How are you liking HH 2.0 so far?

[BitsHammer]

Just to weigh in a bit but there are more ways to damage a tank than breaking it's armor. Breaking tracks and road wheels is easy if you can get in close after all.

[Lord Krungharr]

Guess it's just anathema to GW but cover should be a modifier to hit rolls, not some sort of separate save.  Certain terrain types, like a defense wall, could also save reduce the AP or strength of an incoming shot.  Stuff like that would make the game richer and more interesting.  But overall I like HH2.0 even better than I liked 6th/7th of 40k, which got so ridiculous with the Formations and Death Star shenanigans.  Looking forward to my 2nd game, hopefully next week.

 

[BitsHammer]

1 hour ago, Lord Krungharr said:

Guess it's just anathema to GW but cover should be a modifier to hit rolls, not some sort of separate save.  Certain terrain types, like a defense wall, could also save reduce the AP or strength of an incoming shot.  Stuff like that would make the game richer and more interesting.  But overall I like HH2.0 even better than I liked 6th/7th of 40k, which got so ridiculous with the Formations and Death Star shenanigans.  Looking forward to my 2nd game, hopefully next week.

 

WFB had modifiers to hit for cover IIRC, and honestly I'm not against it. Modifiers are definitely not a bad idea, but they probably shouldn't be a universal save modifer like we see in 9th's AP system. One of the issues their we saw was weapons that used to be effective against GEQ statlines became worse because they no longer ignored saves, and even AP4 was -1.

I'd argue for keeping the current save system but giving some weapons (like plasma) an additional modifier that worsens the target's save.

That and just let vehicles have an armour save.

[Gorgoff]

11 hours ago, BitsHammer said:

WFB had modifiers to hit for cover IIRC, and honestly I'm not against it. Modifiers are definitely not a bad idea,

Yup, would be the best way to do it. Easy and immersive. Saves roles as well.

[Claws and Effect]

I've been enjoying 2.0 so far. I've gotten probably 9 games in (play every other Sunday at our FLGS). 

I actually like the change to plasma. It's still a solid choice with the ability to punch through 2+ saves. But now it's not objectively the best choice for almost every situation. And against dreads it's actually really good, it wounds on 4s against T7 so any shot that successfully wounds is pushing it to its invuln save by default. 

I'm annoyed at some of the changes to my Legion (Raven Guard). Was Furious Charge really so powerful that they had to take it away in favor of a rule that is useless for the majority of units that get it? And the Hawks rule is completely redundant for any kind of Cavalry unit. Like, really guys? The benefit for being on a jetbike is a worse version of the rule jetbikes already have, that can't improve it in any way? That was just poorly thought out. 

Reactions are fun, and not very gamebreaking unless you let them stack up. I don't shoot with deep striking units. They're already going to shoot at me twice, why give them another free shot? 

But, yeah, gripes aside I've been enjoying it. It really does feel like they fixed a bunch of problems just to replace them with new ones though. 

[Gorgoff]

4 hours ago, Claws and Effect said:

I've been enjoying 2.0 so far. I've gotten probably 9 games in (play every other Sunday at our FLGS). 

I actually like the change to plasma. It's still a solid choice with the ability to punch through 2+ saves. But now it's not objectively the best choice for almost every situation. And against dreads it's actually really good, it wounds on 4s against T7 so any shot that successfully wounds is pushing it to its invuln save by default. 

I'm annoyed at some of the changes to my Legion (Raven Guard). Was Furious Charge really so powerful that they had to take it away in favor of a rule that is useless for the majority of units that get it? And the Hawks rule is completely redundant for any kind of Cavalry unit. Like, really guys? The benefit for being on a jetbike is a worse version of the rule jetbikes already have, that can't improve it in any way? That was just poorly thought out. 

Reactions are fun, and not very gamebreaking unless you let them stack up. I don't shoot with deep striking units. They're already going to shoot at me twice, why give them another free shot? 

 

I agree, but may add something. In my experience not a lot opponents would use their single shooting reaction on some guys shooting with bolt pistols on their troops. Depending on who you charge of course but sometimes it would even be in your favor if the opponent does that. But yeah I stalled shooting from units who are about to charge as well for the same reason. Especially if they want to charge a shooty unit.

