Story vs setting

[Captain Idaho]

12 hours ago, Marshal Reinhard said:

Quite annoyign to see you constantly claim the role of representative agent of  the long term customer segment. You feel alienated, so all long term fans feel alienated, they're all being actively pushed away. That's just how it is, huh?

 

Constantly? It's my opinion in this topic and I've kept it to this topic and only posted a handful of times to have an actual discussion.

 

But you misinterpreted what I've said. Not once have I said I feel alienated so all long term fans feel alienated. I've only ever talked about my position and mentioned that other people do feel the same (it being your interpretation that I mean all) which I need to defend as if it's not allowed.

 

Seems like an unfair response to everything I've said. I've not once said anyone else is wrong. I've said my position and justified it. You don't have to agree with it, that's cool, that's lire.

 

It is but my position. Not more right nor wrong than anyone else's. I certainly don't question anyone else's opinion in the sense whether they have a right to say something, which seems to be what you're saying here?

 

Correct me if I'm wrong?

Edited October 11, 2022 by Captain Idaho

[Marshal Reinhard]

On 10/10/2022 at 7:09 PM, Captain Idaho said:

GW have actively pushed existing, long term customers away

I'll requote what I quoted last time. Read it. It does not really come across as you presenting your personal solo opinion, now does it? Its a very absolute statement. Even outisde of isolation, with the rest of the post does it really come across as your "humble opinion". You can backpedal that you aren't presenting it as fact, but its a common theme in your posting over a longer period  now (in my view anyway), and after seeing it one too many times I spoke up.

 

You can feel I'm being unfair. I don't particularily feel that I am.

[Captain Idaho]

On 10/10/2022 at 6:09 PM, Captain Idaho said:

I have no doubt the majority of people who signed up to the GW Twitch stream are new players, but I doubt that is an accurate indicator of the numbers involved.

 

But that's the point. GW have actively pushed existing, long term customers away and one of the ways relevant to this topic is the changes to the setting and way they present the narrative.

 

Is that higher than the new customers coming in? Do we know the book sales?

 

Lastly, no successful business looks to alienate its existing consumer base in favour of a new set of consumers. That's just massively risky. Many of the new business are into it because of the models not the narrative, so their joining our hobby is largely irrelevant to the changing of the background material.

 

I don't agree with the concepts of one customer or another (new vs old)... why not have both satisfied?

 

Unfortunately you've missed the whole context of the sentence. I've clearly, before and after that statement, plus in the previous posts, talked about customers generally and in previous posts stipulated quite clearly that the position I'm holding is not absolutist.

 

If you really are following what I'm saying so ardently then you probably just misunderstood what I've written?

 

Context is important and I'm not always able (nor is it appropriate) to reiterate everything in a topic I've said on a subject that is a moving discussion with every new post I make. My advice is to check through the topic for a Frater's posts in a topic if you've missed context, though the context was fairly clearly defined in the rest of the post you snipped it from, so not sure what more I can do to help.

Edited October 11, 2022 by Captain Idaho

[Karhedron]

8 hours ago, gideon stargreave said:

  

9 hours ago, Triszin said:

I very much like the story advancing.

Why? Also, can I ask, when did you get into GW and how? I'd be interested about hearing from others about this too.

 

I can't speak for Triszin but I got into the GW way back in 1st edition. The "metaplot" (if you could call it tat back then) didn't really exist but elements of fiction indicated that it was a progressing Universe. The biggest contribution to this was Ian Watson's Inquisition War trilogy. This drew on earlier fluff in the Realm of Chaos books about the nature of the Emperor, it also hinted that there might be a way to reincarnate him as god in the Warp.

 

2nd edition came around and then 3rd. The storyline, continued to progress. The Necrons were brought in and their ancient rivalry with the Eldar was unveiled. In particular, the Talismans of Vaul were revealed to be the same Blackstone Fortresses that Abaddon had looted from the Gothic Sector during the 12th Black Crusade. Ghazkull unleashed the 3rd Armageddon War. Then a year or so later, The 13th Black Crusade happened at the end of 3rd edition. A massive multi-player world-wide campaign that we were promised would decide the direction of the fluff for 4th edition and onwards.

