Raven Guard Decapitation Strike 3k

[Mandragola]

I've been mucking about with lists for my Raven Guard. I'll be taking these guys to the London GT in a frighteningly short time. Keen to get any C+C as I paint stuff in a mad frenzy. I'd definitely prefer not to waste time painting things I'm not going to end up using.

 

Primarch
Corvus Corax		440
HQ
Legion Centurion		120
	Legion Librarian
	Psychic Hood
	Force Staff
Legion Centurion		150
	Legion Chaplain
	Two Raven's Talons
	Corvid Pattern Jump Pack
Elites
Mor Deythan Squad		335
	5 Additional Mor Deythan
	10 Combi-volkites
	Infravisor
Legion Rhino		35
Apothecarion Detachment		90
	Additional Apothecary
Legion Contemptor Dreadnought Talon		225
	Two Gravis Lascannon
	Helical Targeting Array
	Additional Contemptor Dreadnought
	Gravis Melta cannon
	Graviton Gun
	Additional Contemptor Dreadnought
	Gravis Melta cannon
	Graviton Gun
Troops
Legion Tactical Squad		240
	10 Additional Tactical Marines
	Augury Scanner
	Legion Vexilla
	Nuncio Vox
	Artificer Armour
Legion Tactical Squad		240
	10 Additional Tactical Marines
	Augury Scanner
	Legion Vexilla
	Nuncio Vox
	Artificer Armour
Legion Reconnaissance Squad		145
	Nemesis Bolters
	Infravisor
Fast Attack
Dark Fury Squad		335
	5 Additional Dark Furies
	2 Additional Choosers of the Slain
	Melta Bombs for Choosers
Xiphon Interceptor		105
Heavy Support
Legion Predator		150
	Magna-Melta Cannon
	Lascannon Sponsons

Edited August 23, 2022 by Mandragola

[Dont-Be-Haten]

Here's my opinion.

Personally I'm not a fan of 20 strong legion tacticals squads. I think that's too much, I would rather take a second Contemptor in the talon or take a sicaran over a predator. There's also no reason to not take a jump pack on one of your apothecaries to keep with with your Dark Furies, and give them added protection. 

Artificer armor is also a points sink if you aren't going to give your sergeant a weapon. Even if you're just wanting it to tank wounds. With no weapon upgrades the sergeant doesn't need to accept or tank challenges seems like a waste of 20 points.

I think the chaplain upgrade is also a waste in a decapitation strike, a cheap overwatch soaker, or even a vigilator would be better options to help with pinning tests. 

I don't love the Xiphon, I'd rather just make room for more Dark Furies. 20 is definitely a sweet spot imo.

Edit: overall I think the list is quite good and well balanced, my thoughts are just the changes I would personally try to make. 

Edited August 23, 2022 by Dont-Be-Haten

[Mandragola]

Those are useful thoughts, thanks.

I can certainly see a case for breaking down the tactical squads a bit, to get more scoring units if nothing else. Maybe I should go with something like 3x15 and drop the snipers. The Artificer armour is there to try and protect against AP3 shooting rather than melee really.

Good point on the Chaplain. I think there will be times when full rerolls will be valuable but often just fielding more bodies will be better. I think I'd either take a Chaplain or nobody, as the unit already hits hard enough. I'm a bit concerned about running into WS5 things (notably contemptors) and not being able to hit, but Corax won't really struggle.

The Predator is partly there because I've built one. I think it gives very respectable firepower for its cost. Maybe I ought to be trying to get something a bit more killy with my one HS slot. It's efficient I think in terms of points but not hugely powerful, and having just one tank means it's unlikely to last long. It would be good to have a way of stopping a Spartan early on but maybe I should just accept that I can't really do that and soak the charge on something.

I do have three contemptors in the talon: one with quad las and the others with melta, grav and fist. I've built the quad-las guy, the AoD one is on his sprues awating one of the nice chest bits from the full kit, which is in the post.

An Apothecary to join the Dark Furies is a tough call and one that I've gone back and forth on. Annoyingly, he can't have a proper RG jump pack though as the upgrade is only available to ICs. It would be annoying to have him slow down the whole unit, particularly taking an inch off their charge distances. I guess I could look at taking a PM instead of the Chaplain. I actually expect to use the RG advanced reaction fairly often if these guys get shot at (though obviously only once) so quite often I think I'll have shrouding, meaning FNP would be a bit wasted.

