Are digital-only rules acceptable?

[Special Officer Doofy]

43 minutes ago, MARK0SIAN said:

We don’t rate very highly on their priority list because no matter what they do we still keep handing over money to them. From a company perspective we’re the hen that keeps laying the golden eggs no matter what they feed it 

The amount of cringe posters on this forum alone when they reveal stuff that go "ooo my poor wallet" is the reason GW will keep doing what they're doing, because they are making money from enough people.

[Domhnall]

I've not read all posts on thread yet, so may double up someones post, but my preference would be that all the rules are free. You can download the rules, stats, etc online, that are updated as and when, and you then have to go download them yourself. 

You can also pay a sub for an app that automatically updates for you (because some of us are lazy/and or forget, me included!). 

If you want the stories, the fluffy fluff, artwork, etc you need to purchase the book. 

That means everybody can have the rules and play the game, but not everyone wants the extra "bumf" they don't want. 

Will it please everybody? Warp no! But you can't please everybody, but as Slaanesh says, the best situation is please as many people as you can. 

[sairence]

16 hours ago, TheMarsian said:

Make physical copies (we all love the smell and feel of a fresh codex lets be real here) and include a digital code as we have now. However, the digital version should be updated with whatever changes they make to it. 
That way we have both choices.

That model ia technically almost what we have now, if the app was worth a damn.

It fails in that it still requires me to buy a book that I will often be required to bring with me to some events and which by necessity will be outdated eventually.

So it adds print, which requires significant shipping and logistics beyond just the paper and ink and adds more weight I have to carry. I can't remember the last time I actually had to look up anything in my books, I either had the cards or my tablet/phone on easier reach. And my army list and scoring is on my tablet anyway, so that's out during my games regardless.

 

So for me, any solution that still requires me to purchase a physical book is pretty useless. Sure it looks pretty, but frankly storage space is limited and mostly taken up by my models. Digital rules, wether free or discounted to account for the savings of not printing and shipping, would in my oppinion focus the hobby more on the core concept of painting and playing with models. For me, at any rate.

[Lord Marshal]

The only time I have an issue with digital-only is when people exclusively use Wahpedia/Battlescribe.

If someone's starting a new army and they don't want to invest much into it yet I don't mind, but if it's a tournament/campaign game or someone's been playing that army for months, I've quickly gone from sympathetic about someone not wanting to spend too much on GW's questionable rulesets, to rolling my eyes every time I hear "but Battlescribe doesn't say that..."

Edited August 23, 2022 by Lord Marshal

[Special Officer Doofy]

GW could learn a thing or two from waha. Even though I have the codex, app, campaign book and so on for my factions, the website is laid out so much better and has all the info consolidated into one spot for each faction. I much prefer it over my digital app version and physical books that get outdated almost immediately, that's for sure.

[m_r_parker]

To preface this post - the example below is based on Age of Sigmar, which technically is against forum rules, but can easily be translated to 40k

This weekend I will be attending the Age of Sigmar Doubles Tournament at Warhammer World, and am currently gathering the necessary rules required for both my and my partners list. I will be playing Blades of Khorne, he will be playing Gloomspite Gitz (Troggoths specifically). The following is my current list of rules that I need to take:

• Core Rules & Generals Handbook - fortunately the base rules are included in the General's Handbook
• Battletome: Blades of Khorne
  • White Dwarf 474, for Blades of Khorne supplement, for 3rd Edition
  • Blades of Khorne FAQ
• Battletome: Gloomspite Gitz
  • White Dwarf 457, for Troggoth update to Gloomspite Gitz
  • Gloomspite Gitz FAQ
• Battletome: Slaves to Darkness (I had a few points left over, and a Spawn was just about the only thing of use I could include)

 

I have physical copies of all of them, and while I will bring them with me I'm not planning on using any of them. I'm been writing my own cheat-sheets to consolidate army specific rules onto a single page, and transferring war scroll cards to a compact version that fits onto a single page of A4. With my Warscroll Builder list, these will be laminate and used throughout the weekend. 

