Struggling with successors

[Spot261]

Hi all, I'm returning to the game after a long absence (ahem, Rogue Trader, ahem) and finding the odd small change here and there....

Most importantly I'm trying to be fairly fluff accurate with my Raven Guard successors but frankly really struggling. 

 

When ive won I've won big, but those occasions are few and far between and most of the time I'm finding the only way to stay in contention is to get the first turn. I'm sniper heavy and have started avoiding forward deploying as most of the time that seems simply to get units killed early. 

 

Early on I tried using infiltrators and then master of ambush to reinforce them with aggressors, with eliminators and a gun line holding back field objectives, sometimes a jump pack assault squad to harass deeper.

 

Any suggestions?

I'm varying chapter tactics but tend to come back to bolter fusillades as a staple. Atm I can field 2-2.5k max but tend to play ¹k games in practise.

Loosely my list will draw from:

Primaris captain

Phobos lt 

Primaris chaplain

Phobos librarian

Primaris apothecary 

Vindicare assassin

2 squads assault intercessors 

2 squads infiltrators 

2 squads eliminators (1 bolt rifles, 1 Las fusils)

2 squads aggressors (both flame variant)

1 squad suppressors

1 tactical squad with missile launcher or flamer

1 devastator squad with missile launcher, lascannon, plasma and grav

1 assault squad with jump packs

1 terminator squad with heavy flamer

1 hellblaster squad (assault variant)

1 sternguard squad (combi meltas plus heavy flamer)

1 razorback with lascannons

1impulsor with sky talon array

Yet I keep just being overwhelmed by waaghs, Ulthwé alpha strikes and daemon engines.

 

Any ideas?

 

[Kingnoname]

When you talk about fluff accurate successors what do you mean? The Raven Guard successors run the gambit of raven guard-like chapters like the raptors and rift stalkers more overwhelming power like the Black guard and then there are the furious space sharks. A fluffy army of each would be different.

Edited September 3, 2022 by Kingnoname

[Spot261]

They're a custom chapter,  the Harriers Hunt, very much (in my head) themed around a special forces type approach.

Sniping and assassinations was to be the order of the day, with my squads used for surgical strikes.

I'm thinking a shift towards more conventional, balanced, play might be in order at least until I'm more familiar with the current rules

[Spot261]

OK, played them today more aggressively, 1k against slaanesh daemons (new codex)

Swapped out bf and ma for bh and hfb as chapter tactics and went in for mobility over firepower. Kept the eliminators on back line objectives  but otherwise made sure everything got forward via a stratagem, jump packs, dedicated transport, warlord trait, etc.

 

By turn three the only unit my opponent had left was a bracketed KoS and I controlled every objective.

 

Seems aggressive is the way to go!

[XeonDragon]

I'm short on time at the moment, but will come back with some detailed thoughts. In the meantime, over here a guy went 3-2 at a GT, which is virtually unheard of with RG or RG successors and someone asked him about his list and detailed questions which he answered. I highly recommend reading them, they are food for thought. 

Otherwise, my initial thoughts:

1. Snipers aren't great in 9th edition, but bolter fusillades makes them at least semi-ok. 

2. Most people seem to suggest that successors with whirlwind of rage + either bolter fusillades, born heroes, hungry for battle or master artisans is best.

3. If you go bolter fusillades + a melee trait like WWOR or BH, you really need to lean into units that have bolters and fight (e.g bolter aggressors, centurions, terminators, relic terminators, assault intercessors) 

4. We were CP hungry before, now with the nephilim changes we are super, super CP starved. This means thinking very, very carefully about what to spend CP on for strike from the shadows, and what can be moved with infiltrators. This is why I think terminators with a teleport homer and a master of ambush character are good value (see my other posts on that elsewhere)

5. Our alpha strike is good, but you need to plan around going 2nd. 

6. Plan your list around your secondaries, think about how you will use each unit to score points. 

That said, RG are not competitive and are right down there with the least competitive armies in 40k right now. (See my salty post about that, lol). It will be a hard, hard slog. Fun, bloody fun, but hard. 

[XeonDragon]

Some more quick ideas:

1.       Strike from the shadows (SFTS) with 10 assault intercessors and use the fight twice stratagem

2.       As above, but with Master of Ambush (MOA)

3.       Primaris Apothecary with selfless healer (SH) and MOA can be great for plonking a massive squad of aggressors or terminators into your opponents face

4.       Terminators with a SH+MOA Apothecary and *teleport homer* are awesome. If you go first, then they do similar work to aggressors (almost the same if you use fury of the first) but if you go second, use MOA to put them out of line of sight (LOS) and at the end of your turn 1, put them up into the teleporarium and them bring them down in turn 2. It’s a great trick to reduce the impact of going 2^nd, compared to using MOA on, say, the aggressors. You can then use SFTS on the aggressors and have both units come in T2 with a 6+++, healing 3 wounds on each unit etc. for an amazing beta-strike.