 

I waited with baited breath only for it to turn out that 4th edition stayed stuck with Abaddon poised over Cadia. It was as if the story was suddenly frozen. For the next 10 years I kept waiting for the storyline to progress but it was not until the very end of 7th that GW finally changed its mind and started updating the background again. To me 8th and 9th have felt like a welcome return to form while 4th-7th were the aberration. But I can respect other people having different opinions. The current state of the game reminds me more of how it was when I started out.

[Gattopardo]

I think this thread neatly illustrates the bind GW are in. On the one hand, there are people who dislike the progression of major plotlines and prefer a static setting.  And on the other, there are those who find that frustrating and disappointing. Nor do I think the divide between these two broad camps necessarily aligns with experience or time in the hobby. You'll find veterans who dislike progress and veterans who dislike stasis, for example. So there's no clear route to please everyone here.

 

As a hobbyist of some 30 years now I have to say that I don't think stasis or lack of progression is some kind of inherent feature of 40k as a whole. The period from 2nd thorough to much of 3rd edition for example did not feel that way at all. The difference then was that large swathes of the galaxy were unexplored or merely hinted at. So the Necrons, Dark Eldar, Traitor Legions and Tau could all be introduced or explored in depth for the first time. This provided progression without the need for major plotlines or advancement of the story. That's a key difference versus 40k today, where much more is explored and detailed so this type of progression is largely absent / impossible (with some exceptions, and of course there remain many gaps to fill - Dark Mech for example, but that would not feel like progress in the same way as we already know the Dark Mechanicum are a thing; it's just that they lack tabletop representation). 

 

So if there is to be any kind of progress it kind of has to be plot driven, and I think that's why we now see more of that. (The alternative is to make no changes at all, but I think that is a bad choice in what is a creative hobby and industry and it led to bad things in the studio too.)

 

That isn't to say that GW have made all the right choices. They definitely haven't. It's far from clear that loyalist primarchs returning is actually good for the setting (and I say that as a Dark Angels player who is very excited for the Lion). It takes too much mystery away and as others have said it creates an inevitable focus on these colossal figureheads when it would be better if the plotlines and stories focussed more on new and relatively anonymous characters (in my view). Also, the Primaris were bad and unnecessary (although let's not go there again!). It's also silly how GE feel that every campaign has to involve every faction, it leads to a mess that makes no narrative sense. Vigilus for example should only have had Imperial and Traitor forces involved (and maybe GSC). It would have been so much more credible done that way, but it wasn't because the game (and the miniatures) dominate over sensible narrative at times - although this has probably always been the case.

 

And despite moving the setting on, GW are weirdly allergic to killing off characters. The likes of Calgar, Mephiston, Ghaz, Fabius Bile, etc etc, these types of character should be dying every so often. This would add a sense of jeopardy and meaning to the narrative while enhancing the deadliness of the setting, which is often stated but then undermined when the key characters somehow survive every time. So, actually, GW could give us progression while in reality making very few changes that mean much on a galactic scale. I really don't understand why they don't do this as it's not like Calgar dying in the narrative would mean he couldn't or shouldn't have rules. 

 

So summing up I feel progress is good, definitely better than the alternative, but whether that progress needs to be as dramatic as it was with the Gathering Storm I don't know. A different model will be needed soon though. You can only find a Primarch once, after all.

[Scribe]

48 minutes ago, Gattopardo said:

So if there is to be any kind of progress it kind of has to be plot driven, and I think that's why we now see more of that. (The alternative is to make no changes at all, but I think that is a bad choice in what is a creative hobby and industry and it led to bad things in the studio too.)

 

I dont know that I can agree to this. The 'expansion' or 'progression' serves what purpose?

