How are you liking HH 2.0 so far?

[Noserenda]

The fans are doing the work FW should be doing, and im surprised there is so much resistance to cool new things to try in such a "narrative system" (Heavy sarcasm) as AoD. I dont agree with all the changes the Panoptica lot are running with but its overall an excellent piece of work, and bringing on board so many groups of people working in the same direction is a good thing too.

That and the FAQ is kinda necessary to make the game work properly without assumptions and FW havent done one yet.

[WrathOfTheLion]

For me it's simply I haven't been able to explore the stuff already there yet, let alone supplementary content.

I have to work and all, so it's going to take a while to get up to speed just on the normal stuff coming out.

[Valkyrion]

Sorry if it's already been discussed, but why is there a move towards community driven rule sets when the current one is only three months into its rebirth?

The rules could be a bit tidier, sure, and a FAQ is already overdue, but it's brand new. 40k gets things like Nachmund and Nephilim and new Codexes to shake the balance up, but HH has barely even had time to stand on its own two feet yet.

[brother_b]

In my experience Fan Based works are passion projects of the creator. There can be a let down when the creator's passion is not shared by his group, club, the wider hobby, etc. I say this knowing the feeling.

I'm always impressed with people who turn out quality resources, such as the resources referenced here. The hobby has changed though, coming from a long-time gamer. There's so much "official" support that the fan based content (usually written to fill in missing gaps in rules) just gets ignored.

I hope you don't feel too frustrated or put off by the reaction here, as passion projects are what keep many people involved in the hobby, be it new rules, creating an army, conversions, etc.

 

[Lord Krungharr]

I see no need for any fan based redaction or alterations in almost any case.  If there's a difference of opinion about rules before the game, D6 it.  During the game D6 it.  Saves so much time and if you don't get the result you want.....play another game after with the same armies/opponent using the opposite of the D6 ruling and see how it goes.

Keep the fun alive!  Lawyering is pretty much never fun unless your billable hours are several hundred dollars or more per hour.

[Noserenda]

I think there is also a significant difference in experience between some folks who have been playing a version of 40k Horus Heresy for over a decade and just lost a whole swathe of armies and options; and some who might have picked it up a couple of months ago and have only just been getting to grips with the still fairly extensive marine list.

[Brother Sutek]

While I like a lot of the Mourneval rules, terminator destroyers and tempest speeders, my group doesn't get to play enough that they want to learn third party rules. We had the same issue with DnD, if it wasn't official then they didn't want to use it. This new ruleset is just that, new. I'd let it shake down a bit before adding new stuff and this is from a guy very unhappy about they added for missing units, assault bikes in particular.  That being said do what makes you happy and I doubt we'll see an official FAQ before December. I'll be happy to be wrong on that.

[Gorgoff]

1 hour ago, Brother Sutek said:

While I like a lot of the Mourneval rules, terminator destroyers and tempest speeders, my group doesn't get to play enough that they want to learn third party rules. We had the same issue with DnD, if it wasn't official then they didn't want to use it. This new ruleset is just that, new. I'd let it shake down a bit before adding new stuff and this is from a guy very unhappy about they added for missing units, assault bikes in particular.  That being said do what makes you happy and I doubt we'll see an official FAQ before December. I'll be happy to be wrong on that.

FW just brought and edited Exemplar Units today. ;)

https://www.warhammer-community.com/downloads/#the-horus-heresy

[SkimaskMohawk]

Ya, they made the world eaters one worse and made the rage actually give the bonus it obviously meant to provide. Still a net loss. 

Adding a rule that didn't appear in the 1st edition or original 2nd versions definitely make me think the claim of "originally written for 2nd" is a lie. You know, if the wild shift in stats and points didn't give it away already with some of these units.

[Misterduch]

14 hours ago, SkimaskMohawk said:

Ya, they made the world eaters one worse and made the rage actually give the bonus it obviously meant to provide. Still a net loss. 

Adding a rule that didn't appear in the 1st edition or original 2nd versions definitely make me think the claim of "originally written for 2nd" is a lie. You know, if the wild shift in stats and points didn't give it away already with some of these units.