Rather than a second unit of Dark Furies I might look at a squad of deliverers. I'm not sure if this is a great idea but they'd be useful for deep striking and far tankier. That said, 5 of them with a few pairs of claws, a multimelta and chainfist cost almost as much as 10 Dark Furies, who are also able to deep strike.

I think the Xiphon is pretty good for 105 points. I'd love to see a FAQ to let it fire at full effect when it does its CAP intercept trick, as currently it can only snap fire (it's not the shooting phase). I think a flyer is a more reasonable pick in a list with a Telepath Librarian, who can tell enemy contemptors not to react to its arrival.

Here's a revised list, taking on some of your feedback

Rite of War: Decapitation Strike
Primarch
Corvus Corax		440
HQ
Legion Centurion		60
	Legion Librarian	45
	Psychic Hood	15
	Force Sword	0
Elites
Mor Deythan Squad		150
	5 Additional Mor Deythan	125
	10 Combi-volkites	50
	Infravisor	10
Legion Rhino		35
	Searchlights	5
	Multi-melta	30
Apothecarion Detachment		45
	2 Additional Apothecaries	90
Legion Contemptor Dreadnought Talon		175
	Two Gravis Lascannon	40
	Helical Targeting Array	10
	Additional Contemptor Dreadnought	175
	Gravis Melta cannon	5
	Graviton Gun	15
	Additional Contemptor Dreadnought	175
	Gravis Melta cannon	5
	Graviton Gun	15
Raven Guard Deliverers Squad		225
	Four pairs of Raven's Talons	40
	Multimelta	25
	Chainfist	15
Troops
Legion Tactical Squad		100
	5 Additional Tactical Marines	50
	Augury Scanner	10
	Legion Vexilla	10
	Nuncio Vox	10
Legion Tactical Squad		100
	5 Additional Tactical Marines	50
	Augury Scanner	10
	Legion Vexilla	10
	Nuncio Vox	10
Legion Tactical Squad		100
	5 Additional Tactical Marines	50
	Augury Scanner	10
	Legion Vexilla	10
	Nuncio Vox	10
Fast Attack
Dark Fury Squad		150
	5 Additional Dark Furies	125
	2 Additional Choosers of the Slain	30
	Melta Bombs for Choosers	30
Xiphon Interceptor		105

[Dont-Be-Haten]

You would want the Apothecary for times when the unit opposing unit has ignore cover, eliminating the 4+++ through shrouded. Of the RG players I've watched they always take the apothecary to help tank cover ignoring powers, while keeping the shrouded for weapons that ignore FnP rolls.

[Mandragola]

On balance the apothecary probably is a good pick. It's a bit annoying he can't have a "proper" jump pack but I suppose I can live with that.

Also annoyingly, I've found that I have a work thing the weekend of the LGT so I won't actually be able to go! I should be able to get to the Titanicus event on the Friday, luckily. Oh well. I'll keep working on my Raven Guard but with rather less urgency, and look for other opportunities to field them.

[Dont-Be-Haten]

13 minutes ago, Mandragola said:

On balance the apothecary probably is a good pick. It's a bit annoying he can't have a "proper" jump pack but I suppose I can live with that.

Also annoyingly, I've found that I have a work thing the weekend of the LGT so I won't actually be able to go! I should be able to get to the Titanicus event on the Friday, luckily. Oh well. I'll keep working on my Raven Guard but with rather less urgency, and look for other opportunities to field them.

I feel that. I've got 5 months to have my Decapitation strike finished. I may also ally in a Knight formation to finish my 4,000 points. I haven't decided yet though.

[WrathOfTheLion]

I'm finishing up some Dark Furies myself for Decapitation Strike eventually, along with a Rhino (one of my last of the resin ones to be painted ) and a drop pod.

[TheNineteenth]

Man, my take on Decapitation Strike is really going to have change (it was my original list build going back to 6ed40k era). Running it without Alvarex Maun and Drop Pods is so weird. I'd really gotten into putting Alvarex with a :cuss: Team of 5 or more Men.

