How are you liking HH 2.0 so far?

[Pacific81]

Honest question: If your army from 1st ed is currently unplayable because it doesnt have any rules or has been nerfed so as to make it unplayable.. Why not keeping playing 1st edition until that scenario changes?

If you bought a brand new games console with only a single game, which you didn't like or became bored with, you'd probably look at the big game collection you held from your other console. You wouldn't sit there staring at a wall saying "oh well".

I have seen this happen so many times with GW games over the years - they seem to paralyse a community with lack of new releases, or by making them wait for new things for them to buy, and everyone is convinced that 'new' is the only way when you're already sat on probably £1000s of stuff that you could play with.

Sorry if it sounds like I am going off on one - I am sure that a lot of hobbyists are just doing this already but it does seem to cause such constenation in the community and people (understandably) almost in tears because a sloppy line of rules writing has made their £2000 army unusable.. Why not slowly back away, pick up the first edition rules for a while longer?

[General Zodd]

7 hours ago, SkimaskMohawk said:

It's not like they're designing and manufacturing these things spontaneously; they've been sitting around for a couple of years. 

As you said, it's 3 months out and new players who wanted to play melee legions are left in the lurch with no plastic option. The release schedule should have been shuffled if they wanted to keep it optimized for their drip-feed release style, but why do that when you can channel the sales into the resin models? It's 340 cad for 20 resin ones compared to 95 cad for 20 plastic tacs. Pretty easy reason to see why they released all the non-essential heavy supports before the troops that drive a build.

I’m well aware of the lead in time on designing new kits. The limiting factor is far more likely to be production time on the plastic machines, then, on top of that is the considerations of sensible release windows so you’re not cannibalising your sales by flooding an audience with too many things at the same time.

Now, if we’re talking about what they chose to prioritise, I can definitely sympathise. I’ve yet to even consider buying a Sicaran, and I won’t get a Kratos until my army is much bigger. I also have resin Breachers that I cursed my way through building. Plastic troop choices would have been preferable to me, but I suspect they think that big funky tanks drive more sales, I don’t know.

However, the point I was taking issue with was the claim (made by Sarabando) that we were on a drip feed of releases, when there’s no justification that I can see for being so doom-mongery about it. There’s things to be annoyed about, absolutely, but the hobby community can be wearyingly negative about things already, without conjuring more “issues” up to complain about.

To summarise, some of the releases they’ve chosen may not be what we would have prioritised, but by what metric is the sheer quantity we’ve had a cause for concern that they’re not supporting the game adequately?

[Xenith]

9 hours ago, SkimaskMohawk said:

As you said, it's 3 months out and new players who wanted to play melee legions are left in the lurch with no plastic option.

I think it was 4 years from the first primaris until we got a primaris non-character model with a chainsword? Hopefully it won't be that long! As the bolters are on the tactical frames, I'd expect an entirely new frame, as opposed to an upgrade sprue. 

[The Scorpion]

33 minutes ago, Xenith said:

I think it was 4 years from the first primaris until we got a primaris non-character model with a chainsword? Hopefully it won't be that long! As the bolters are on the tactical frames, I'd expect an entirely new frame, as opposed to an upgrade sprue. 

Primaris is a case apart. They were pumping redundant ranged units long before they remembered melee

[SkimaskMohawk]

51 minutes ago, Xenith said:

I think it was 4 years from the first primaris until we got a primaris non-character model with a chainsword? Hopefully it won't be that long! As the bolters are on the tactical frames, I'd expect an entirely new frame, as opposed to an upgrade sprue. 

I mean, they also never included assault intercessors in the rules until they were available to buy.

[Stitch5000]

On 9/21/2022 at 6:45 PM, Claws and Effect said:

Okay, I'm a little annoyed by the FAQ in one specific instance. 

They broke my Primarch. 

Primarchs all have the Fearless rule. And the FAQ says Fearless units can't use Shrouded saves. So RAW Corax can't use the 4+ Shrouded his armor grants him on his datasheet. 

You can't get Shrouded rolls in combat anyway, which is arguably the only place Corax does anything worth doing, and you are generally running him in a squad for ablative wounds on the way into combat, so I think "broke" is a bit of a strong word... For me it's a non-event really.