TFW when your exemplary unit still isn't out yet, and therefore will be written with 2nd in mind, but you realise GW will probably just forgot about salamanders

[Brother_Angelus]

On 9/16/2022 at 5:50 PM, Petitioner's City said:

Fair points brothers, although I find it sad too to read this, as it feels very disconnected from the hobby's history - I grew up on the Citadel Journal, Fanatic and the first Specialist Games, in which GW supported and published fan variations, rewrites and additions to their games.

It's a bit of a shame to not want to experiment, I find, but understand also risk aversion 

That comes off as pretty condescending? We're not honouring the history of the game by not using fanmade content?

It's not risk aversion, I just want to play the game as it's intended, with other people playing as intended. If that becomes intolerable for any reason, or the support for the game dries up, then sure my local group will probably shop around for some fixes, but certainly not this soon.

[Gorgoff]

On 9/16/2022 at 1:01 AM, Petitioner's City said:

Do you guys think with the mournival, discord and some other community groups working together on the libers panoptica/Centura/etc (I know some of you worked on these too), that there might be more widespread adoption of these? Or have you found resistance to them?

My group never used houserules in the past and probably won't use these either. I am usually open to to something like that but it is a lot to take in. Over 100 fan units and lots of bigger or smaller changes. The edition is way too young to see where the problems are if you ask me. Some people yelled for changes day one and a lot of them got made in these fanrules. Stuff I don't agree on. 

[Noserenda]

2 hours ago, Brother_Angelus said:

That comes off as pretty condescending? We're not honouring the history of the game by not using fanmade content?

It's not risk aversion, I just want to play the game as it's intended, with other people playing as intended. If that becomes intolerable for any reason, or the support for the game dries up, then sure my local group will probably shop around for some fixes, but certainly not this soon.

That pretty much is the definition of risk aversion though? Sticking to the prescribed path and not deviating? Which is fine if thats your bag but Age of Darkness does have a long history of improvising and expanding via fan made content, i strongly suspect the official game system owes its existence to Tempus Fugitives selling out Warhammer world consistently and directly demonstrating the appetite for Horus heresy gaming, but that doesn't mean you have to use anything in your games you dont want to, just dont be surprised plenty of people do want that (Or are badly underserved by the current rules).

[Bung]

1 hour ago, Noserenda said:

That pretty much is the definition of risk aversion though? Sticking to the prescribed path and not deviating? Which is fine if thats your bag but Age of Darkness does have a long history of improvising and expanding via fan made content, i strongly suspect the official game system owes its existence to Tempus Fugitives selling out Warhammer world consistently and directly demonstrating the appetite for Horus heresy gaming, but that doesn't mean you have to use anything in your games you dont want to, just dont be surprised plenty of people do want that (Or are badly underserved by the current rules).

But you have to accept the reverse too if someone doesnt want to use fan made stuff.

To be honest, after 20 years GW games and much bad experience with fan and house rules its hard to convince me to use them.

 

[Noserenda]

2 hours ago, Noserenda said:

That pretty much is the definition of risk aversion though? Sticking to the prescribed path and not deviating? Which is fine if thats your bag but Age of Darkness does have a long history of improvising and expanding via fan made content, i strongly suspect the official game system owes its existence to Tempus Fugitives selling out Warhammer world consistently and directly demonstrating the appetite for Horus heresy gaming, but that doesn't mean you have to use anything in your games you dont want to, just dont be surprised plenty of people do want that (Or are badly underserved by the current rules).

 

1 hour ago, Bung said:

But you have to accept the reverse too if someone doesnt want to use fan made stuff.

To be honest, after 20 years GW games and much bad experience with fan and house rules its hard to convince me to use them.

 

Does the formatting help with clarity? ;) 

I dont know about you but after so many years its usually fairly obvious at a glance or two if homebrew is at least worth trying, the red flags are usually there in some obviously broken rule or inane points value rather than some subtle interactions and my group isnt super bothered about squeezing optimisation out of lists.

That said, we have also been playing with or writing homebrew to varying degrees the whole time too :D  

[Dont-Be-Haten]

As a pseudo content creator who has invested a lot of time, effort, and play-testing in my campaigns it's very difficult to get people to come around to using your mission packs outside of event settings.

Just changing up missions for a better game or keeping things simple but fair is like getting teeth pulled to get the player base to play, give feedback, and facilitate growth.

It is no different with made up rules or "fixed" units etc. There will always be inherent bias for those units, missions.

