Raven Guard Decapitation Strike 3k

[MichaelCarmine]

6 hours ago, Dont-Be-Haten said:

Assuming you get first turn. When half your opponent's have ignore cover shroud does nothing. But good to see you've been successful. I guess it just depends on your meta and how good you are at sniping out peskiness.

Even if you don't get first turn, the bonus lasts for 3 Phases, more then most other (like Abaddons shroud-bonus).

If i may ask, what are you usually playing against, that half your opponents army ignores cover? The only things, that come to my mind right away, that ignore shrouding, are units with helical targeting array, Salamanders (through heavy use of Template Weapons), Nightlords, or other Raven Guard (Infravisor).

So that would make up 2(3) out of 18 Legions, and some dreadnoughts - though i've yet to see wide use of Helical Dreads in games and Batreps, i seem to be the only one making use of it with my Boxnought.

Played against 2 Salamanders so far, i simply dropped my JumpTroops (Deliverers just don't care thanks to 2+ and heavy) outside of 8" to not get Flamed on arrival and thanks to my HiddenHand WL and the JumpPacks you get a 3"(4") charge bonus, so you should get into Combat. A Librarian then negates up to two Reactions in the Assault Phase. 

Edited September 20, 2022 by MichaelCarmine

[Claws and Effect]

Couple things: 

Night Lords with Preysight get Night Vision, which ignores Shrouded. And they can take it on nearly everything. 

I'm not sold on Dark Furies yet. I can see them folding pretty quick against any dedicated melee unit that has WS5. The majority WS4 means they'll be hitting on 3s and probably cutting right through power armor. Maybe if you run a Chaplain with them to get them rerolls on the charge to get more 5s. They seem great for picking on Tac squads, but anything that's actually a melee threat should paste them fairly easily. 

I haven't been doing great in HH2.0. I'm pretty sure my dice just hate me, because my list building is at least solid. 

Edited September 20, 2022 by Claws and Effect

[MichaelCarmine]

3 hours ago, Claws and Effect said:

Couple things: 

Night Lords with Preysight get Night Vision, which ignores Shrouded. And they can take it on nearly everything. 

I'm not sold on Dark Furies yet. I can see them folding pretty quick against any dedicated melee unit that has WS5. The majority WS4 means they'll be hitting on 3s and probably cutting right through power armor. Maybe if you run a Chaplain with them to get them rerolls on the charge to get more 5s. They seem great for picking on Tac squads, but anything that's actually a melee threat should paste them fairly easily. 

I haven't been doing great in HH2.0. I'm pretty sure my dice just hate me, because my list building is at least solid. 

Yes, Nightlords, as i mentioned  =]

That's 1 out of 18 Legions, which as a whole, really can negate one of your RoW bonuses. Others you can outmaneuver.

 

Dark Furies are dirt Cheap, for what they can do.

WS4 being a bummer, they bring a weigth of attacks, 5-6 a person when attacking. I often run them with a Chaplain, so that WS4 isn't a problem.

What i've noticed, that most people overlook, is their Precision Strike (6+), with ini 5, they can so easily manage enemy charackters/special weapons. So good in fact, that you don't even want to challenge in most cases. They rip through Dreadnoughts like a hot knive through butter, are frightingly fast and with 2 wounds each and up to (always!) 3 artificer armors relatively tanky for a jump unit.

So far i've only had problems against elite Terminator units, though they mostly numbered 8-10 models and therefore twice as expensive. Even then i managed to whittle them down to about 1 or 2 models in the worst case. Weight of attacks my friend! =] 

EDIT: haven't got the opportunity to fight Phalanx warders though - i think, they're gonna get the upperhand on pretty much anything in CC, even Dark Furies, Knights Cenobium, Suzeiran...

Edited September 20, 2022 by MichaelCarmine

[Claws and Effect]

Don't augury scanners also ignore Shrouded? 

I seem to recall either them or nuncio-voxes ignoring it. I'm a couple hundred miles from my books at the moment so I can't verify. If augury scanners do ignore it that's something available to everyone equally that almost everyone takes multiples of. 

[Varyn]

Augury scanners don’t ignore shrouded, they allow you to ignore the 24” range limitation on shooting attacks during night fighting and you can’t infiltrate within 18”.
 

Nuncio vox’s ignore the -1 Ld penalty from night fighting 

[Dont-Be-Haten]

The toughest out is,

Iron Warriors with Master of Signals in Lascannon heavy support squads, helical arrays on contemptors & deredeos, Perturabo, Haywire, tyrant siege terminators with omniscopes followed by strong counter melee units with Toxin bombs or the rock-em-sock-em robots.

