HH 2.0 melee weapons balanced properly?

[MegaVolt87]

I just find it odd that there are very obvious best in slot picks, like the power maul and lance/ carabal lance etc. Things like the power sword and power axe feel very left behind. The overall melee weapons balance feels not right is the best way I can explain it. Thoughts ? 

[BitsHammer]

I can't speak for every weapon, but I feel like the Night Lords specific melee weapons are over-costed. To take them you have to take a Power Weapon, then can replace that for an additional points cost. If they were available instead of a power weapon at their points costs I think they'd be interesting side-grades, but instead they're a straight points tax for what could have been cool options.

[Kizzdougs]

I feel like the melee weapons are way more balanced now than they were before. Previously power axes, power/chain fists were the best options because of their AP2. Now that a lot of weapons have been given Rending or Breaching they have become viable alternatives. The power sword and mace have both been made more viable and the thunder hammer is much better than before and a great alternative to the power fist. Also, the charnable weapons are better than before and lightning claws are much better. 

The best options (axes and power/chain fists) stayed the same, and everything else got a boost to make them more viable.

[Marshal Mittens]

I think Power Axes are decent, but I have not done math on it. AP2 seems great though. The Terranic Greatswords seem really good. 

[Sir Frenchy]

Overall, I'd say that each basic power weapons are pretty well balanced between each others. There was, is and always will be one that will be slightly better than the rest, but we're not in the land of power axes and fists anymore so that is a positive in my book.
Swords, maces and lances all have a place and use and I've been having some unexpected good results using spears in my latest game.
Now, when it comes to more exotic (and expensive) weaponery such as legion specific weapons, fists, TH or paragon blades, I found that this is where the balance is actually the weakest. This is the land where brutal is king or need a pletora of special rule and bonuses to keep up with those weapons.

[Misterduch]

From what I played regular melee weapons all have pros and cons, and I may pick any of them depending on how I feel like. My favourite is probably the power maul, least would be the power sword.

I haven't looked that much at charnabals but if I wanted a dedicated duelist I'd probably pick one of them.

Expensive power weapons are a bit less balanced, with the thunderhammer & chainfist pulling ahead and lighting claws being fine.

Paragon blades seem to me to be rather expensive for what you get

[Brofist]

Yeah I agree, this is the best weapon balance we've had in a while. It isn't perfect, but you've got niches for many things.

[MegaVolt87]

After another read through, I narrowed down to power sword and heavy chainsword as me not seeing, well why I would need them even vs the other general melee weapons. 

[Valkyrion]

I'm sure there's a LEGION <whatever> that makes things an autotake, but I would generally go for for power swords or lightning claw(s) on my sergeants, because they are likely to be challenged so I want to fight at I or better. 

Am I wrong with that idea?

[Marshal Mittens]

Power Swords do seem weaker than other options,  but swords look so cool I will usually take some anyway, I think. 

[Brofist]

You take power swords when you can't take twin LCs or if you want to save points

[Brother_Angelus]

19 hours ago, BitsHammer said:

I can't speak for every weapon, but I feel like the Night Lords specific melee weapons are over-costed. To take them you have to take a Power Weapon, then can replace that for an additional points cost. If they were available instead of a power weapon at their points costs I think they'd be interesting side-grades, but instead they're a straight points tax for what could have been cool options.

Generally you're paying for Shred, which is an upgrade that realistically should require some cost. It's just inconsistent when some Legions get their specialist weapons with extra rules as a straight swap, but all of the NL ones are an additional cost.

Another beef with NL specifically is the need for a power weapon initially. It increases the cost of most of the weapons to a point were they aren't competitive with their contemporaries. If it were presented as 'upgrade a chainsword for X, or a power weapon for Y' you could close the gap a bit with different point costs.  As it stands terminators do quite well out of them, as they start with a power weapon, while characters in power armour, who don't come with built in power weapons, are paying too much.

Edited September 6, 2022 by Brother_Angelus

[BitsHammer]

2 hours ago, Brofist said:

You take power swords when you can't take twin LCs or if you want to save points

That's what I did with my Cataphractii. I considered a single LC because shred is easily worth 5 points, but I decided to keep them cheaper because I basically expect to lose some models and didn't want to pull power fists right away.

On Tacticals I prefer the LC for shred because it helps them mop up but I basically want Tacticals melee reasonably okay thanks to how Night Lords play.

[BitsHammer]

2 hours ago, Brother_Angelus said:

Generally you're paying for Shred, which is an upgrade that realistically should require some cost. It's just inconsistent when some Legions get their specialist weapons with extra rules as a straight swap, but all of the NL ones are an additional cost.

Another beef with NL specifically is the need for a power weapon initially. It increases the cost of most of the weapons to a point were they aren't competitive with their contemporaries. If it were presented as 'upgrade a chainsword for X, or a power weapon for Y' you could close the gap a bit with different point costs.  As it stands terminators do quite well out of them, as they start with a power weapon, while characters in power armour, who don't come with built in power weapons, are paying too much.

