they could release codexes closer together at the beginning of an edition without people going "bUt LoGiStIcS oF mUlTiPlE bOoKs" and the game could be alot more balanced with all 20+ faction codexes coming out in the same year of an edition instead of staggering them across 2+ years of an edition with codex creep getting out of hand. Alot of books like campaign books and crusade books didn't even come out with a digital version. Also would like it to be an actual digital version of the book, not a bad port into a bad app like we currently have with codexes. Why do I have to scroll down to my unlocked codex, why can't a billion dollar company's app be smart enough to move the unlocked codexes to the top?

They could still do a dual model, releasing digital rules first, then going ahead and release the hard copies later

[RWJP]

3 hours ago, TheMarsian said:

Make physical copies (we all love the smell and feel of a fresh codex lets be real here) and include a digital code as we have now. However, the digital version should be updated with whatever changes they make to it. 
That way we have both choices. 

To be fair, this is basically what we already have. The digital version of the rules you unlock in the 40k app are updated with changes.

While the army builder section of the 40k app is pretty rubbish, the rules reference bit tends to be fine from what I have used so far.

[Noserenda]

You should be able to buy both formats, being forced to fork out for a physical codex just to get access to the substandard app for rules is getting close to the worst of both worlds though, bring back codexes i can just download on my pc and read, printing off bits if needed, gw is just leaving money on the table here honestly because im just not buying codexes as a result. 

Because if you dont provide a decent online option, someone else will.

[tychobi]

No one disliked a digital option. Digital format was scuttled due to alleged piracy and remains so today. The legacy of obsolete on release books and predatory business practices is a wary and distrustful community who is happy to share the information needed to play the game.  The present quality of GW digital products makes a living online rules set a bit of a pipe dream. (the codexes are rules wake up people) As customers we do not seem to rate very high on GW priority lists.

 

[MARK0SIAN]

17 minutes ago, tychobi said:

No one disliked a digital option. Digital format was scuttled due to alleged piracy and remains so today. The legacy of obsolete on release books and predatory business practices is a wary and distrustful community who is happy to share the information needed to play the game.  The present quality of GW digital products makes a living online rules set a bit of a pipe dream. (the codexes are rules wake up people) As customers we do not seem to rate very high on GW priority lists.

 

We don’t rate very highly on their priority list because no matter what they do we still keep handing over money to them. From a company perspective we’re the hen that keeps laying the golden eggs no matter what they feed it