It does get a bit easier from there, but almost every single player I have played against brings a Master of Signals and pairs him with an Apothecary in either a 10 man heavy support squad with lascannons or a 10 man tactical support squad with either plasma or melta.

Be it Ultramarines, Imperial Fists, Sons of Horus, or Dark Angels.

Edit: Those are just the most recent armies I've played against. I have won more than lost, with 2 draws. I'm currently 5 - 3 - 2. But that's also with learning the rules and missions at varying point levels. At 2,000 + I'm 2 - 1 - 0.

Edited September 21, 2022 by Dont-Be-Haten

[MichaelCarmine]

7 hours ago, Dont-Be-Haten said:

The toughest out is,

Iron Warriors with Master of Signals in Lascannon heavy support squads, helical arrays on contemptors & deredeos, Perturabo, Haywire, tyrant siege terminators with omniscopes followed by strong counter melee units with Toxin bombs or the rock-em-sock-em robots.

It does get a bit easier from there, but almost every single player I have played against brings a Master of Signals and pairs him with an Apothecary in either a 10 man heavy support squad with lascannons or a 10 man tactical support squad with either plasma or melta.

Be it Ultramarines, Imperial Fists, Sons of Horus, or Dark Angels.

Edit: Those are just the most recent armies I've played against. I have won more than lost, with 2 draws. I'm currently 5 - 3 - 2. But that's also with learning the rules and missions at varying point levels. At 2,000 + I'm 2 - 1 - 0.

For those games i bring Nex, he makes short work, should a Master of Signals poke it's head out. Hitting and wounding on 2s with PE gets you 4 wounds on the master, which should statistically get the job done, even with apo. I might loose him that way to Return Fire, but should that be the case, than the HSS will have a hard time. =]

Other than that, Iron Warriors are, well, Iron Warriors. They are shooty.

But even against tyrants, furies have 3 models with a 2up and 5+ shroud - so good chances for survival. And Deliverers just laugh at them.

The only thing, that i caution against with deliverers are leviathans. Because of the obvious xD

[Dont-Be-Haten]

Shroud doesnt work against siege tyrants because they have night fighting. Night fighting ignores shroud mitigation rolls.

Usually the Master of Signals stays hidden either behind a rhino or LoS blocking terrain so you can only do precision shots against the models you can see; at least that's how we've been playing it. That could be wrong.

There is also bubble wrapping tacticals and tactical support squads to stagger your deepstrike and get countered by Robots with Haywire, even if you get the pen off from deepstrike that MoS gives you a 50% chance to disorder your assault. It's really disgusting how good that dude is.

I've been throwing volkite and snipers intooS squads to whittle them down, but it can be very difficult to drop, especially in the early game.

We don't play a lot of named characters outside of Primarchs. I may give the legacy guys a shot once they get official models. They only come out in bigger games, same with Primarchs. If I'm playing a named character I'm bringing Corax above any other.

Games have been fun though

[Mandragola]

Here's a potential list I might run. Unusually, there's no rite of war attached to this one. I think I'd rather have a Chaplain and Librarian as my HQs and that leaves me with no Master of the Legion unless I bring Corax - which this list doesn't. Instead it features the Warhound I'm currently working on building. Because of that I'm adding in some more vehicles.

I'm honestly not completely convinced by the list. It seems like it might work though and it represents a lot of models that I own, and have in some cases even constructed. I think it has a reasonable balance of shooting and a bit of melee, which the Warhound can pitch in with if needed.

The Warhound is currently built with plasma and VMB. I've magnetised them though. Turbo lasers look annoyingly tempting now that they've been FAQ'd.

I'm not at all sure what warlord trait to go for. Hidden hand is ok but I don't actually plan on deep striking much. Bane of tyrants is cool but there's a reason he's in a unit with multiple other characters, and it isn't so he can be risked in challenges himself.