5.       The apothecary sitting with the devastators and/or suppressors / tactical squad with missile launcher / eliminators isn’t a bad idea. It can help keep your long-range firepower plinking away whilst your faster elements tie up the opponent. In terms of point 4 above, if you go 2^nd you can use MOA to reposition the SH/MOA Apothecary with those long-range units, and still bring down a devastating T2 melee ball with the terminators and SFTS aggressors :)

6.       A drop pod with the sterngaurd and devastators can make a good t1 alpha strike bomb, even if you go 2^nd, or even hold back to t2

7.       The razorback is an underestimated unit. I can see some merit in taking both the razorback with sterngaurd and impulsor with hellblasters and using them to deliver those units. I think timing is key.

8.       Infiltrators eliminators are good for our new Nephilim secondary, as you can use guerrilla tactics to flip them around the board and plant bombs, but that works best if you have a unit that can clear objectives (by this, kill enough enemy units so that you “control” it for the purposes of the secondary). In that regard, the assault squads are OK, but vanguard veterans (VGSs) would be better. As RG, we really need to overload. So, if you want to take an objective think about committing the assault squad + another squad (e.g. assault intercessors, aggressors or terminators) to it, take it, plant a bomb, rinse and repeat.

I think you need a bit more mobile fast melee (VGVs), and probably a bit more anti-tank, either eradicators or a dreadnought or two (venerable, redemptory or relic contemptor). That said, even the best RG lists played by the best players are struggling right now.

In my local meta, the best RG players generally run BH/WWOR or HFB/WWOR and they play like “sneaky blood angels” – but even then, they usually can’t hang on long enough. If the games were only 4 turns, they’d be doing OK, but 5 turns means they run out of units :(

Edited December 11, 2022 by XeonDragon

[9x19 Parabellum]

On 9/6/2022 at 9:37 PM, XeonDragon said:

Some more quick ideas:

....

4.       Terminators with a SH+MOA Apothecary and *teleport homer* are awesome. If you go first, then they do similar work to aggressors (almost the same if you use fury of the first) but if you go second, use MOA to put them out of line of sight (LOS) and at the end of your turn 1, put them up into the teleporarium and them bring them down in turn 2. It’s a great trick to reduce the impact of going 2^nd, compared to using MOA on, say, the aggressors. You can then use SFTS on the aggressors and have both units come in T2 with a 6+++, healing 3 wounds on each unit etc. for an amazing beta-strike.

 

 

Xeon, what is the "SH" stand for this, and what exactly am I missing...what makes this so good?  Do you put them on the line as a bluff so that your opponent is like "whoa...terminators all up in my grill" and then if you lose the roll off, you bring them back so that they aren't exposed to enemy fire?    Maybe I'd understand this better once I know what "SH" is.

[XeonDragon]

SH = selfless healer warlord trait. So, what this does, it it allow you to heal 2 x units 3 wounds for free plus bring one dead model back each turn, and grants a 6+++. The 6+++ is fairly important, as each terminator has 3 wounds so, on average dice rolls, instead of losing 2 terminators for every 6 wounds, you lose 1 and have 1 left with 1 wound :)

 

On a big block of terminators, that can be really useful. If you go first, you use MOA to move the terminator and apothecary 9" away from something you want to kill. You can then move them in T1, shoot, charge, go rampaging etc. The great thing is that if the big nasty also has a nasty overwatch, the 6+++ will help. Likewise, if you can't kill it then the 6+++ combined with healing and resurrection will help you keep that melee tar-pit going longer. 

 

If you go second but somehow your opponent get within shooting or charge range (or there is not enough LOS blocking terrain to hide all 10 terminators), then the 6+++ again is great, plus you can then heal and resurrect, before using the teleport homer to go up end of T1 back down end of T2 movement phases. 

 

You can also use the resurrection to get free movement, as the resurrected model can be placed anywhere that is within unit coherency, so a model at the "front" of the unit facing a big unit dies, you can bring it back at the "side" to reduce the distance to another enemy unit that you want to charge, for example  (a bit of "bait and switch") :D

 

Hope that helps :D

Edited December 12, 2022 by XeonDragon

[9x19 Parabellum]

Got it, that all makes more sense now, thanks Xeon!

[XeonDragon]

No worries at all, let us all know how what you take and how you go! :D