[TheNineteenth]

On 9/7/2022 at 7:27 AM, SkimaskMohawk said:

Unless you were bringing 6 scoring units in 1st, that was the game then too. And I remember that people usually hovered around 3 or 4, so ya, it was the game then too.

The problem isn't line being too punitive; once you get recons and command squads to fill in your elite lists, then you're off to the races. The problem is that the missions don't actually care about scoring the objectives and supplement it with a ton of kill points. War of lies can literally just be kill points at the end of the game and make all the objectives count for 0. Having 6 turns be the majority game length is also a bit...long. 5 with a chance to roll over tends to speed things up and focus the plan a bit better.

 

I think what we really need to watch for here is how Event Organizers (yes, narrative and not tournaments, blah, blah) change the game with mission packets, unit bans, special house ruled choices (Legions taking Knights before added into Age of Darkness Army List), etc. Naturally, this mirrors the historical "practicing for 40k tourney" thing people often did in the Bad Old 1999+1 NoVA days of 6th, but people tend to like to play a consistent set of formats (open war, Centurion, Zone Mortalis, etc) and build their collections and army lists around it.

The impact of The Graying Legion on how the game was played in North America was huge, comparable I think to the ITC format in 40k. I anticipate something similar in regards to what missions we play. I'd love to hear from NoVA attendees about what the missions were like and get a hint of where things seem to be going.

[TheNineteenth]

11 hours ago, Claws and Effect said:

I'm annoyed at some of the changes to my Legion (Raven Guard). Was Furious Charge really so powerful that they had to take it away in favor of a rule that is useless for the majority of units that get it? And the Hawks rule is completely redundant for any kind of Cavalry unit. Like, really guys? The benefit for being on a jetbike is a worse version of the rule jetbikes already have, that can't improve it in any way? That was just poorly thought out. 

It seems painfully obvious that this ruleset went through some iterative waves of editing (maybe based on playtests? Cynically, I'm guessing due to stops and starts, project handoffs and personnel changes, and poor time management). The end result is a sloppy mess where changes were not applied in a sensible order, and changes that impacted each other (like you point out here) obviously were not caught with the abject lack of continuity/consistency editing.

Then again, I fear there are occasions where rules writers do sort of push past Occam's Raisor to write rules that don't work on their face (or bonuses that are worse than status quo) out of antipathy towards units, factions, etc.

Edited September 8, 2022 by TheNineteenth

[SkimaskMohawk]

1 hour ago, TheNineteenth said:

The impact of The Graying Legion on how the game was played in North America was huge, comparable I think to the ITC format in 40k.

Uh....who? I honestly don't know what this group is or what changes it issued into 30k. 

[Brofist]

I've seen the claim that plasma is 'really good' against dreads come up in a number of places, but that's not really true is it?

Edited September 8, 2022 by Brofist

[Gorgoff]

1 hour ago, Brofist said:

I've seen the claim that plasma is 'really good' against dreads come up in a number of places, but that's not really true is it?

Nope, that's rubbish. Olasma is in fact great against Dreadnoughts. You wound Contemptors on 4s anyway and then it is AP2 due rending. It only got nerfed against infantry which created room for other special weapons to take against infantry. Great change if you ask me. 

[Noserenda]

Id argue wounding on a 4+ is strictly average at best, chancy even, when other weapons dont have a chance to blow up :D I agree Plasma needing changes to make it less of a no brainer but its down with flamers for effectiveness now i think.

 

[SkimaskMohawk]

10 plasma shots average almost 2.2 wounds against a dread. That's fine, but certainly isn't great or really good; especially as a unit of 5 is now in the trouble zone.

[BitsHammer]

1 hour ago, SkimaskMohawk said:

10 plasma shots average almost 2.2 wounds against a dread. That's fine, but certainly isn't great or really good; especially as a unit of 5 is now in the trouble zone.

I'm too busy piling corpses on a Spartan to check but how does it shake out with A Talent for Murder active?

[Brother_Angelus]

25 minutes ago, BitsHammer said:

I'm too busy piling corpses on a Spartan to check but how does it shake out with A Talent for Murder active?

