Stupid Question: Phoenix Retinue and Dedicated Transport

[sarovian]

Hi folks, quick stupid question for you: 

The Phoenix Terminator entry states: "A Phoenix Terminator Squad numbering no more than five models may take a Legion Land Raider Proteus Carrier as a Dedicated Transport."

And the Phoenix Retinue rule states: "A Phoenix Terminator Squad selected as a Retinue Squad does not use up a Force Organisation slot and is considered part of the same unit as the model selected as its Leader. A Phoenix Terminator Squad selected as a Retinue Squad must be deployed with the model selected as its Leader deployed as part of the unit ..."

Does this mean that a Praetor with Phoenix Retinue cannot select a LR Proteus as a DT, since it's considered to be "the same unit" that now numbers six models? Or, worse, if it's actually considered part of the Praetor unit, does it inherit the Praetor's options for a DT? (i.e. none) Or am I just reading too much into something that's slightly poorly worded? 

 

[GodEmperorOfMankind]

I'd say you can take the DT as long as the retinue squad is no more than 5 models. They've upped the transport capacity of DTs to allow ICs to join squads. LRs capacity is 12, so 6 bulky terminators. 

[Brother_Angelus]

Nothing in the wording of Retinue removes or substitutes upgrade options from the unit. You can still take a dedicated transport and the whole bundle just takes an HQ slot.

[TheNineteenth]

Wow, what a cluster. Good job, Anuj! Clearly this rule was made before the other rules changes that impact it (how Retinues now work), and is completely dead on arrival.

Any competent technical editing or playtesting should have caught this.

[sarovian]

I can see RAI being, obviously, that a Praetor with a 5-man retinue squad can take a Proteus. But I wanted to check if others thought that it definitely isn't RAW. 

[Claws and Effect]

It makes sense if you look at it a little differently. 

When you take a Retinue for a Praetor it states that he cannot voluntarily leave the unit for any reason. That means that the Command Squad is now effectively the unit and the Praetor's presence is irrelevant for the purpose of the Dedicated Transport rule. 

If you look at Alvarex Maun's datasheet, he can take a Storm Eagle as a Dedicated Transport. Which would be really dumb if you couldn't put a unit he's attached to in it with him. A 22 capacity transport for a single character is a complete waste, and clearly not intended to be how it works. 

[Stitch5000]

Given that you need a model with Master of the Legion to take a Rite of War, but some Rites of War dicate who/what your model with Master of the Legion is, I think we can assume that in the army list building state, things are in a somewhat nebulous and malleable state and it only matters if your finalised list is valid. 

[TheNineteenth]

19 hours ago, Claws and Effect said:

It makes sense if you look at it a little differently. 

When you take a Retinue for a Praetor it states that he cannot voluntarily leave the unit for any reason. That means that the Command Squad is now effectively the unit and the Praetor's presence is irrelevant for the purpose of the Dedicated Transport rule. 

If you look at Alvarex Maun's datasheet, he can take a Storm Eagle as a Dedicated Transport. Which would be really dumb if you couldn't put a unit he's attached to in it with him. A 22 capacity transport for a single character is a complete waste, and clearly not intended to be how it works. 

I think you're arguing that an IC with MoL who takes a Retinue is somehow no longer a Unit? That the IC is somehow a Model that is detached, and no longer a Unit? I think this breaks the fundamental structure of the game, where every board piece in a players control is either a Unit or a Marker (Blast Markers, etc). This argument also creates real problems for scoring Kill Points (a definition that has always referenced Units), which are the fundamental victory mechanic in 4/6 book missions, this edition. I suppose you could argue that Slay the Warlord addresses this, but in most Kill Point missions, Slaying the Warlord and the standard IC kill point are cumulative. 

I think we'll likely encounter many a pedantic "you can't do that!" rules lawyer insisting Maun's ability to take a transport with a unit is DoA.

Likewise, they'll insist the contradictory Retinue Unit size to take a Dedicated Transport makes the option unavailable.