Technically, I could be using the AoS app for a lot of this. It would cover the base rules, faction rules, war scroll cards, and has a list builder in it. But my phone is a bit older, and therefore I can't use the app because it requires a newer version of my phones OS. As much time and effort is required in doing what I've just done, it's far cheaper than deciding to replace my phone just to get an app.

I've bought physical copies of 9th Ed 40k and 3rd Ed AoS codices / battle tomes, and I have redeemed my codes online for digital copies. But 1) you can only see them in an app, not in a web-browser on the GW site (I'm not even complaining about not being able to download them), and 2) the app (again) isn't supported on my phone.

Going "Digital-only" sounds great, until you think about the practicalities of it. Parts of the UK are still remote enough that they don't have decent broadband and / or 3G+ phone signal. How do you handle the app on legacy equipment and deal with obsolescence? I'm fairly sure my phone is technologically advanced enough that it could handle the AoS app without issue, but during the development it was decided that the most up-to-date version of the phone OS was required - I'm sure they could have made it without needing that version of the OS, and support a wider % of device users.

So how about we instead try to make rules accessible for as many people as possible, by making them available in as many ways as possible. Physical, digital, app, web, etc.

[MARK0SIAN]

23 minutes ago, m_r_parker said:

To preface this post - the example below is based on Age of Sigmar, which technically is against forum rules, but can easily be translated to 40k

This weekend I will be attending the Age of Sigmar Doubles Tournament at Warhammer World, and am currently gathering the necessary rules required for both my and my partners list. I will be playing Blades of Khorne, he will be playing Gloomspite Gitz (Troggoths specifically). The following is my current list of rules that I need to take:

• Core Rules & Generals Handbook - fortunately the base rules are included in the General's Handbook
• Battletome: Blades of Khorne
  • White Dwarf 474, for Blades of Khorne supplement, for 3rd Edition
  • Blades of Khorne FAQ
• Battletome: Gloomspite Gitz
  • White Dwarf 457, for Troggoth update to Gloomspite Gitz
  • Gloomspite Gitz FAQ
• Battletome: Slaves to Darkness (I had a few points left over, and a Spawn was just about the only thing of use I could include)

 

I have physical copies of all of them, and while I will bring them with me I'm not planning on using any of them. I'm been writing my own cheat-sheets to consolidate army specific rules onto a single page, and transferring war scroll cards to a compact version that fits onto a single page of A4. With my Warscroll Builder list, these will be laminate and used throughout the weekend. 

Technically, I could be using the AoS app for a lot of this. It would cover the base rules, faction rules, war scroll cards, and has a list builder in it. But my phone is a bit older, and therefore I can't use the app because it requires a newer version of my phones OS. As much time and effort is required in doing what I've just done, it's far cheaper than deciding to replace my phone just to get an app.

I've bought physical copies of 9th Ed 40k and 3rd Ed AoS codices / battle tomes, and I have redeemed my codes online for digital copies. But 1) you can only see them in an app, not in a web-browser on the GW site (I'm not even complaining about not being able to download them), and 2) the app (again) isn't supported on my phone.

Going "Digital-only" sounds great, until you think about the practicalities of it. Parts of the UK are still remote enough that they don't have decent broadband and / or 3G+ phone signal. How do you handle the app on legacy equipment and deal with obsolescence? I'm fairly sure my phone is technologically advanced enough that it could handle the AoS app without issue, but during the development it was decided that the most up-to-date version of the phone OS was required - I'm sure they could have made it without needing that version of the OS, and support a wider % of device users.

So how about we instead try to make rules accessible for as many people as possible, by making them available in as many ways as possible. Physical, digital, app, web, etc.

Going fully digital doesn’t have to exclude anyone through technological means. I’d be genuinely happy with a pdf of the rules, no one says it’s got to be an app. 