Ironically, some of the earliest units I built, like mk4 Recon as Mor Deythan (before they got models) are actually pretty useful as Mor Deythan or Recon Snipers now.

I guess I should probably build the Dark Furys I have hoarded? They sound like the new hotness/bandwagon unit?

[Lord Krungharr]

Is it worth the 10 extra points to upgrade a pair of lightning claws to Raven Talons just for the Rend 5+ instead of 6+?  I saw last night when reviewing weapon rules the lightning claws also give +2 attacks for a pair rather than +1.

Infravisors for the +1 BS seems worth it though.

Finally got some torsos for my Dark Furies (Prosecutor ones from Age of Sigmar).  Glad to see the Raven Guard are being played by many!

Edited August 29, 2022 by Lord Krungharr

[Eternal Despair]

At the end of the day it depends on the unit taking the upgrade but the rend 5+ effectively doubles the amount of ap2 wounds vs a generic lightning claw which is a nice bonus when fighting dreads due to rending auto wounding and terminators due to the increased number of ap2 attacks. Would I do it for a tac sergeant? maybe if I had the spare points lying around, on terminators or consuls I would definitely try and find the points to upgrade to the ravens talons

[Mandragola]

6 hours ago, Lord Krungharr said:

Is it worth the 10 extra points to upgrade a pair of lightning claws to Raven Talons just for the Rend 5+ instead of 6+?  I saw last night when reviewing weapon rules the lightning claws also give +2 attacks for a pair rather than +1.

I think rending 5+ is worth quite a lot when combined with shred - which lightning claws of all types have. Talons end up with a 5/9 chance of rending tough targets whereas normal claws are at 11/36 (a bit worse than 1/3).

What this means in effect is that models with raven’s talons are armed with AP2 weapons that will wound even a Leviathan more than half the time, striking at I5 when charging. And as it happens Mor Deythan do something quite similar, with rending 4+ on 4 shots each from their combi-volkites, but only once per game. 

Dark furies seem great. I’m actually not sure the 10 in my list are enough. Moe would certainly be great, though I only own 10. 

[Dont-Be-Haten]

@Mandragola we don't have anything that offers I5 on the charge in the current rule set that i recall. Possibly a hangover from 1.0?

Raven Talon's on tactical sergeants are probably not worth it. You're better off taking melta bombs for dreads. Claws are thematically cool, but a power sword and bolt pistol is going to go farther because it offers an additional attack and is better for sergeant on sergeant challenges, unless of course you're taking artificer armor. 

I like tactical claws on chain bayonet bolters for consistency of shred on the charge.

Everything else is pretty accurate though.

[Eternal Despair]

1 hour ago, Dont-Be-Haten said:

@Mandragola we don't have anything that offers I5 on the charge in the current rule set that i recall. Possibly a hangover from 1.0?

Both praetors and centurions (including consuls) of all types are initiative 5

[Varyn]

The list looks decent, I only have a couple of suggestions or changes to consider:

- As mentioned by DBH, artificer armour on sergeants is a double edged sword in 2.0, with the reduction in leadership and the importance of passing pinning/morale checks, you potentially don't want your sergeant tanking shots

- I think that the Deliverers are a great addition to the list, yes they are quite expensive vs Dark Fury's, but they are WS5 and have an invulnerable save 

- I think the multi-melta on the rhino is rather expensive and almost doubles the cost of the transport, given that it is the only 'tank' in the list, you may find it gets wrecked before it can shoot

- I don't think the augury scanners are worthwhile on the tactical squads, those 15 bolter shots aren't likely to make much difference

- If you drop the rhino multi-melta & searchlight, reduce one tactical squad to 10 and drop 1 dark fury, that would free up 140 points, you could then break down more of your tactical squads into 10 man units and put them into rhinos to give them more protection/mobility or use the 140 points for a heavy support choice e.g. laser vindicator, heavy support squad

 

 

[Mandragola]

On the I5 thing, Dark Furies have Sudden Strike(1). This increases their initiative to 5 when they charge, unless it's disordered. Dark Furies really are mean.

You're probably right about the rhino's multimelta. In all honesty I find myself questioning the Mor Deythan squad. It's devastating against the right target but I'm not sure it'll get to actually fire off its rending volley all that often. I think Dark Furies might be more able to do their thing more than once. I've only got five Mor Deythan at the moment and haven't made them combi-volkites yet, though I have the bits. Maybe my time would be better spent on more Dark Furies.