To me, using RAW for defective (and inoperative) rules against your opponent is the most pernicious sort of rules lawyering, arguing that what seems likely a RAW goof-up is in fact RAI, all to deny an opponent a fun option.

Edited September 9, 2022 by TheNineteenth

[The Scorpion]

On 8/30/2022 at 9:01 PM, GodEmperorOfMankind said:

I'd say you can take the DT as long as the retinue squad is no more than 5 models. They've upped the transport capacity of DTs to allow ICs to join squads. LRs capacity is 12, so 6 bulky terminators. 

They've even upped Rhinos, of all vehicles. But the DT restrictions do mean that those extra smots are very much reserved for IC, as you said.

Only the Proteus explorer is stuck at an akward 8 slots that benefit no one.

[TheNineteenth]

On 9/9/2022 at 7:03 PM, The Scorpion said:

They've even upped Rhinos, of all vehicles. But the DT restrictions do mean that those extra smots are very much reserved for IC, as you said.

Only the Proteus explorer is stuck at an akward 8 slots that benefit no one.

I think that might be up from 6?

[Claws and Effect]

On 9/8/2022 at 8:32 PM, TheNineteenth said:

I think you're arguing that an IC with MoL who takes a Retinue is somehow no longer a Unit? That the IC is somehow a Model that is detached, and no longer a Unit? I think this breaks the fundamental structure of the game, where every board piece in a players control is either a Unit or a Marker (Blast Markers, etc). This argument also creates real problems for scoring Kill Points (a definition that has always referenced Units), which are the fundamental victory mechanic in 4/6 book missions, this edition. I suppose you could argue that Slay the Warlord addresses this, but in most Kill Point missions, Slaying the Warlord and the standard IC kill point are cumulative. 

I think we'll likely encounter many a pedantic "you can't do that!" rules lawyer insisting Maun's ability to take a transport with a unit is DoA.

Likewise, they'll insist the contradictory Retinue Unit size to take a Dedicated Transport makes the option unavailable.

To me, using RAW for defective (and inoperative) rules against your opponent is the most pernicious sort of rules lawyering, arguing that what seems likely a RAW goof-up is in fact RAI, all to deny an opponent a fun option.

Slightly clunky wording on my part. 

What I was referring to is the fact that it is not legal to take a Command Squad Retinue if you don't have a MotL character to attach to it. The attached IC is a prerequisite to even take the unit in the first place. Since the characters presence in this case is mandatory, the fact that he is there is not relevant for the purpose of the Retinues DT. 

[The Scorpion]

9 hours ago, TheNineteenth said:

I think that might be up from 6?

Still too little to allow for all but the smallest of squads.

I would've put it at 10 flat. Enough for a squad, but not attached IC

[TheNineteenth]

On 9/22/2022 at 6:02 AM, The Scorpion said:

Still too little to allow for all but the smallest of squads.

I would've put it at 10 flat. Enough for a squad, but not attached IC

Great for a smaller Elite shooting unit (Seekers, etc). 

[Claws and Effect]

Duh. 

The answer is right in front of us. It specifically calls out a unit consisting of no more than FIVE models. The transport in question has room for six. 

They already anticipated this by deliberately limiting the squad size to a unit small enough to leave room for the mandatory character that is with them. 

[TheNineteenth]

2 hours ago, Claws and Effect said:

Duh. 

The answer is right in front of us. It specifically calls out a unit consisting of no more than FIVE models. The transport in question has room for six. 

They already anticipated this by deliberately limiting the squad size to a unit small enough to leave room for the mandatory character that is with them. 

Sadly, they have expressed no such limit on p159.

[The Scorpion]

7 hours ago, Claws and Effect said:

Duh. 

The answer is right in front of us. It specifically calls out a unit consisting of no more than FIVE models. The transport in question has room for six. 

They already anticipated this by deliberately limiting the squad size to a unit small enough to leave room for the mandatory character that is with them. 

I am pretty sure that the Proteus explorer capacity is 8.

The one who has 6 is the Damocles command rhino, I think.