No Rite of War
HQ
Legion Centurion (Warlord)		150
	Legion Chaplain
	Two Raven's Talons
	Corvid Pattern Jump Pack
Legion Centurion		150
	Legion Librarian
	Psychic Hood
	Force Staff
	Corvid Pattern Jump Pack
Elites
Apothecarion Detachment		90
	Additional Apothecary
Legion Contemptor Dreadnought Talon		440
	Two Gravis Lascannon
	Helical Targeting Array
	Additional Contemptor Dreadnought
	Gravis Chainfist
	2 Melta Guns
Troops
Legion Tactical Squad		240
	10 Additional Tactical Marines
	Augury Scanner
	Legion Vexilla
	Nuncio Vox
	Artificer Armour
Legion Tactical Squad		240
	10 Additional Tactical Marines
	Augury Scanner
	Legion Vexilla
	Nuncio Vox
	Artificer Armour
Legion Reconnaissance Squad		145
	Nemesis Bolters
	Infravisor
Fast Attack
Dark Fury Squad		335
	5 Additional Dark Furies
	2 Additional Choosers of the Slain
	Melta Bombs for Choosers
Heavy Support
Legion Predator		150
	Magna-Melta Cannon
	Lascannon Sponsons
Legion Predator		150
	Magna-Melta Cannon
	Lascannon Sponsons
Legion Predator		150
	Magna-Melta Cannon
	Lascannon Sponsons
Lord of War
Warhound Titan		750

 

[MichaelCarmine]

15 hours ago, Dont-Be-Haten said:

Shroud doesnt work against siege tyrants because they have night fighting. Night fighting ignores shroud mitigation rolls.

Usually the Master of Signals stays hidden either behind a rhino or LoS blocking terrain so you can only do precision shots against the models you can see; at least that's how we've been playing it. That could be wrong.

There is also bubble wrapping tacticals and tactical support squads to stagger your deepstrike and get countered by Robots with Haywire, even if you get the pen off from deepstrike that MoS gives you a 50% chance to disorder your assault. It's really disgusting how good that dude is.

I've been throwing volkite and snipers intooS squads to whittle them down, but it can be very difficult to drop, especially in the early game.

We don't play a lot of named characters outside of Primarchs. I may give the legacy guys a shot once they get official models. They only come out in bigger games, same with Primarchs. If I'm playing a named character I'm bringing Corax above any other.

Games have been fun though

Tyrants don't ignore shroud - they ignore the effects of Night Fighting, that is not the same as having Night Vision. So you do get shroud against them!

You can place Kaedes anywhere on the battlefield if in area terrain, even up to 1" from enemy models. Or up to 9" in open terrain. since he does not "infiltrate" he can even charge turn one.

And that combined with a 14" movement, that is not slowed down/hindered by any kind of terrain, getting a shot at your target shouldn't be the problem ^^

You should reslly try him out! =]

[MichaelCarmine]

2 hours ago, Mandragola said:

Here's a potential list I might run. Unusually, there's no rite of war attached to this one. I think I'd rather have a Chaplain and Librarian as my HQs and that leaves me with no Master of the Legion unless I bring Corax - which this list doesn't. Instead it features the Warhound I'm currently working on building. Because of that I'm adding in some more vehicles.

I'm honestly not completely convinced by the list. It seems like it might work though and it represents a lot of models that I own, and have in some cases even constructed. I think it has a reasonable balance of shooting and a bit of melee, which the Warhound can pitch in with if needed.

The Warhound is currently built with plasma and VMB. I've magnetised them though. Turbo lasers look annoyingly tempting now that they've been FAQ'd.

I'm not at all sure what warlord trait to go for. Hidden hand is ok but I don't actually plan on deep striking much. Bane of tyrants is cool but there's a reason he's in a unit with multiple other characters, and it isn't so he can be risked in challenges himself.

No Rite of War
HQ
Legion Centurion (Warlord)		150
	Legion Chaplain
	Two Raven's Talons
	Corvid Pattern Jump Pack
Legion Centurion		150
	Legion Librarian
	Psychic Hood
	Force Staff
	Corvid Pattern Jump Pack
Elites
Apothecarion Detachment		90
	Additional Apothecary
Legion Contemptor Dreadnought Talon		440
	Two Gravis Lascannon
	Helical Targeting Array
	Additional Contemptor Dreadnought
	Gravis Chainfist
	2 Melta Guns
Troops
Legion Tactical Squad		240
	10 Additional Tactical Marines
	Augury Scanner
	Legion Vexilla
	Nuncio Vox
	Artificer Armour
Legion Tactical Squad		240
	10 Additional Tactical Marines
	Augury Scanner
	Legion Vexilla
	Nuncio Vox
	Artificer Armour
Legion Reconnaissance Squad		145
	Nemesis Bolters
	Infravisor
Fast Attack
Dark Fury Squad		335
	5 Additional Dark Furies
	2 Additional Choosers of the Slain
	Melta Bombs for Choosers
Heavy Support
Legion Predator		150
	Magna-Melta Cannon
	Lascannon Sponsons
Legion Predator		150
	Magna-Melta Cannon
	Lascannon Sponsons
Legion Predator		150
	Magna-Melta Cannon
	Lascannon Sponsons
Lord of War
Warhound Titan		750

 

You do know, that you are allowed to field 3 HQs? =]

[Mandragola]

19 minutes ago, MichaelCarmine said:

You do know, that you are allowed to field 3 HQs? =]

Yeah but the man makes me pay points for them. It sucks. 