 

1. To tell new stories. Setting books, Campaign books, whatever. 10K years of 'history' is a very, very long time, and the galaxy is a big place. I noted this elsewhere I think, but the HH was 7 years, and it catapulted FW into overdrive, and we now have a growing selection of rules, and plastic kits, for HH 2.0.

 

2. To push plastic. Yes, we have now expanded on DE, AdMech, GSC, but we know are on Necron revision 3.0 (3rd, NewCrons, and 9th) and I dont think I need to remind anyone here, about just how spoiled Loyalist Marine players have been, especially Codex Compliant ones, who have gone from a constant stream of updates and kits, to now Primaris as a full range reboot.

 

GW didnt need to progress anything, when we can look at FW (HH, IA Books) and Space Marines, as proving the potential for expansion and new kits, all within the bounds of the setting, from 3rd, to pre-Gathering Storm.

[Bryan Blaire]

I agree with Gattopardo to an extent - much of the “expansion of the game” in 2nd and 3rd Editions (possibly even some of 4th) felt like exploring previous periods - things that were introduced came “from before”, etc., to some extent like a historical game about a period that you didn’t really know much about.  Eventually that sort of petered out and people began to mock GW with the “why is it that everything new is something that existed before, but we knew nothing about” line.  People would also complain and mock that GW was violating the “nature of the setting” when they tried to introduce new things that were actual innovations.  There was only so far they could go with introducing new things in that fashion.

Yes, GW, as a model-making company that sells a game you can play with them, does need to push plastic to stay in business.

As far as stories, there’s plenty of time frame for stories in the periods they have never really expanded prior to the 41st millennium, but the company may have actually been suffering in recruiting for writing due to the story shackles that “writing new things in historical tense” may have inflicted on the authors.  It may not have been at all, we don’t really know on that front.

 

I will agree that I think a lot of lore surrounding the recent introductions is not great quality.  Much of it is far too abrupt and doesn’t utilize things that had already been established in the lore much, leaving it feeling a bit disconnected to the wider whole, but other things, like campaign game books, feel like either a retread/repeat of similar story elements or just uninspired and lackluster.  I am also not a big fan of much of the GW gaming book lore anyway, present or past, and while I’d like a return to more of the “lore snippet” concept for the Era Indomitus rule books, with little in the way of actual story, I will also say that I don’t think this wouldn’t have solved issues for folks that the last couple of editions have introduced.

Edited October 12, 2022 by Bryan Blaire

[Scribe]

20 minutes ago, Bryan Blaire said:

People would also complain and mock that GW was violating the “nature of the setting” when they tried to introduce new things that were actual innovations.

 

As well they should, I bet I was one of them, when it came to innovation's for the Imperium. It IS against the nature of the setting, and can only be hand waved away by STC discovery so many times.

 

21 minutes ago, Bryan Blaire said:

Yes, GW, as a model-making company that sells a game you can play with them, does need to push plastic to stay in business.

 

Noted. Even pre-Primaris though, I'm pretty comfortable thinking that Astartes, is probably at least half of the catalog.

 

Where are my Chaos Legion specific units? Why do we only have Thousand Sons and Death Guard, and soon World Eaters? Why dont we have additional expansion on the Eldar? Why is it we are stuck with 1 unit for Harlequins? Where are my Exodites? Plastic Mandrakes? Grotesques? Where is the expansion on the Inquisition? The Ordo's?

 

Why is it, that Berzerkers are sitting on a kit from 1999, while we had what, 3 or 4 cuts of pre-Primaris Tactical Marines?

 

I dont buy it.

[Bryan Blaire]

I think that if you are going to mock both the “well it was here, but we didn’t talk about it” and the “well this is new/introduced by STC”, then you have pretty much ended any chance of new things coming out - if you don’t see how that might be a problem for a model company, I don’t know what to tell you.

