How are you liking HH 2.0 so far?

[Marshal Mittens]

How are you liking the new edition so far?

 

Personally, despite its flaws, I like it. Marines feel, in general, tougher, and there seem to be very few things, outside of melee, that pick up entire squads. 

Edited September 4, 2022 by Marshal Mittens

[MARK0SIAN]

I’m enjoying it so far. It’s taking a bit of getting used to after so many years of playing the other edition but overall I think it’s good. It’s nice that marines are getting their save against a lot more stuff than they used to (even if it has left some weapons feeling a bit underwhelming) and it changes the game in subtle ways. For example you’re less worried about trying to secure cover as often that used to be your only save but now it’s not. 

I think, with just a bit of fine tuning for some of the lacklustre weapons, it’s shaping up to be a good edition. I know there’s some things that need an FAQ and there’s been some pretty sloppy proof reading but they can all be sorted out quite easily. 

I do think morale might be a tad on the too punishing side but it’s always been a hard one to balance between being important or irrelevant so I’m willing to give it a bit more time. 

The only other area I might like to see some tweaks are in the rites of war. Some them don’t give particular great benefits compared to the restrictions you face and vice-versa but I strongly suspect these might be tweaked in any campaign books they release. 

Overall, I’m liking the new edition and loving all the plastic model support.

[Misterduch]

Core rules are pretty damm good and I am having fun.

My only issues are some weapons being a bit pointless due to their cost/stats, Dreadnoughts being too tanky against ranged damage and some rules need a FAQ.

The biggest issue however is the lackluster balancing of some of the legion specific stuff, aswell as the rather apparent unequal attention some legions got compared to others.

This allows certain legions to bring ridiculous lists ( Death guard lascannon spam for example ) that have little to no reasonable counters for most other legions unless you know for a fact you will have to deal with 50+ move and shoot lascannons shots a turn

 

 

[Sir Frenchy]

Core rules are really fun and interactive. We had some great games here using the new rules.

The game is not in a perfectly balanced state and some errata/ tweaks may still be usefull. 

A unit being abble to fire 4 Times in a single game turn thanks to reactions is probably too much, scoring dreads lists can be really frustrating to face and having brutal on a weapon is too game changinh.

But with some self regulation (like in HH 1st edition), the game is absolutely fun and great to experience !

 

[Laughingman]

Generally positive, though plenty of shortcomings/oversights in rules writing and proof reading are apparent. The reactions are interesting and engaging, but they weren't very well balanced.

[Corswain]

I'm not a gamer but I'm really enjoying the new edition. I love the energy, the enthusiasm, the fresh blood it's brought the the setting and the community and the release schedule (feels like Heresy 1st ed. at it's peak).

I'm even making the effort to convert my 1st ed. armies into playable (if not competetive) versions for 2nd as it's been inspiring me to give that side of the hobby a go.

[Noserenda]

Sliding towards negative right now, the mini releases are alright but the (for want of a better term) "ideology" of the release is sour and there are significant issues building. I think its going to depend on two things really: 

1. How the faqs resolve the problems, no faqs would be a significant red flag
2. How my main army, the Sisters get dealt with, honestly its still a big problem that half the armies arent playable yet and the updates appear to have gone slightly off track.

Honestly id be more negative but i had some good news i dont believe its fair to share yet, so i have faith stuff going forward should be better than what we are currently getting.

Edited September 3, 2022 by Noserenda
Adding

[MARK0SIAN]

I would add that I agree with Laughingman in having some concerns about the reactions. Some of them, particularly the shooting ones, are VERY powerful considering they’re free with no downside. For example my Tyrant Siege terminators could intercept, return fire and overwatch all in my opponents turn which is frankly a disgusting amount of firepower :)

I think it either needs limiting to one reaction per unit per turn rather than phase and/or they need a trade off like interceptor used to have where if you fired interceptor you couldn’t fire again in your next turn. 
 

I do believe some of these might get looked at though and if not they’re not too hard to house rule. 

[Misterduch]

33 minutes ago, Noserenda said:

Sliding towards negative right now, the mini releases are alright but the (for want of a better term) "ideology" of the release is sour and there are significant issues building. I think its going to depend on two things really: 

1. How the faqs resolve the problems, no faqs would be a significant red flag
2. How my main army, the Sisters get dealt with, honestly its still a big problem that half the armies arent playable yet and the updates appear to have gone slightly off track.