Against a contemptor, wounding on 3's doesn't help all that much because  Breaching doesn't trigger and they will likely be saved.

Against a Leviathan, going from 5+ to 4+ and retaining Breaching should give a little bonus.

[The Scorpion]

On 9/5/2022 at 9:28 AM, Xenith said:

I'm having good fun so far - I've got maybe 5 games in ranging from 500 - 3000pts, and still ironing out the rules. 90% of my group is new to the game/setting so we're building up armies, one person with an established large DA army will be tough as he has so many more units to draw from.

Yea, some parts of the game are very strong, like multi shooting dreads (I think that a dual lascannon contemptor might be one of the strongest choices as it can basically react against anything that can shoot it, to lethal effect), however this is stuff that's available to all players. Infantry seem a lot harder to take out than I'd imagined, and way more than 40k. It actually takes a lot of firepower to take them down now. which is refreshing. 20 heart of the legion tacs on an objective with an apoc - I faced that last game and pretty much just not worth shooting until you can get rid of the apothecary. 

Some Legions seem to have it better than others - but from this discussion there's a few legions that can take advantage of rules? 

Most of my games have been played against a Fists player - the +1 to hit on auto weapons is just punishing, and they have a great advanced reaction, great warlord traits, and access to Illastus and storm shields. It seems a lot and I'm struggling to see how my Alphas can compare - I had the sniper advantage, however last game they too a nemesis recon unit, hitting on 2+ due to fists trait I got out snipered. 

Keep in mind that the AL bonus stacks with everything.

If for example, you take your bolter beakies as recon marines (with or without the Rite of War), the shroud bombs will up the effect from 2" to 8".

For all intents and purposes, most of the the Dornbois would have to get within 4" to benefit from rapid fire, at which point they're just begging to be tied up in a charge.

[Gorgoff]

On 9/8/2022 at 11:25 PM, Noserenda said:

Id argue wounding on a 4+ is strictly average at best,

No complaints from my side here but there are not so many weapons for infantry to wound Dreadnoughts properly so that is a big plus if plasma. And their gets got is not very dangerous for meqs because of the nerf. It gives and it takes..  :)

 

[Dont-Be-Haten]

1 hour ago, Gorgoff said:

No complaints from my side here but there are not so many weapons for infantry to wound Dreadnoughts properly so that is a big plus if plasma. And their gets got is not very dangerous for meqs because of the nerf. It gives and it takes..  :)

 

Seekers with scorpius rounds are statistically better than plasma against dreads no?

There's so many good units and it is so difficult to zero in on a single list. I love the parity!

[Marshal Mittens]

Probably the best thing against dreads is lascannons and melta, or some specific melee weapons. 

However, plasma Tactical Support Squads seem pretty decent against everything in the game except AV14/15. 

Are plasma support squads the best option against AV </= 13 vehicles/termies/dreads/and Power Armor?

No.

But they are decent against all those things. I'm no tourney player but I will probably include a plasma support squad in every army, because plasma is super cool and it still does decent work. 

2.2 wounds at 13-24" and 4.4 wounds at 12" or less from a 10 man squad seems pretty ok, for the points, against a contemptor, for me.

Template plasma weapons fall off against a lot of things because of the way templates and the heavy key word interact, in my opinion. I still like the Contemptor plasma cannon, but mostly against normal power armor, and its not close to the best option. 

Of course, HSS Las Cannons, dual Las cannon contemptors, etc, can kill everything plasma guns kill, from twice as far away, for not many more points, so yes, in a world of plentiful lascannons, TSS Plasma has some serious contenders.

Just my opinion.

Edited September 10, 2022 by Marshal Mittens

[Brother Sutek]

On 9/7/2022 at 7:27 AM, SkimaskMohawk said:

Unless you were bringing 6 scoring units in 1st, that was the game then too. And I remember that people usually hovered around 3 or 4, so ya, it was the game then too.

The problem isn't line being too punitive; once you get recons and command squads to fill in your elite lists, then you're off to the races. The problem is that the missions don't actually care about scoring the objectives and supplement it with a ton of kill points. War of lies can literally just be kill points at the end of the game and make all the objectives count for 0. Having 6 turns be the majority game length is also a bit...long. 5 with a chance to roll over tends to speed things up and focus the plan a bit better.