[SkimaskMohawk]

21 minutes ago, Stitch5000 said:

You can't get Shrouded rolls in combat anyway, which is arguably the only place Corax does anything worth doing, and you are generally running him in a squad for ablative wounds on the way into combat, so I think "broke" is a bit of a strong word... For me it's a non-event really.

A 6 wound character with a 2+/4+/4++ and IWND 5+ should be the ablative wounds for the unit he's rolling with, especially when he can reroll 1s on the damage mitigation. The character rules let you spread the wound pool with very little risk, and he allows things like dark fury to be taken on foot instead of deepstrike.

Idk, he had a clear set of mechanics based around a concept and now can't use them at all. The rules don't work; they are...broken. 

[Brother Sutek]

3 hours ago, Xenith said:

I think it was 4 years from the first primaris until we got a primaris non-character model with a chainsword? Hopefully it won't be that long! As the bolters are on the tactical frames, I'd expect an entirely new frame, as opposed to an upgrade sprue. 

I'm still waiting the Primarius Lt codex, they must have released 20 of those by now lol.

[Stitch5000]

2 hours ago, SkimaskMohawk said:

A 6 wound character with a 2+/4+/4++ and IWND 5+ should be the ablative wounds for the unit he's rolling with, especially when he can reroll 1s on the damage mitigation. The character rules let you spread the wound pool with very little risk, and he allows things like dark fury to be taken on foot instead of deepstrike.

Idk, he had a clear set of mechanics based around a concept and now can't use them at all. The rules don't work; they are...broken. 

Yes, it obviously doesn't work and most likely isn't as intended, but it really hasn't broken the character. It has had ZERO bearing on my decision to include Corax in an army and probably won't effect how I use him or the Retinue he's with... Ie. I will get them into combat as fast as possible. It's just making a fuss about a theoretical situation that in practical terms has very little bearing on the game, which kinda explains why it wasn;t picked up in playtesting. 

[sarabando]

8 hours ago, Pacific81 said:

Honest question: If your army from 1st ed is currently unplayable because it doesnt have any rules or has been nerfed so as to make it unplayable.. Why not keeping playing 1st edition until that scenario changes?

If you bought a brand new games console with only a single game, which you didn't like or became bored with, you'd probably look at the big game collection you held from your other console. You wouldn't sit there staring at a wall saying "oh well".

I have seen this happen so many times with GW games over the years - they seem to paralyse a community with lack of new releases, or by making them wait for new things for them to buy, and everyone is convinced that 'new' is the only way when you're already sat on probably £1000s of stuff that you could play with.

Sorry if it sounds like I am going off on one - I am sure that a lot of hobbyists are just doing this already but it does seem to cause such constenation in the community and people (understandably) almost in tears because a sloppy line of rules writing has made their £2000 army unusable.. Why not slowly back away, pick up the first edition rules for a while longer?

so my IF army is 50 Indomni terminators 2 box dreads and a few squads of PA marines. Its 90% unuseable as is. Sure i could play 1ed but thats not what my community is playing, sure i could proxy them as tartaros or cataphractii terminators but if that was the army i wanted i would have made that. GW dropped the ball on a lot of the rules writing. alot of the legacy units could have been ported over almost as they were with little to no changes without causing major issues but instead they got bad rewrites and frankly questionable changes. (indomni becoming troops) Sure its a free PDF and its a tide me over rules for legacy units but it still GW should have higher standards, if you are going to claim to be the industry leader start acting like it.  I got off easy compared to the Ad mech guys my local hangouts have been just brutally depressing since their rules got dropped. 

[Stitch5000]

26 minutes ago, sarabando said:

so my IF army is 50 Indomni terminators 2 box dreads and a few squads of PA marines. Its 90% unuseable as is. Sure i could play 1ed but thats not what my community is playing, sure i could proxy them as tartaros or cataphractii terminators but if that was the army i wanted i would have made that. GW dropped the ball on a lot of the rules writing. alot of the legacy units could have been ported over almost as they were with little to no changes without causing major issues but instead they got bad rewrites and frankly questionable changes. (indomni becoming troops) Sure its a free PDF and its a tide me over rules for legacy units but it still GW should have higher standards, if you are going to claim to be the industry leader start acting like it.  I got off easy compared to the Ad mech guys my local hangouts have been just brutally depressing since their rules got dropped. 