Honestly id be more negative but i had some good news i dont believe its fair to share yet, so i have faith stuff going forward should be better than what we are currently getting.

Now you piqued my curiosity 

[WrathOfTheLion]

That's good to hear that there's more good news.

I've liked the kits so far, would love to see the plastic expand to Mechanicum and Solar Auxilia eventually. The most recent ones have done a good job moving core units over, and I think their design, sprue layout and expandability is quite impressive.

As for playing, I've had a good time, 2E has been really fun. It is flawed, but fun.

[SkimaskMohawk]

I've played 5 games of 2nd and 2 games of 1st since the new edition dropped, with another one of each scheduled in the next couple of days.

The games are pretty similar. 1st has pressure from pods on turn 1 and barrage, while 2nd has reaction sequencing and dreadnoughts; but, largely, the same strategies and sequence of events occur. Both editions are essentially playing 30k to me, and that's fun.

But, that's a bit of an indictment of 2nd. It's good because 1st had a very solid set of core rules. It didn't launch and fix all the problems of 1st; it just changed what the problems are. You compound it with some dire rules writing/editing and were kind of at the same point as we were in 1st; waiting for a faq that will set things straight, tighten it up, and bring the game to its fullest potential. And if we're in the same spot as before, it means that a whole edition refresh wasn't necessary for the game.

Imo an "all stars" edition would probably the most fun. Have 1st edition blasts, but balanced with 6th edition ruins and night fight. 7th edition wound allocation and 2nd edition snipers. 5th edition outflank and vehicle rules. 2nd edition psychic powers. Iirc Andy chambers touted 2nd as just that, but it's obvious that the inspiration of past editions was outshone by the inspiration of making certain units good and certain factions bad.

[Laughingman]

37 minutes ago, SkimaskMohawk said:

I've played 5 games of 2nd and 2 games of 1st since the new edition dropped, with another one of each scheduled in the next couple of days.

The games are pretty similar. 1st has pressure from pods on turn 1 and barrage, while 2nd has reaction sequencing and dreadnoughts; but, largely, the same strategies and sequence of events occur. Both editions are essentially playing 30k to me, and that's fun.

But, that's a bit of an indictment of 2nd. It's good because 1st had a very solid set of core rules. It didn't launch and fix all the problems of 1st; it just changed what the problems are. You compound it with some dire rules writing/editing and were kind of at the same point as we were in 1st; waiting for a faq that will set things straight, tighten it up, and bring the game to its fullest potential. And if we're in the same spot as before, it means that a whole edition refresh wasn't necessary for the game.

Imo an "all stars" edition would probably the most fun. Have 1st edition blasts, but balanced with 6th edition ruins and night fight. 7th edition wound allocation and 2nd edition snipers. 5th edition outflank and vehicle rules. 2nd edition psychic powers. Iirc Andy chambers touted 2nd as just that, but it's obvious that the inspiration of past editions was outshone by the inspiration of making certain units good and certain factions bad.

 

I would frame it as they clearly had *priorities* in game design (make it an infantry focused game, so nerf X,Z,Y). Vehicles, Templates, Bikes, got the short end of the stick, It just happened to effect some factions more then others.  Though some of the rules/mechanics issues are ambiguous and need to be FAQed.

[SkimaskMohawk]

59 minutes ago, Laughingman said:

 

I would frame it as they clearly had *priorities* in game design (make it an infantry focused game, so nerf X,Z,Y). Vehicles, Templates, Bikes, got the short end of the stick, It just happened to effect some factions more then others.  Though some of the rules/mechanics issues are ambiguous and need to be FAQed.

There's a lot of failed rule writing on top of a lot of stuff that seems too bafflingly off to be deliberate. Was it intent for armigers to feel so supremely out of place amongst the rest of the big robots? Was it intent for antigrav not to hop over stuff? Was it intent for a hump pack marine to be bulkier than a javelin or leviathan? 

And ya priorities of the game direction are certainly there, though they ironically miss the mark of infantry centric with the overall strength of dreads.

[Orange Knight]

I really like it. 