 

I don’t disagree with the lack of all the model lines you said, I would have loved them too - then again, you may be seeing a lot of model production lack due to internal company politics, or possibility in ability to produce things adequately.  You are also very likely seeing the results of overwhelming sales of a single line - after all, why wouldn’t you produce and reproduce something that gets sold, at least in my experience as a game store manager from 1999-2002, in three to four times the amount of any other single model line (and likely at least that much for a large combined number of them - never really analyzed that while I ran the store) without even having to try pushing them?  You do actually have to recut molds, they do wear out - unless you intend to just keep recutting the same mold each time, if you have the money to invest, business-sense says to do that in your best selling line - in business, it doesn’t actually matter if that is a self-fulfilling prophecy - it cares not from whence the money flows, only that it flows…

 

’Not buying it’ doesn’t amount to anything.

Edited October 12, 2022 by Bryan Blaire

[Scribe]

3 minutes ago, Bryan Blaire said:

I think that if you are going to mock both the “well it was here, but we didn’t talk about it” and the “well this is new/introduced by STC”, then you have pretty much ended any chance of new things coming out - if you don’t see how that might be a problem for a model company, I don’t know what to tell you.

 

Do that, for the the Astartes. You know, the Loyalists who were absolutely spoiled rotten for choice for what, 20 years, compared to everyone else? Did we really really need Centurion's? Graviton Guns? For the army that had fully modular, kit bash friendly kits, in multiple for practically every Force Org slot?

 

The flood of Astartes kits, lead to yes eventually they ran out, and we know why, Marines sold like illicit drugs based on the word's of a few GW staff.

 

Hell, we then got RESIN Marines, over and over and over, and those sold well enough for a decade or so to continue the sale of niche armies/units. So I get it, we all get it, Marines have the profit marines of crack, fine.

 

Is it however a Chicken and an Egg? Dark Eldar reboot sold. Grey Knights? Where are the new kits? We finally, finally, have Sisters, AdMech, GSC, hell we are only now going to get Guard being updated, finally, after what feels like 20 years.

 

So when I say "I dont buy it." I mean I dont buy it that we needed the Gathering Storm + whatever, because ALLLLLLLLLL those updates that we have needed for decades?

 

It was the Tactical Kit v3, holding us back as far as the release window, as much as it was GW's unwarranted fear of the kits not selling, imo.

[Bryan Blaire]

It was the Gathering Storm and coming forward that dropped the large new Primaris vs. Chaos Marine box set that launched a lot of this new model proliferation… yes, of course all those other kits would have been nice before all that - but that doesn’t mean that there was funding to do them all, or that there was will in the company to take the risk on them without that (and you can’t ignore that latter element and claim to be looking at the situation from all angles, rather than just being biased toward personal tastes).

 

It also sounds like they learned more about tooling and the like from those endless loyalist Marine retreads, and the digital sculpting capabilities have greatly expanded things for them as well, from what we can see.  How did they get that funding for those new digital tools? Yes, it’s a chicken and egg problem, with a big fat golden goose as well.

 

Sure, it would have been nice if the narrative that led into the Primaris vs. Chaos war would have been done differently - in my mind it was, and I don’t really care much how GW did it - did that reboot lead to further and further sales though - of course it did.  I would also have rather they done the rules differently, but that’s a whole other topic.

[Scribe]

Fair enough. I think if we dug into the yearly/quarterly statements we would find GW could have been plenty profitable, but you know how it goes with public companies. They can never be profitable enough.

 

So, I get it in regards Marine spam, but...I guess I just draw my line well before you do in regards to 'they could have done X without Y'. :)

[Evil Eye]

29 minutes ago, Scribe said:

Grey Knights? Where are the new kits?

I'll be real, the Grey Knight plastic kits are borderline perfect anyway, older scale aside (which is pretty easy to rectify with very minor conversions anyway). I'm not sure I'd want new Grey Knight kits unless they have all the options of the current ones.