@Mandragola imo what the designers thought of how things should work is an argument better left un-voiced. The blast and bike fiasco makes it pretty obvious they think in very emotional, heavy handed ways. 

Putting that aside, the whole bit about power swords giving no benefit against some armours but cutting through others with ease is idk, missing the forest a bit. That's the nature of armour; impenetrable until penetrated. It's also discounting the fact that toughness based models are also invulnerable to stuff with insufficient strength; that power sword needs its rending to wound a leviathan; a solar auxilia hq with a paragon blade will bounce off, regardless of its AP. Compare the other power weapons and you still have an easier time hullpointing off the vehicles in your strength range than hurting the leviathan. 

Not every weapon can hurt vehicles, and not every weapon can hurt toughness values. Look at Kabanda and think about what weapons get locked out while he's at toughness 9.

I'm still not allowed to talk about bikes. Maybe if we are in person and I've just had a nice meal and fun game so I'm not likely to start ranting.

[Dont-Be-Haten]

Played my 7th game over the weekend. Depending on the mission. Line is so important and is a big focus. Definitely need min 3 Line squads if not 4 in 2k lists. At least from the missions we play, and the focus Line/scoring has had on events etc. Apothecaries are definitely mandatory. A 4+++ on an objective makes tactical really good.

[Gorgoff]

Isn't it wonderful that tacticals and other line units are really worth it taking and important?

[SkimaskMohawk]

I also played my 7th game this past weekend against my world eater buddy whos list is very 2015. Medusa, blobs of chain axe tacs with apothecaries, kheres dread, plasma support, and some other odds and ends. He's a smart guy and filled it out with a 10 man Las squad, command squad, melee contemptor and I want to say 15 counts as rampagers for his 2500.

He's not taking full tac blobs any more. They just got hammered by dreads and power fist terminators. Now, not every army is able to get deepstriking terminators, but dreadnoughts are the real issue; they're fast, durable, and crank out a high amount of attacks. They're also....cheaper than those tac blobs, so it's actually still efficient to toss them in and grind through a few. Stubborn 7 after the Sgt gets sniped also isn't the most reliable.

Unless your plan is to hammer and anvil with dreads/termies of your own into the ongoing combat, I just don't see investing a ton into tacs as a main unit. Their strengths are basically direct countered by the meta units.

 

[Dont-Be-Haten]

I think 2 tactical squads and 1 - 2 assault squads is a sweet spot. Having line 12+ movement is sweet. Toss some apothecaries in there and you can effectively kite just about everything that would want to tie them up in combat, and harass backfield line troops with your own mobile scoring options.

Rhinos blocking pathways and LoS is still a thing and if people are directing ML, Las, etc at a couple boxes then they ain't shooting what needs to be shot. I'll gladly lose a glanced to death rhino that forces move around. When in doubt I'm just gonna ram something. I've got another game coming g up tomorrow and I'm interested to see how my army is shaping up!

 

[Ripper.McGuirl]

On 9/8/2022 at 3:03 PM, SkimaskMohawk said:

Uh....who? I honestly don't know what this group is or what changes it issued into 30k. 

I don't know that we "issued changes" but I think he is referring to the fact that there was a consistent core of people that ran most of the Heresy events at Adpeticon and NOVA from 2015 up 'till the last couple years. I was definitely not one of the main organizers in the group, but the events just reflected what we wanted to play and run, and they happened to end up being some of the biggest Heresy events in the US for most of those years.
I am guessing what Nineteenth is saying is: if the people who run some of the biggest events in the country prefer playing one way over another or make some edit for their rule pack, it will naturally effect how people who go to those events play (for good or bad). 
Of course, if you don't go to those events (and now there probably are going to be a lot more people playing Heresy and probably most of those people WON'T be making it to Adepticon or NOVA), then it wouldn't and shouldn't matter to you.
( I should also add that it's been a few years since I had any involvement in planning either of these events, several of the Greying Legion has taken a step away from organizing, and one is sadly no longer with us. Lots of super cool and capable people have taken up the mantle to keep those events going strong. )