FWIW I don't have a problem with fan service warhammer. But I totally understand the player base and the lack of desire to want to be accommodating for what is being put out there. Other more well known content creators have put out better stuff than I...and tjeu only have a small contingent that participates in their extended verse and content compared to their followers.

[Brofist]

Wow what a lame exemplary unit .pdf update

[Bung]

3 hours ago, Noserenda said:

 

Does the formatting help with clarity? ;) 

I dont know about you but after so many years its usually fairly obvious at a glance or two if homebrew is at least worth trying, the red flags are usually there in some obviously broken rule or inane points value rather than some subtle interactions and my group isnt super bothered about squeezing optimisation out of lists.

That said, we have also been playing with or writing homebrew to varying degrees the whole time too :D  

 

Thats another point you have a group of players and i didnt for most of the time.  Which led more than once to get homebrew stuff thrown in my face 5 mins before the Game 

Even if there is alot of work involved alot of stuff looks more Like wishlisting with lack of proper playtesting, like the Mournival rules for last Edition in my opinion.

 

Sorry, i simply dont play against people i barrely know throwing homebrew rules at me. Never had fun with such games.

 

If you and your group are into homebrew is fine, but dismissing other opinions as irrelevant and not fitting doesnt help your cause.

[SkimaskMohawk]

Man I remember when I found out about the fan factions for 1st; I was told my tournament pack was missing eldar and necron stuff by the narrative event runner, like they automatically should have been in. He really didn't like it when I told him if knights were banned and daemons were limited, there wasn't any way I was putting fan factions in.

[Brother Sutek]

I am more willing to try home made missions than fan rules and I did like many of the mournival fan rules. Missions can be a breath of fresh air esp if you're running a campaign. That being said we try to let everyone know what is going to happen and unless there is a major dislike from a majority of the group then we try new missions. Adding in new units and rules outside if that is a tougher sell 

[Laughingman]

2 hours ago, Brother Sutek said:

I am more willing to try home made missions than fan rules and I did like many of the mournival fan rules. Missions can be a breath of fresh air esp if you're running a campaign. That being said we try to let everyone know what is going to happen and unless there is a major dislike from a majority of the group then we try new missions. Adding in new units and rules outside if that is a tougher sell 

The more terrible the existing rules, the more willing players are to letting them be  house-ruled for the sake of narrative event/campaign in my experience.  Fortifications come to mind. 

 

 

[Marshal Mittens]

I personally don't play much fan made content, though I would strongly consider looking at some of the PDF units being reballanced, such as the super heavy tanks costing much more than their better legion counterparts or even more than a warhound titan. 

That said, if a player had a fluffy unit from the books that they had built and painted that was not broken and it was just a friendly gzme, which is pretty much the only sort of game I play these days, I would probably not have a problem with them running it. 

[General Zodd]

It entirely depends on context. If you’re fortunate enough to have a bunch of gamers who play against each other regularly and fancy something different, then tinkering with fan made rules can be great fun! If you tend to play against a wide range of casual contacts, like in a large club setting, then it’s best to assume you’ll be using only official rules, rather than have a long conversation every time you’re arranging a game.

Personally, I find fan made rules have a place where they enrich, rather than replace. However a good example was early in Titanicus’s run, where the official matched play scenarios were widely regarded as rubbish. A set of fan made scenarios were widely adopted as the unofficial standard until a better official set came out. But otherwise I’ve only seen them take off in isolated gaming groups. Even then, it should be done in the knowledge that playing games outside that circle should revert to official only.

[MARK0SIAN]

There is some good fan made stuff out there and it can definitely give individual events a unique flavour which is great, but I’m with those that say the edition is far too new to warrant extensive fan made formats or alterations. Let the edition breathe for a bit and adapt, let players find their feet with it and see what level of ongoing support it gets from FW. If you’re not happy after a year or so then maybe the fan stuff could gain some traction if it solves any glaring issues that emerge with the game but for now I’ll be sticking with the official stuff.

[Volth]

No game is perfect, but GW seems to have the habit of being far from it. HH however seems quite balanced to me, like a game that is here to stay and don't change too much and just be neat. What do you guys think? Will there be the release-mill like in 40k which almost forcefully creates imbalances and shuffles forces and even units with releases, updates and FAQs so weirdly that buying up is must to play mildly competetive or will it stay to be an enjoyable game.