I'm glad that blast templates and barrage weapons aren't dominating the game as they used to, and that Terminators aren't being picked up in droves after a single shooting attack.

Dreads feel great.

Some reactions are way too strong, however. On the positive it does lead to some fun mind games about how units are approached.

I think the game should strictly be approached with a non-competitive mindset. There are far too many examples of units that are OK when taken in a single instance, but obnoxious when spammed. If everyone approaches the game with a goal to make varied lists then it will remain fun.

[Marshal Mittens]

I am hoping that the developers don't do what they have done with 40k, and balance it around the 1% of players who are super meta chasers. Are dreadnaught spam lists very strong? Yes. Is a 50 Lascannon list very strong? Yes. But nerfing Lascannon heavy support squads and dreads isn't the answer. Most people don't play like that, and everyone can choose to not play people who do. 

WAAC folks will always find something horrendously broken, the game should not be balanced around them. 

[Dont-Be-Haten]

We've been having fun at locals. I've set up a big campaign foe the city and it has been very well received so far. 

I've played 4 games of 2.0 so far, and I have 3 more scheduled for next week. I've watched several bat reps also.

Initial thoughts;

Dreads are good, but high frequency rending/AP 2, grav, primarchs, and knights take care of them fairly consistently.

Pinning tests are so important. Rotator cannons, snipers, and other options are almost auto-includes to deal with pesky reactions.

The reactions are absolutely solid, and bring a great element to the game. As long as you know your army, and have the counters to reaction options they don't feel as over powered in practice.

Deep strike assault is a very good mechanic too and offers a variety of ways to play and the nuncilla vox gives your army identity when combined with blasts and deepstrike. On that note, I love how every optional war gear piece doesn't just feel niche and has multiple game mechanic implementations.

[Gorgoff]

1 hour ago, Dont-Be-Haten said:

We've been having fun at locals. I've set up a big campaign foe the city and it has been very well received so far. 

I've played 4 games of 2.0 so far, and I have 3 more scheduled for next week. I've watched several bat reps also.

Initial thoughts;

Dreads are good, but high frequency rending/AP 2, grav, primarchs, and knights take care of them fairly consistently.

Pinning tests are so important. Rotator cannons, snipers, and other options are almost auto-includes to deal with pesky reactions.

The reactions are absolutely solid, and bring a great element to the game. As long as you know your army, and have the counters to reaction options they don't feel as over powered in practice.

Deep strike assault is a very good mechanic too and offers a variety of ways to play and the nuncilla vox gives your army identity when combined with blasts and deepstrike. On that note, I love how every optional war gear piece doesn't just feel niche and has multiple game mechanic implementations.

I full heartily agree. Even the number of games I played so far is the same. :)

 

[SkimaskMohawk]

@Orange Knight the thing is, despite blasts and barrage being really strong, they didn't actually dominate the game in 1st. Unless your terrain was terrible. The artillery tanks were extremely vulnerable to podded units, which came in turn 1; rapiers got reined in 4 years ago; javelins were extremely cheap and one-shot pred chassis in the side. You were able to kill a lot of these "oppressive blast" units turn 1 or 2, and have your terminators be an unstoppable wave. The lack of an extra wound was compensated by every power armour unit being much more expensive and being unable to field cheap weight of fire.

@Marshal Mittens I feel every extremely strong 30k list revolves around investing into a certain gimmick. Lots of dreads, lots of power armour, lots of flyers lots of deepstrike, lots of morale manipulation, etc... 

There's a hard counter list out there for each of them, which means theyre rather balanced...once the options become widely available. Unless you're into printing or sailing, your options are basically shell out huge for resin or wait. Wait for a plastic scorpius; wait for plastic speeders; wait for the delayed lascannon set. 

But ya, agree that there's a component of talking over game intent with your opponent, and some self restraint is necessary (or a clear mutual intent to make rock-hard lists).

[Marshal Mittens]

1 hour ago, SkimaskMohawk said:

@Orange Knight the thing is, despite blasts and barrage being really strong, they didn't actually dominate the game in 1st. Unless your terrain was terrible. The artillery tanks were extremely vulnerable to podded units, which came in turn 1; rapiers got reined in 4 years ago; javelins were extremely cheap and one-shot pred chassis in the side. You were able to kill a lot of these "oppressive blast" units turn 1 or 2, and have your terminators be an unstoppable wave. The lack of an extra wound was compensated by every power armour unit being much more expensive and being unable to field cheap weight of fire.