I hate to point it out, but your 50 Indomitus Terminators, 2 box dreads and some marines isn't really a "heresy army", is it? 

Most of these units were only ever included in HH rules because there was nothing else that was available, and they were intended as stand-ins for stuff that would hopefully one day exist (which they now do). 

[Noserenda]

I suspect perhaps the order of releases might have been influenced by FW sales? So its front loaded with tanks and dreadnoughts because they are big sellers while the resin infantry are a big turn off for a lot of people due to cost? Either way its not great for new players to have a load of heavy support options but to have to pay though the nose or go 3rd party for troops! Or HQ for that matter, but at least resin characters feel a bit more like an investment.

As for 1st edition, eh, its so far down the list of games id like to play, 2nd at least has exciting new flaws :D :P

[Noserenda]

Just now, Stitch5000 said:

I hate to point it out, but your 50 Indomitus Terminators, 2 box dreads and some marines isn't really a "heresy army", is it? 

Most of these units were only ever included in HH rules because there was nothing else that was available, and they were intended as stand-ins for stuff that would hopefully one day exist (which they now do). 

Indomitus suits are just as available in the heresy as the others, particularly fluffy for Imperial fists even as its what they are often depicted wearing in the books. Cataphracts have been around about as long as official heresy rules, so they were never a stand in! 

Prior to FW's official support sure, but back then we were all hunting dreadnought shins for conversion ;) 

[Stitch5000]

1 minute ago, Noserenda said:

Indomitus suits are just as available in the heresy as the others, particularly fluffy for Imperial fists even as its what they are often depicted wearing in the books. Cataphracts have been around about as long as official heresy rules, so they were never a stand in! 

Prior to FW's official support sure, but back then we were all hunting dreadnought shins for conversion ;) 

I'm fairly sure that's because most of the BL authors just used the term "Indomitus" because it sounded cool. The FW black book background makes little to no reference to it.

[SkimaskMohawk]

1 hour ago, Stitch5000 said:

Yes, it obviously doesn't work and most likely isn't as intended, but it really hasn't broken the character. It has had ZERO bearing on my decision to include Corax in an army and probably won't effect how I use him or the Retinue he's with... Ie. I will get them into combat as fast as possible. It's just making a fuss about a theoretical situation that in practical terms has very little bearing on the game, which kinda explains why it wasn;t picked up in playtesting. 

....what?

He's getting shot; that's not a "theoretical situation", it's a reality. Either by moving up the board, or after he's killed a unit in combat, him and his unit will be getting shot every single game by attacks that shroud would activate against. And not just because he's a terrifying melee threat, but also because he's worth a high amount of VPs; he's a win condition for both players. 

The loss of shroud means that ap 2 wounds go from an 83%/75% chance to save to 50%, with ap3+ wounds a 94%/91% to 83%. The math difference alone makes it have a lot of bearing on the unit, especially as he gives up so many VPs. 

The " theoretical situation with little very little bearing on the game" is obviously ridiculous; any reasonable competent warhammer player would agree. 

And just out of curiosity, how much are you investing to get that retinue moving quickly? A warmonger for deepstrike, or a proteus for a move-disembark-charge with corax leading the conga line? Since he doesn't have a "warhawk jump pack" to unlock the option for the retinue, it's pretty much always better to pay less points for the dark fury and move up the board on foot or deepstrike. That being said, jamming a unit into a proteus or Spartan would explain why you don't expect the unit to be shot a lot. It's just a massive overinvestment compared to the dark fury. 

EDIT: the takes are just getting hotter with indomitus and box dreads not being real heresy units lol. 

 

Edited September 23, 2022 by SkimaskMohawk

[Noserenda]

38 minutes ago, Stitch5000 said:

I'm fairly sure that's because most of the BL authors just used the term "Indomitus" because it sounded cool. The FW black book background makes little to no reference to it.

Theres plenty the black books dont cover :D Its well established background though.

[Petitioner's City]

1 hour ago, Stitch5000 said:

I'm fairly sure that's because most of the BL authors just used the term "Indomitus" because it sounded cool. The FW black book background makes little to no reference to it.

Given one mentioner of the indomitus is John French, and JF wrote a fair bit of the FW black books.....