I do think augury scanners are useful. The squads I'll be setting up have infiltrate themselves so can hopefully deny lots of the board to the enemy. I actually might not infiltrate one unit, to prevent enemy infiltrators blocking my own. And it isn't just 15 shots that a tactical squad fires on interceptor - it's 30 or 45, as they always get to use fury of the Legion.

Edited August 30, 2022 by Mandragola

[Dont-Be-Haten]

That's right. I forgot about Sudden Strike being the new Furious Charge light. Good catch, dark furies are so good!

[Varyn]

I’ve just read the FotL rule and interceptor and I didn’t realise that you can use FotL with interceptor, although I assume you wouldn’t be able to move in the movement phase of the previous turn in order to fulfil the FotL criteria.

Definitely makes augury scanners worth a look for tactical marines. 

I see your point on Mor Deythan, it feels like a more work to line up their special gimmick, whereas Dark Fury’s are likely to get work done more consistently. I haven’t got any Mor Deythan yet and I’m struggling to convince myself that they’re worthwhile.

My only concern with Dark Fury’s is WS4, but if you have a big enough unit and enough choosers you should clean up the enemy unit at initiative step 5! 

 

[Biscuittzz]

Is there any difference between 'any deepstrike' and 'any deepstrike he is apart of' as the first is what a warlord with the hidden hand trait gets compared to the coordinated planetstrike that Maun gets. I still think either have a place in decap lists.

Minimum of 10 Dark Furies is a must in my opinion. 5 Mor Deythan too. Spending too much on tacticals is a pitfall I think - decap lists basically strike hard and fast and win or lose in the first few turns. 

What do people think of fliers? I'm trying to squeeze my fire raptor and 2 storm eagle into a decap list. Probably better as Angels Wrath in fairness.

[Mandragola]

I don't think decap armies necessarily have to be all about alpha strikes. Even if that were the case, I think it's necessary to have some scoring units around. I'm a big fan of tactical squads that can infiltrate, then scout, then fire 45 bolter shots at things. They're fairly cheap, tough and dangerous.

I think my basic approach is likely to be to have the tacticals in the mid-board with dark furies, contemptors and the like advancing behind them. People might charge my tacticals but doing that will result in them getting hit by Corax and his friends in my following turn.

Another unit I'm considering is a power-armoured command squad, probably with a Praetor. I don't currently have a great place to put my Librarian but this would be a good option for that. Or of course I could give him a jump pack and send him with Corax and co.

On the subject of fliers I think I'd go for Angel's Wrath if I had two storm Eagles and a Fire Raptor. The ability to have them all show up on T1 is pretty awesome. You'd still be able to deep strike as many dark furies as you wanted, but not much else. Deliverers would have to be in flyers according to those restrictions. Overall Angel's Wrath doesn't make too much sense for Raven Guard to me, as you lose the ability to infiltrate - which is kind of our key feature. So I'd honestly recommend leaving some of the planes alone.

I hadn't looked that much at the actual warlord traits because I'm taking Corax, with his fixed one. The Hidden Hand lets you reroll all reserves, while Alvarex Maun only lets you reroll for the deep strike he's part of. As such he'd be no help with flyers unless they were deep striking along with him. The Hidden Hand Warlord could be in any kind of reserve (including outflank or whatever) and allow you to reroll deliverer deep strikes, javelins outflanking, planes zooming on and whatever else you wanted.

[Dont-Be-Haten]

It's amazing how fast we run out of points//slots in a Decap list. I've been personally leaning hard on increasing my Line troop options. I think events that use continuous round scoring will be more important, and by saying that I feel like if we are going to strictly take tacticals, even with a 5++ 4++ on objectives it may be more difficult to reach those areas without jump infantry or a rhino to try and crash the opposing line units off an objective, especially in an opponent's deployment zone. Legion Tacticals are going to be very difficult to shift and I believe it may be prudent to get some FnP denying ranged weapons. or at bare minimum more close range support like deliverers with fists/chainfists to counter both dreads and tactical heavy lists.
 