Yeah, the cost over the top of the cost of a power weapon is my issue with them honestly. Like I mentioned if they were taken instead of a power weapon (like "any model who can take a power weapon may instead take one of the following for the associated points cost") I'd think they'd be an interesting side grade. Like chainblades have worse base AP than power swords (though they have breaching which is weaker than rending for what it can target) but gain shred and +1 strength. Chainglaives are two-handed, but get +2 strength instead. Those are interesting trades for what a power sword offers. 

Well, at least Night Raptors get to have a good selection without being punished with an overly high points cost.

[Brother_Angelus]

17 minutes ago, BitsHammer said:

Like chainblades have worse base AP than power swords (though they have breaching which is weaker than rending for what it can target) but gain shred and +1 strength.

I don't have my books right here, but aren't they both AP3 base and Rending/Breaching are interchangeable for non-vehicle targets?

So you're getting +1S and Shred, which should carry some cost.

[BitsHammer]

5 minutes ago, Brother_Angelus said:

I don't have my books right here, but aren't they both AP3 base and Rending/Breaching are interchangeable for non-vehicle targets?

So you're getting +1S and Shred, which should carry some cost.

Ah you're right. I don't know why I keep trying to think that swords have better AP. Either way 20 points for a buffed chainsword is a bit much. That or I'm overly frugal with my points.

[The Unseen]

The BA perdition weapons were similarly reined in.

The sword as an example gains brutal and two-handed, so you lose an attack and gain brutal for 5 pts on top of the power weapon, which is maybe sometimes worth it?

But it's definitely not worth on basic sergeants since they'd just get 3 attacks on the charge, and 2 afterwards.

[Xenith]

4 hours ago, BitsHammer said:

Either way 20 points for a buffed chainsword is a bit much.

If the chainsabre is AP3 +1S Rend/shred, then thinking of it as a buffed chainsword is not right, it's more a buffed power sword, which is 15pts. So you pay 5pts to give something shred, which is probably ok. MC'ing a weapon is 10pts and that's usually a good option for a single reroll. Again, probably not on a sergeant due to fewer attacks, but that's why previous editions made weapons cheaper for sergeants. 

[Mandragola]

I think it's fair to say there isn't great balance between the power weapons. In all honesty I don't think the balance in the game is all that good in general. There's no way tacticals should pay 5 points for chainswords, that a Glaive is worth more points than a Falchion and so on and so on. 

The main thing that helps balance in 30k is when everyone is using the same core army list, as we mostly do. For this reason I'm not too worried about the power weapons that everyone can take. But for some Legions their specific stuff, whether that's units or equipment, can be the imbalanced thing. Raven's talons vs the weird Night Lord things are an example of pretty serious imbalance between Legions.

[Brofist]

For WS, I have a beef with powerglaves costing more than what's basically a lightning claw in performance. Breaching instead of rending is also a bummer. My biggest beef though? Can't easily spam them in units that would want them for fun thematic lists.

Edited September 6, 2022 by Brofist

[BitsHammer]

Yeah, I think when we get down to it, the least balanced melee weapons have to be the legion ones.

[Gorgoff]

On 9/5/2022 at 7:09 AM, Kizzdougs said:

I feel like the melee weapons are way more balanced now than they were before. Previously power axes, power/chain fists were the best options because of their AP2. Now that a lot of weapons have been given Rending or Breaching they have become viable alternatives. The power sword and mace have both been made more viable and the thunder hammer is much better than before and a great alternative to the power fist. Also, the charnable weapons are better than before and lightning claws are much better. 

The best options (axes and power/chain fists) stayed the same, and everything else got a boost to make them more viable.

Pretty much this.

I may add that I think a lot of people ruin the game for themselves by theoryhammering it to death. I think every ccw is just fine. Some are better suited for job A and some for job B.

 

[BitsHammer]

3 hours ago, Gorgoff said:

Pretty much this.

I may add that I think a lot of people ruin the game for themselves by theoryhammering it to death. I think every ccw is just fine. Some are better suited for job A and some for job B.

Aye, too much theoryhammer can be poison. That said it's never bad to jave an open conversation to work out what are the duds since some options may be so niche in their role that they become nigh useless.

[Hfran Morkai]

I guess I just really wish the Legions had the same access to Legion specific weapons, even if they adjusted points cost.

 

So some Legions can only give IC's Legion specific weapons but others can give them to any character.

[Noserenda]

Id definitely feels like different people, or different times worked on the weapons so they havent come out particularly even but ive barely done much melee in this edition yet to confirm anything. 

Special melee weapons are definitely a point to focus on as they tend to be used extensively of tentpole units, like, your veterans being a bit poop is alright but what you give your command squads or officers has to Work or its going to feel much worse, see Caedre weapons last edition.