[Noserenda]

+1 to waha-pedia being a much better organised reference for gaming too, the last lot of games i played my phone battery died so i was using it on tablet instead of the app and my god was it a lot more useful, especially regarding stratagems.

[Inquisitor_Lensoven]

5 hours ago, Domhnall said:

I've not read all posts on thread yet, so may double up someones post, but my preference would be that all the rules are free. You can download the rules, stats, etc online, that are updated as and when, and you then have to go download them yourself. 

You can also pay a sub for an app that automatically updates for you (because some of us are lazy/and or forget, me included!). 

If you want the stories, the fluffy fluff, artwork, etc you need to purchase the book. 

That means everybody can have the rules and play the game, but not everyone wants the extra "bumf" they don't want. 

Will it please everybody? Warp no! But you can't please everybody, but as Slaanesh says, the best situation is please as many people as you can. 

I don’t understand this idea of having a book but not just including the initial rules as released in it…

[Inquisitor_Lensoven]

3 hours ago, m_r_parker said:

To preface this post - the example below is based on Age of Sigmar, which technically is against forum rules, but can easily be translated to 40k

This weekend I will be attending the Age of Sigmar Doubles Tournament at Warhammer World, and am currently gathering the necessary rules required for both my and my partners list. I will be playing Blades of Khorne, he will be playing Gloomspite Gitz (Troggoths specifically). The following is my current list of rules that I need to take:

• Core Rules & Generals Handbook - fortunately the base rules are included in the General's Handbook
• Battletome: Blades of Khorne
  • White Dwarf 474, for Blades of Khorne supplement, for 3rd Edition
  • Blades of Khorne FAQ
• Battletome: Gloomspite Gitz
  • White Dwarf 457, for Troggoth update to Gloomspite Gitz
  • Gloomspite Gitz FAQ
• Battletome: Slaves to Darkness (I had a few points left over, and a Spawn was just about the only thing of use I could include)

 

I have physical copies of all of them, and while I will bring them with me I'm not planning on using any of them. I'm been writing my own cheat-sheets to consolidate army specific rules onto a single page, and transferring war scroll cards to a compact version that fits onto a single page of A4. With my Warscroll Builder list, these will be laminate and used throughout the weekend. 

Technically, I could be using the AoS app for a lot of this. It would cover the base rules, faction rules, war scroll cards, and has a list builder in it. But my phone is a bit older, and therefore I can't use the app because it requires a newer version of my phones OS. As much time and effort is required in doing what I've just done, it's far cheaper than deciding to replace my phone just to get an app.

I've bought physical copies of 9th Ed 40k and 3rd Ed AoS codices / battle tomes, and I have redeemed my codes online for digital copies. But 1) you can only see them in an app, not in a web-browser on the GW site (I'm not even complaining about not being able to download them), and 2) the app (again) isn't supported on my phone.

Going "Digital-only" sounds great, until you think about the practicalities of it. Parts of the UK are still remote enough that they don't have decent broadband and / or 3G+ phone signal. How do you handle the app on legacy equipment and deal with obsolescence? I'm fairly sure my phone is technologically advanced enough that it could handle the AoS app without issue, but during the development it was decided that the most up-to-date version of the phone OS was required - I'm sure they could have made it without needing that version of the OS, and support a wider % of device users.

So how about we instead try to make rules accessible for as many people as possible, by making them available in as many ways as possible. Physical, digital, app, web, etc.

The UK is tiny how is any part of it remote enough that there are people who don’t have regular access to 3G?

however, I’d say it’s not a huge deal if the rules are downloadable, those people will eventually be in an actual town where they can hop on Wi-Fi and download the rules

[Helias_Tancred]

I can get behind digital rules, but I'd still want the option of owning my codex in book format. 

Maybe that would spur them to make a truly good game app? ;)

 

 

 

[Evil Eye]

One major issue I have with making the rules primarily digital is the means of accessing them, and what they mean for both access and archive purposes.