 

I will agree that Marines are pretty spoiled, which does make me chuckle when people beg for even more Loyalist Marine kits. Like even outside of Primaris, the Marine range is bloated as hell and mostly modern. Outside of Scouts and Terminators most of the Firstborn range looks fine.

 

I personally don't like the narrative-over-setting direction, however I will add two caveats there. For one, I feel if they hadn't put so much focus on the idea that games had to be set in the "present" and stripped their range of pre-Gathering Storm character models so you had the option of playing pre-Primaris Mephiston or Calgar, for instance, I'd be less annoyed about it. Detailing a timeline beyond 99999.M41 is good, forcing you to play in M42 less so. For another, I do feel we as a community kinda did this to ourselves by demanding GW "advance the storyline" for a near-decade (I remember people screaming about it for a loooooong time and even then I remember thinking it was a bad idea) and seeing some of those same people (nobody here I add) being upset about the fact they did exactly what they asked them to is darkly amusing. Like, you made your bed, now lie in it.

[Guest Triszin]

21 hours ago, gideon stargreave said:

Why? Also, can I ask, when did you get into GW and how? I'd be interested about hearing from others about this too.
I got into the hobby before there was a story at all, just some flavour boxes, and I struggle to connect with the metanarrative. When I fist began collecting and playing, all I had was a collection of loosely connected facts. 

eg
There were 20 primarchs, two are missing, here are their names. 
There is a corpse eperor on a throne on Earth

Space marines can get awards for certain acts. They also usually have markings and company organisations
Such and such a craftworld has a lot of psykers

etc.

So for me, to even imagine that there is a story is a bit strange, rather than stories set somewhere inside the information they provided. And the idea that they might by true, or affect the setting doesn't even matter. When black library was created, it was essentially fanfiction via warhammer monthy and inferno magazines. 

i'd be interested to know if other people here have similar experiences. I mean, of you got into the setting through the lore, then that lore is gonna have to be canon right?

I got into the hobby tale end of 3rd.

Why do I like advancement?

 

Stagnation is death.

Nothing new can happen only the same old story. No new big events, only retelling.

I strongly dislike, every thing is cannon and nothing is. And the torchlight excuse of,oh it was always there just never talked about is just bad.

 

I would like for gw to go a bit further on some things story wise.

Kill off characters. This won't remove them from the table top, warp time dilation works funny.

 

(Heck I'm in boat, kill off all wolf characters except 3. Lucas, Bjorn, ulrik)

I like primarchs, they are narrative points that force progression.

Even if all the not dead primarchs comeback, guess what? The xenos are greater than ever and they will have primarch tier characters.

Meaning imperium will always be on the back foot.

Edited October 12, 2022 by Triszin

[Karhedron]

10 hours ago, Gattopardo said:

That isn't to say that GW have made all the right choices. They definitely haven't. It's far from clear that loyalist primarchs returning is actually good for the setting (and I say that as a Dark Angels player who is very excited for the Lion). It takes too much mystery away and as others have said it creates an inevitable focus on these colossal figureheads when it would be better if the plotlines and stories focussed more on new and relatively anonymous characters (in my view).

 

I think the HH novels pretty much removed the aura of mystique around the Primarchs. Suddenly these legendary figures were revealed to be riddled with all-too-human flaws. Once that happened, I think it was inevitable that they would see the tabletop eventually. Really only a handful of books have centred on Guilliman so far (primarily the Dark Imperium trilogy). While he has cropped up in other books, things like the Dawn of Fire series are more about showing how the Imperium reacts to his return. There have also been plenty of good novels that have barely featured Guilliman at all like the recent Blood Angels books and the Great Work. People inevitably want to know what Guilliman is up to but there are plenty of good stories happening in places where he isn't. While the Primarchs may draw the spotlight to some extent, the rest of the 40K universe has not suffered from it overmuch IMHO.