[MichaelCarmine]

15 minutes ago, Mandragola said:

Yeah but the man makes me pay points for them. It sucks. 

A cheap delegatus costs you 85pts, you could trim the Tacticals down a bit to make some room. 15 tacs with an apo on a objective are hard enough to shoot down, i'd think.

[Dont-Be-Haten]

1 hour ago, MichaelCarmine said:

Tyrants don't ignore shroud - they ignore the effects of Night Fighting, that is not the same as having Night Vision. So you do get shroud against them!

You can place Kaedes anywhere on the battlefield if in area terrain, even up to 1" from enemy models. Or up to 9" in open terrain. since he does not "infiltrate" he can even charge turn one.

And that combined with a 14" movement, that is not slowed down/hindered by any kind of terrain, getting a shot at your target shouldn't be the problem ^^

You should reslly try him out! =]

I'll have to go back and look, but last time I checked ignorintlg night fighting carried over to ignore shroud and shroud bombs.

Edit: I don't play with IW, just against them, so I'm probably wrong, you're probably right.

Edited September 22, 2022 by Dont-Be-Haten

[Claws and Effect]

5 hours ago, Dont-Be-Haten said:

I'll have to go back and look, but last time I checked ignorintlg night fighting carried over to ignore shroud and shroud bombs.

Edit: I don't play with IW, just against them, so I'm probably wrong, you're probably right.

Ignoring Night Fighting and having Night Vision are not necessarily the same thing. 

[Dont-Be-Haten]

Edit: I see now about the omniscopes I will let my friend know he's playing that one wrong.

@Mandragola I would almost just take one of the generic War Lord Traits instead, I like Stoic Defender for more forced pinning tests. Maybe bloody-handed for the Additional +1 to combat attrition if you aren't wanting to challenge out things.

I run Bane of Tyrants for when I need to accept challenges against non-instant death weapons on characters, or against WS 5 consuls. I have definitely learned that paragon blades aren't good against other Praetors because they only instant kill on a 5+ and you only have like a 40% chance to wound that 4++/5+++ unless you roll hot. Then if at initiative 1 with fists it's a gamble of forcing multiple saves, from the extra attacks. But it's usually a double-kill in which case you want the additional attacks to make up for loosing your warlord so you can win by more in melee.

Edited September 23, 2022 by Dont-Be-Haten
Keep from double post

[Varyn]

The only thing that removes shrouded damage mitigation is attacks with the Ignores Cover special rule. It’s funny how often that people get rules wrong when it ends up benefitting their army!

[Varyn]

Also, Paragon blades cause instant death on a 6 not 5+

I personally run a paragon blade and power fist on my praetor so I can pick the weapon for the unit I’m fighting, plus an extra attack is always useful, especially now that digital lasers have gone 

Edited September 23, 2022 by Varyn

[Dont-Be-Haten]

16 hours ago, Varyn said:

Also, Paragon blades cause instant death on a 6 not 5+

I personally run a paragon blade and power fist on my praetor so I can pick the weapon for the unit I’m fighting, plus an extra attack is always useful, especially now that digital lasers have gone 

Yeah that's Battle Scribes fault.

[TheNineteenth]

On 9/21/2022 at 10:17 PM, Dont-Be-Haten said:

I may give the legacy guys a shot once they get official models.

That pretty obviously is not happening.

[Dont-Be-Haten]

43 minutes ago, TheNineteenth said:

That pretty obviously is not happening.

Who knows. We may get some fun unique characters someday. In any case we usually only play 1 unique character per side at 3k...so I'd rather have Corax than Nex. But could be a lot of fun.

[Claws and Effect]

On 10/7/2022 at 9:18 PM, Dont-Be-Haten said:

Who knows. We may get some fun unique characters someday. In any case we usually only play 1 unique character per side at 3k...so I'd rather have Corax than Nex. But could be a lot of fun.