Freely distributed PDFs would be acceptable IMO. Ideally this would take the form of the Codex PDF being re-released after every update with the fixes applied, and a concurrent summary of the fixes thus far released for physical book owners. Furthermore, in line with standard practice for regularly updated digital products, older versions would be available from an archive if for whatever reason people wanted to use older versions (or for the event of "rollback" in case a patch absolutely sucked).

Note that this would only work if the rules were free and available without restrictions. Any kind of paywall would either be ineffective (people would just distribute the PDFs themselves) or would require measures that make the whole thing unusable (as is often the case with DRM).

Also it still has problems. Obviously you need to keep downloading the updates, so unless GW stops with their absurd update frequency the core problem is just mitigated. Also it necessitates having a portable device suitable for reading rules off of or at least a printer. And as someone without  a printer whose only portable device is a cheap and crummy smartphone, I'll stick to books.

I personally wouldn't trust an app, like, at all. Even if GW made a functional app (DOHOHOHO), you have the problem that GW only gives you the rules they want you to have. Unless they added an option to view older rules, which isn't likely, if GW rolls out an update and it sucks, you're stuck with it. Plus the rules are tied directly to the app, and thus cannot be archived when they are removed or a new edition rolls around. Also, it necessitates a stable internet connection (which is less guaranteed than you might think) and ideally a tablet. Again, my phone is small and not very powerful, and I wouldn't want to be playing a game reading rules off of that thing. And that's not even getting into the possibility of GW locking you out of the app for some reason! "We've detected you have Battlescribe installed on this device, your MyWarhammer Account has been banned from using the 40K app" sounds far fetched but companies have done similar things before.

So yeah, the only way I'd be prepared to accept digital rules is the free PDF model with full archives, in support of physical books and even then, only if the actual rules and update cycle improves a lot. And even then, I'd prefer sticking to books.

[Special Officer Doofy]

If GW did an all digital format, unless it was free it would not be a PDF because of how easy those are to pirate. They would probably use a special file format and an app (for better or worse). 

[Noserenda]

PDFs are pretty standard, certainly across the RPG industry, people are willing to buy legit copies when its easy and reasonably priced, its what makes my drivethru rpg account so fat :D

Regardless, there is no format, or app or anything else that cant be cracked and pirated anyway, like when they stopped selling epubs and the pirates didnt miss a beat, i got two copies sent to me on FB within hours of moaning about the lack of the option there from well meaning friends. 

As ive said before, and ill no doubt say again, you cant beat the pirates with walls and tech, just put a basic effort into out competing them.

[Slave to Darkness]

On 8/22/2022 at 6:40 PM, Joe said:

Shifting to a digital-exclusive model would be incredibly discriminatory against people with visual impairments. Both is preferable.

Good call on the bad eyesight, I didnt even think of that and I need visual enhancers (cant afford actual bionic eyes yet).

 

As for digital over print, my phones so old I cant even download PDF's on it, hell Whatsapp is now obsolete on this pieca junk. Im not investing in a new phone or a tablet just to use the rules in store, and Im not dragging my laptop along with my armies every time I play. Im not the only person I know who refuse to invest in new tech just because, I know loads of gamers who still use cheap £10 phones because they have more important things to spend cash on (mortgage, kids etc).  


As for 'printing out' the rules once you download them? If you play in an actual GW store prove thats a legit GW file you have printed and not got it off piratebay? Some GW managers are pretty iffy with stuff like that, Ive even been asked to not use photocopied pages even though the old dex books said permission to photocopy for personal use only, understandable if I copied the whole dex but I only used the reference chart in the back and some wargear bits...

 

Books all the way!!!

[Special Officer Doofy]

A digital version like a pdf instead of a phone app would be way better than a printed codex with tiny letters for someone visually impaired. It can be viewed on a larger screen, zoomed in, enlarged then printed or whatever needed. My visually impaired friend prefers everything on their large tablet because of the backlight and zoom function. 