[Scribe]

15 hours ago, Evil Eye said:

I'll be real, the Grey Knight plastic kits are borderline perfect anyway, older scale aside (which is pretty easy to rectify with very minor conversions anyway). I'm not sure I'd want new Grey Knight kits unless they have all the options of the current ones.

 

They are great, but the scale issue is too much now, for me. I get hung up on scale way and at this point the PA units are just not going to cut it, stood up beside a Primaris, and the Terminators will need to shift as well.

 

So this is a perfect example. We should have had at least 2 kits for GK, and likely a few HQ/Single Model options, with new scaling instead of what, 1 guy? Now we are going to wait till either a Campaign kit, or 10th update.

[Noserenda]

Story progression is good, especially when you can flip around and see events in the same period in different warzones effectively infinitely in theory, but the pacing is a sonofabitch to get right, something that RPGS/Wargames/CCGs have all struggled with over time! 

Its obvious that GW thought things were going too fast shortly after 8th launched and rapidly dialled it all back, ditching a whole bunch of arcs dead in place and i think rightfully focusing on Great Crusade 2 electric boogaloo, something which the 8th ed jump off just glossed over like we wouldnt be interested? 

Right now i think its sliiiightly too slow though, that might be influenced by just how forgettable a lot of the "core" plot has been in WD/Supplements compared to the Black library content which has been largely excellent in filling in blanks (except the SoS ofc hohoho!) in the Age Indomnitus. If the rumours bear out then perhaps things are set to improve in the sunset year of 9th to support all the cool characters coming, at least one can hope! 

[gideon stargreave]

The logical conclusion of playing a Story based game is what is rumoured in the News section. Yarrick gone from the game.

[Noserenda]

7 hours ago, gideon stargreave said:

The logical conclusion of playing a Story based game is what is rumoured in the News section. Yarrick gone from the game.

Why? Dead characters have been in the game pretty much forever, some like Death company Tycho were implicitly dead even in their first appearance :D The game having a story does not mean the army lists are beholden to it.

[Redcomet]

8 hours ago, gideon stargreave said:

The logical conclusion of playing a Story based game is what is rumoured in the News section. Yarrick gone from the game.

Gone from the codex because he, and all the other special characters with resin miniatures have been removed. 
 

And with him gone, there is room for new characters to learn about and watch grow from a nobody to a hero. 

[Scribe]

2 hours ago, Redcomet said:

Gone from the codex because he, and all the other special characters with resin miniatures have been removed. 
 

And with him gone, there is room for new characters to learn about and watch grow from a nobody to a hero. 

 

There's a bunch of resin in Necrons book no?

[Slave to Darkness]

On 10/13/2022 at 2:11 PM, Redcomet said:

Gone from the codex because he, and all the other special characters with resin miniatures have been removed. 
 

And with him gone, there is room for new characters to learn about and watch grow from a nobody to a hero. 

They could have given us new characters for marines then, but we got another Calgar, Tigerus, Mephiston, Ragnar...

[Bryan Blaire]

12 hours ago, Slave to Darkness said:

They could have given us new characters for marines then, but we got another Calgar, Tigerus, Mephiston, Ragnar...

I agree, some new characters would have been great, but some of the Marine characters would likely have still survived - however, we should be seeing some casualties among the front-line “hero” leaders of the Chapters.

 

The fact is that any changes are always going to risk player dissatisfaction - GW will have to accept that the risk is worth it for them.

Edited October 23, 2022 by Bryan Blaire

[Slave to Darkness]

4 hours ago, Bryan Blaire said:

I agree, some new characters would have been great, but some of the Marine characters would likely have still survived - however, we should be seeing some casualties among the front-line hero leaders of the Chapters.

 

The fact is that any changes are always going to risk player dissatisfaction - GW will have to accept that the risk is worth it for them.

People will be pissed regardless, kill off some characters, people will get over it, like we have to get over units being cut from codex books. 

 

[Redcomet]

I think they should kill of characters. But rules for them, and all the other cute content should be in a Legends compendium.