@Marshal Mittens I feel every extremely strong 30k list revolves around investing into a certain gimmick. Lots of dreads, lots of power armour, lots of flyers lots of deepstrike, lots of morale manipulation, etc... 

There's a hard counter list out there for each of them, which means theyre rather balanced...once the options become widely available. Unless you're into printing or sailing, your options are basically shell out huge for resin or wait. Wait for a plastic scorpius; wait for plastic speeders; wait for the delayed lascannon set. 

But ya, agree that there's a component of talking over game intent with your opponent, and some self restraint is necessary (or a clear mutual intent to make rock-hard lists).

Lascannon set goes on pre-order next weekend! And yes, kts very needed for dread spam. 

https://www.warhammer-community.com/2022/09/04/sunday-preview-join-the-battle-for-middle-earth-with-next-weeks-pre-orders/

[SkimaskMohawk]

Yea the timing was pretty funny. Glad they're rolling stuff out, but it's hilarious how much stuff is getting jammed into next week's pre-order compared to the 40k weekends.

[Shovellovin]

Speaking as someone that never played HH 1.0 or 40K 7th, I’ve very much enjoyed how the game is lethal but not nearly as lethal as 40K 9th (played 40K 2nd and 3rd, then came back for 8th). My perception may be skewed as I have only played 3 games and all of them have been Zone Mortalis. My buddy and I have shelved 40K and plan to stick with 30K for the foreseeable future. We both enjoy the reactions and are glad that we don’t need to deal with stratagems or the requirement to cart along a library of army codex and campaign books to play the game. 
 

The amount of models being available in plastic has also been a real treat. We are both knee-deep into the Siege of Terra books so the 30K release has come at the perfect time for us. 

[Xenith]

I'm having good fun so far - I've got maybe 5 games in ranging from 500 - 3000pts, and still ironing out the rules. 90% of my group is new to the game/setting so we're building up armies, one person with an established large DA army will be tough as he has so many more units to draw from.

Yea, some parts of the game are very strong, like multi shooting dreads (I think that a dual lascannon contemptor might be one of the strongest choices as it can basically react against anything that can shoot it, to lethal effect), however this is stuff that's available to all players. Infantry seem a lot harder to take out than I'd imagined, and way more than 40k. It actually takes a lot of firepower to take them down now. which is refreshing. 20 heart of the legion tacs on an objective with an apoc - I faced that last game and pretty much just not worth shooting until you can get rid of the apothecary. 

Some Legions seem to have it better than others - but from this discussion there's a few legions that can take advantage of rules? 

Most of my games have been played against a Fists player - the +1 to hit on auto weapons is just punishing, and they have a great advanced reaction, great warlord traits, and access to Illastus and storm shields. It seems a lot and I'm struggling to see how my Alphas can compare - I had the sniper advantage, however last game they too a nemesis recon unit, hitting on 2+ due to fists trait I got out snipered. 

[Marshal Mittens]

Some Legions, and Fists very much come to mind, do seem to have very strong advantages over other legions. 

[Bung]

4 hours ago, Marshal Mittens said:

Some Legions, and Fists very much come to mind, do seem to have very strong advantages over other legions. 

Fists have the most obvious Legion Trait others are more subtle and need better planing. 

The other side is Fists make even better use from improved Weapon profiles everyone can use like Rotor and Auto Cannons

@Marshal Mittens

From the one game i have seen with Alpha Legion, need some skills with positioning and estimate distances for the Legion Trait.

[Xenith]

Yea, the AL one for +2" is definitely a lot more subtle and hard to get the most out of compared to other legions for sure - played DA last night and they get similar, +1 to whatever weapon suits their unit the best. I think that one's really powerful, and you should probably be picking a single 'wing' per detachment. 

Being 2" further away doesn't really matter when you can just wipe your opponent's unit off the table with better shooting. Even playing on 6x4 boards things seem to close the gap quite quickly. I think I've been playing too much 9th and need to get back into the cagey 6th ed gamestyle. A problem might also be that I'm just taking what I've painted and am not really optimising my lists at all, or building super powered units - I haven't got a single RoT unit built yet.