[Noserenda]

Heh, ironically it was gaming at WHW that got me into printing off specific pages and home made cheatsheets, i had the old Black books in my mates car but they were awful for gaming with! 

And yeah, the woman i used to work next to was visually impaired and she never read anything that wasnt digital, her work PC and personal tablet had programs on them to essentially zoom everything right in to make them readable for her. The tech is already there if needed! :) 

[MARK0SIAN]

Yeah I’ve got to admit the idea that digital is discriminatory against people with visual impairments seems totally backwards. If anything, printed materials are more discriminatory as they can’t be zoomed in, have the fonts changed or the colours/lighting adjusted to suit the reader, which is something a digital version can. There’s even apps and online services that will read digital text out for visually impaired readers. Digital material makes things much more accessible for visually impaired readers.

Edited August 24, 2022 by MARK0SIAN

[Halandaar]

Yeah, the "digital discriminates against visually impaired" comment was a total  moment for me too. How many hardbook books have colourblindness options and zoom functions? Baffling.

[Lexington]

Asking if all-digital rulebooks are acceptable in 2022 feels...uh...a bit odd to me. Can't remember the last time I brought a physical book to a game table for anything. Electronic copies of nearly all GW books are easily available if you know where to look, and every non-GW game I play has long since switched to electronic rulebooks and apps for in-game rules reference.

I think the question is much more "in an age of widespread smart devices, how long can GW keep rules gated behind physical rulebooks before it becomes a Problem"?

[Special Officer Doofy]

With the amount of people that are concerned about global warming, climate change and thinking GW should be the one responsible for recycling their plastic, you would think those same people would be pushing for digital rules more for a more sustainable and environmentally friendly way of distributing rules that get outdated as early as on release to maybe making it 3-4 years.

[Evil Eye]

Ironically enough, digital hosting is probably more environmentally damaging than paper production. Books, once created, require no electricity to maintain and if necessary are recyclable. Servers hosting data meanwhile require a HUGE amount of electricity to keep up and running.

Of course distributing free PDFs that people can download takes far LESS server space and electricity than hosting the cloud data for an app, but the point stands.

[Special Officer Doofy]

35 minutes ago, Evil Eye said:

Ironically enough, digital hosting is probably more environmentally damaging than paper production. Books, once created, require no electricity to maintain and if necessary are recyclable. Servers hosting data meanwhile require a HUGE amount of electricity to keep up and running.

Of course distributing free PDFs that people can download takes far LESS server space and electricity than hosting the cloud data for an app, but the point stands.

Hard disagree. We are talking about hosting a server to download rules for 40k, that's a very limited customer base when compared to something like the Apple store or amazon. When you factor in the manufacturing energy used, transportation and storage, not to mention the tree removal for the paper, the books will consume more energy. I say this as someone who has a masters in electrical engineering and has worked in manufacturing his whole life.

Edited August 24, 2022 by Putrid Choir

[Noserenda]

Thats come up before, physical books only have a smaller carbon footprint if you arent reading very much. The more you read, especially from the same place, the more efficient the server is compared to repeatedly making new books, especially if you already own the devices you read them on for other purposes.

From (slightly vague) memory it overtakes on half a dozen textbooks, not sure if hardbacks are less green though it feels like they are? But certainly someone buying all the books as they come out is going to have been a lot more efficient doing it via ebook, with a sliding scale down to someone who only buys for one army probably doing better with paper.
 

[Special Officer Doofy]

Alot of the studies of digital vs paper (when it comes to books) include the reading device, which factors in the minerals mined and more which skew the end results. Theses studies are outdated as most people in first world countries have access to smart phones and other devices that they use for other productivity which can pretty much remove their cost from the equation. Also the longevity of the book factors into the equation too. Resale and multiple readers greatly improves the effeciency of paper books, but that doesn't apply to 40k codex and rule books that have a 3 year life span and generally one owner.