[BitsHammer]

4 hours ago, sarabando said:

so my IF army is 50 Indomni terminators 2 box dreads and a few squads of PA marines. Its 90% unuseable as is. Sure i could play 1ed but thats not what my community is playing, sure i could proxy them as tartaros or cataphractii terminators but if that was the army i wanted i would have made that. GW dropped the ball on a lot of the rules writing. alot of the legacy units could have been ported over almost as they were with little to no changes without causing major issues but instead they got bad rewrites and frankly questionable changes. (indomni becoming troops) Sure its a free PDF and its a tide me over rules for legacy units but it still GW should have higher standards, if you are going to claim to be the industry leader start acting like it.  I got off easy compared to the Ad mech guys my local hangouts have been just brutally depressing since their rules got dropped. 

Pretty sure GW has only ever claimed to make the best models, not the best games 

[Brother Sutek]

18 minutes ago, BitsHammer said:

Pretty sure GW has only ever claimed to make the best models, not the best games 

Premium models.

[Biscuittzz]

Anyone who would argue with you that Corax was never meant to have his Shrouded isn't worth playing and I'd make sure to find out beforehand.

He was written with an inbuilt Shrouded (4+) and 'The Shadowed Lord' rule - you're telling me the intent was for both rules to never be usable? Ok...

[panascope]

7 hours ago, sarabando said:

so my IF army is 50 Indomni terminators 2 box dreads and a few squads of PA marines. Its 90% unuseable as is. Sure i could play 1ed but thats not what my community is playing, sure i could proxy them as tartaros or cataphractii terminators but if that was the army i wanted i would have made that. GW dropped the ball on a lot of the rules writing. alot of the legacy units could have been ported over almost as they were with little to no changes without causing major issues but instead they got bad rewrites and frankly questionable changes. (indomni becoming troops) Sure its a free PDF and its a tide me over rules for legacy units but it still GW should have higher standards, if you are going to claim to be the industry leader start acting like it.  I got off easy compared to the Ad mech guys my local hangouts have been just brutally depressing since their rules got dropped. 

Indomitus Terminators and Box Dreads are good though, what’s the problem here exactly? 

[Gorgoff]

15 hours ago, sarabando said:

so my IF army is 50 Indomni terminators 2 box dreads and a few squads of PA marines. Its 90% unuseable as is. 

That isn't true.

Do have the PDF GW released? Indomitus and Castaferrum Dreadnoughts are in there. Both with really good rules as well so totally usable. 

[Noserenda]

Probably run out of troop slots though?

[Gorgoff]

45 minutes ago, Noserenda said:

Probably run out of troop slots though?

If so he couldn't run this army in 1ed as well, no?

 

[Dont-Be-Haten]

So we are in month 4, and I have enjoyed how this thread has turned into more of a musings of the evolution of the game state as we press forward.

I think there is definitely a lot of good out of this game. The most important breath of fresh air I have found is getting back to the customization side of things with 30k and how that used to be the identity of 40k. I understand a lot of the new kits are still rather limiting in customization, but you have a wide plethora of options!

The consuls are so cool and offer such a wide diverse way to play!

Knights are good, but they aren't just curb stompingly OP. Though I'm glad they brought back stompy feet. A knight is still going to get crushed by the hard hitting primarchs or leviathan dreads, while armingers can be killed in a single round of combat by contemptors, armingers, knights especially, really needed brutal (2) imo.

The core rulebook games are enjoyable, though I really like the modifiable options encouraged by the book to play. I prefer scoring each round versus end of game scoring, War of Lies is probably on the ban list in our group simply because it's too swingy, but not ruled out entirely.*

I have found that a lot of the previous 40k edition games hold up today in 30k. We've modified sieze ground from 5th edition to score by turn, starting in Turn 2, with a 1:2:3 scoring system based on where your objectives are in each zone, followed by customized secondaries, i.e. StWL, Kill More etc. that has been very well recieved. But we've also played end game scoring as well such as a modified capture and control.

Ambush is an extremely fun map and is so refreshing to have a narrative board in a core rule setting. It is also good that almost all of the older campaign books, boards, and rules (with very minimal tweaks) has all felt really good in 30k!

*What I mean by this is everyone I've rolled against on that mission has asked for it to be re-rolled, or we just opt out of it.

Edited September 24, 2022 by Dont-Be-Haten