After looking back over your list, that's one thing that's come to mind; More snipers to take out Apothecaries, or more S8+ to deal with the FnP rolls.

[Dont-Be-Haten]

So, Chaplains are so good. After playing more games, Decap is meh, but Chaplains are absolutely brutal.

[Mandragola]

It’s interesting to think that the best Rite of War you could take might well be “none”. I feel like the restrictions often outweigh the benefits. 

That said, there aren’t many HS choices I’d feel like I really want as Ravenguard. In particular, heavy support squads aren’t great as they can’t infiltrate and don’t get shrouding, so they’re just kind of there. So in this case Decap strike doesn’t feel like such a huge loss. 

It’s difficult to build in enough anti tank though. There are some decent options like dreadnoughts and Javelins but they don’t have the firepower that HS squads and the proper tanks bring. 

[Dont-Be-Haten]

4 hours ago, Mandragola said:

It’s interesting to think that the best Rite of War you could take might well be “none”. I feel like the restrictions often outweigh the benefits. 

That said, there aren’t many HS choices I’d feel like I really want as Ravenguard. In particular, heavy support squads aren’t great as they can’t infiltrate and don’t get shrouding, so they’re just kind of there. So in this case Decap strike doesn’t feel like such a huge loss. 

It’s difficult to build in enough anti tank though. There are some decent options like dreadnoughts and Javelins but they don’t have the firepower that HS squads and the proper tanks bring. 

For my single heavy support I'm taking a Kratos Squadron. 1-2 amazing tanks that put out a ton of fire work well in the theme that it is a distraction carnifex while the rest odf the army infiltrates into the back lines. But Leviathan Dreads are a solid option for heavy slots also.

But honestly Decap is not worth it unless your opponent brings 2 or more independent characters and even then it's not as utilizing as you would think. 

Edited September 18, 2022 by Dont-Be-Haten

[MichaelCarmine]

On 9/18/2022 at 2:20 PM, Dont-Be-Haten said:

For my single heavy support I'm taking a Kratos Squadron. 1-2 amazing tanks that put out a ton of fire work well in the theme that it is a distraction carnifex while the rest odf the army infiltrates into the back lines. But Leviathan Dreads are a solid option for heavy slots also.

But honestly Decap is not worth it unless your opponent brings 2 or more independent characters and even then it's not as utilizing as you would think. 

Decap is one of, if not THE best RoWs out there, despite losing the option to give everyone and their mother a DropPod. 

If you are the first player, then the 5+Shroud bonus your Deep Strikers/Flankers receive lasts until the end of the opposite players Turn, since it lasts for the GameTurn and not PlayerTurn. That can be really massive! Getting a minimum of 3VPs for a Warlord Kill is also a very big deal, and often easier to get than you think, thanks to Preffered Enemy for even your Dreadnoughts!

About 25 Games in, i've yet to loose a game in HH2.0. Most of the time, the Game is over by the (nearly guaranteed) arrival of my Deep Strikers (thanks to Hidden Hand) in Turn two.

Most of the Times, the Strike consists of a unit of Dark Furies, a Unit of Deliverers and an Assault Squad. With Dreadnoughts, Tac Supports and Tacticals holding out on the Ground

[Dont-Be-Haten]

10 hours ago, MichaelCarmine said:

Decap is one of, if not THE best RoWs out there, despite losing the option to give everyone and their mother a DropPod. 

If you are the first player, then the 5+Shroud bonus your Deep Strikers/Flankers receive lasts until the end of the opposite players Turn, since it lasts for the GameTurn and not PlayerTurn. That can be really massive! Getting a minimum of 3VPs for a Warlord Kill is also a very big deal, and often easier to get than you think, thanks to Preffered Enemy for even your Dreadnoughts!

About 25 Games in, i've yet to loose a game in HH2.0. Most of the time, the Game is over by the (nearly guaranteed) arrival of my Deep Strikers (thanks to Hidden Hand) in Turn two.

Most of the Times, the Strike consists of a unit of Dark Furies, a Unit of Deliverers and an Assault Squad. With Dreadnoughts, Tac Supports and Tacticals holding out on the Ground

Assuming you get first turn. When half your opponent's have ignore cover shroud does nothing. But good to see you've been successful. I guess it just depends on your meta and how good you are at sniping out peskiness.