 

I use Nex religiously in lower points games where Corax is either not an option or too expensive to justify. 

 

The escalation league I'm currently in has a 1 named character rule, and no Primarchs until 2500. I've used him in 3 out of 4 games. 

[Mandragola]

I’ve actually made myself a Kaedes Nex. Here he is with a librarian, both still WIP and neither in my current list (as I think I’d like a jump pack on my librarian, if possible). 
 

 

I've been wondering for a while what the best option for some ranged anti-tank might be for a list like this. My current theory is that Javelins might be the answer. There are shootier options, like predators or Heavy Weapon Squads, but both have problems I think. I'd have to take the Predators in a squadron (I can only have one HS choice) and they'd be my only vehicles, making them vulnerable. The HWS wouldn't be able to infiltrate and would be fairly easy to shoot dead - albeit not without them returning fire.

 

Javelins are mobile, much tougher than the HWS (against most things, not everything) and don't cost much more than a lascannon squad. They do have weaknesses, notably an inability to see in the dark, which the HWS wouldn't be worried by. So I'm not sure they're really best and ideally I'd test things.

 

I've got a vague plan to make Javelins out of Landspeeder Storms. As it happens I've got one with no scouts stuck on, as I used them to make a sniper squad for my Fists. So I'd convert some Mk6 guys to ride on it, including a couple firing lascannons from the back, somehow. And I guess I'd do that three times, if I held my concentration. We'll see!

 

Here's the list anyway (with 5 points spare, irritatingly):

 

Rite of War: Decapitation Strike
Primarch
Corvus Corax		440
HQ
Legion Centurion		150
	Legion Librarian
	Psychic Hood
	Force Staff
	Corvid Pattern Jump Pack
Elites
Apothecarion Detachment		195
	3 Additional Apothecaries
	One has Warhawk Jump Pack
Legion Contemptor Dreadnought Talon		615
	Two Gravis Lascannon
	Helical Targeting Array
	Additional Contemptor Dreadnought
	Gravis Melta cannon
	Graviton Gun
Mor Deythan Squad		335
	5 Additional Mor Deythan
	10 Combi-volkites
	Infravisor
Troops
Legion Tactical Squad		230
	10 Additional Tactical Marines
	Augury Scanner
	Legion Vexilla
	Nuncio Vox
Legion Tactical Squad		230
	10 Additional Tactical Marines
	Augury Scanner
	Legion Vexilla
	Nuncio Vox
Legion Reconnaissance Squad		145
	Nemesis Bolters
	Infravisor
Fast Attack
Dark Fury Squad		335
	5 Additional Dark Furies
	2 Additional Choosers of the Slain
	Melta Bombs for Choosers
Legion Seeker Squad		200
	5 Additional Seekers
	Combi-Disintegrator
	Infravisor
Legion Javelin Squadron		315
	2 Additional Legion Javelins
	Lascannon
	Multimeltas

Edited October 20, 2022 by Mandragola

[Dont-Be-Haten]

What is your meta like?

 

For the 5points give the librarian a Volkite Serpenta/Charger, it would leave you with 3...but 3 isn't 5.

 

This is not my favorite list. I think your previous one is much better and has more teeth (granted it also has a Titan). If you can afford it, I think 2 Deredeos is the best heavy support option for Raven Guard.

 

I havent been able to play test it, but the rewards they bring are absolutely good from every batrep ive watched. I think this list will struggle against AV 14, and flare shields. It's probably going to have a tough match up against Leviathan Talons that anchor the middle of the board also. 

 

I like the Javelins. I think they are a solid investment. I would forgo two 20 man tactical squads. By making one a Despoiler Squad, it allows you to put so much pressure on your opponent. I'd at minimum break one squad up/invest in either a plasma or melta support squad instead.

Edited October 23, 2022 by Dont-Be-Haten

[Mandragola]

I live in London and the meta is mostly guys talking about how narrative they are while building the most competitive lists they can.

 

You make good points about the previous lists. Also, I've got a Warhound Titan, so what am I doing not putting it in my list? That's silliness.

 

I think I'll go back to the drawing board. In principle I think I like the approach of going for shooting rather than melee. I do want to try and fit in stuff like the Seekers and Mor Deythan. That only looks possible if I drop the Dark Furies, which would be kind of an extreme move. I'll give this some thought, though I'm preparing for an AT event this weekend so that's what I'll be spending time on.