Rogal Dorn - The Emperor's Crusader book

[aa.logan]

I don’t know if it’s my indifference to Dorn or the fact that the book tried to cover so much, but this book really washed over me.

It was at it’s best when there were multiple Primarchs interacting and during the intervals from Rememberancers. Those parts I actively enjoyed. The rest, was very *shrug emoji*.

[theSpirea]

1 hour ago, cheywood said:

I wouldn’t assume Reynolds going long means BL is fine with every primarch novel going that long. Maybe Josh wrote more than necessary, as he often did, but BL liked the work and made an exception, or didn’t see an easy way to edit it down. It’s entirely plausible they’re asking writers to target 50k words.
 

Stories are tricky things. Even when you plan them rigorously you don’t always know how many words a scene will take. I agree it’s not impossible to tell a good story in 50-60k words, plenty of BL authors have, but I do think it makes the authorial process a lot harder when you don’t have the leeway to follow a story wherever it goes because of word count.

Perturabo is 60K, so is Lorgar and Corax. Don't think they were making an exception for Reynolds. Again, if the author knows their target is 45-55K words and they are not capable to tell a decent story within that limit, it's on them, not the publisher's fault. And Annandale's and Thorpe's HH stuff is on average pretty bad even by BL standards.

[cheywood]

10 minutes ago, theSpirea said:

Perturabo is 60K, so is Lorgar and Corax. Don't think they were making an exception for Reynolds. Again, if the author knows their target is 45-55K words and they are not capable to tell a decent story within that limit, it's on them, not the publisher's fault. And Annandale's and Thorpe's HH stuff is on average pretty bad even by BL standards.

The community consistently complains about shorter books being lacking. Widely praised short novels like Valdor are the exception. Even ADB’s short novel about Ragnar is regarded as his weakest work. It seems to me that when you have talented authors telling weaker than usual stories in the short novel format then the format’s the problem. It’s a structural issue. 
 

edit: and all the books you mention came out 4-5 years ago. Maybe the primarch series was at 60k and is now closer to 50k? I think it’s unlikely that authors are all skimping on word count for the Primarchs series specifically. 

Edited September 18, 2022 by cheywood

[aa.logan]

I will say I’m hoping that the last two books don’t have too big a page-count; I’m pretty sure that’ll fit on the same shelf as the others (at the expense of the characters ones) but it’s going to be tight…

[Tolmeus]

Not to offend anybody who wants to share his thoughts about the limits, efforts or qualities which should be applied to a Primarch book, but I would like to set the focus back on the novel 'Rogal Dorn - The Emperor's Crusader'. At least my hopes were to discuss elements about the novel in this thread.

On 9/18/2022 at 4:36 PM, aa.logan said:

but this book really washed over me.

It was at it’s best when there were multiple Primarchs interacting and during the intervals from Rememberancers.

I share your sentiment! I may repeat myself, but I felt that the setting was to big, so that the author had to dare the balancing act of describing the crusade sufficiently, while at the same time emphasising the role of Rogal Dorn. The result is rather unsatisfying.

Primarch to Primarch action is always welcome (if it is well written), but that apllies even more so for dialogues. I liked the ones in Jaghatai Khans novel more though.

The intervals of the Remembrancer were pure gold, as they were among the best written pieces in this history. Scarce, atmospheric and nonetheless revealing. Attributes I wished for the whole novel instead of these little parts :D
 

20 hours ago, aa.logan said:

but it’s going to be tight…

I would recommend that you give up the places in the Character Series, as this series will be continued anyway and the space will then be sufficient for your Primarch books. Also, one great collection you got there mate!

Edited September 19, 2022 by Tolmeus
Had to add additions

[Roomsky]

Rogal Dorn: The Emperor's Crusader - Gav Thorpe

I'm genuinely surprised at the lukewarm reactions to this one. This is now my favourite Thorpe novel, period. I almost can't believe he wrote it (but for one hallmark, which I'll touch on later.) There was zero interplay between intrigued and bored-out-of-my-skull (my usual Thorpe experience;) I was hooked beginning to end.

The pacing of this book is amazing; it should be the template for every battle or campaign Black Library writes about IMO. The only parts of a battle we see are the ones relevant to the plot. We get a strategium scene, we get a glimpse of the battlefield relevant to that goal, and then we're back with Dorn. No padding, no time wasted on "epic marine moment #5487" One of the reasons I'm almost shocked this is Thorpe is because I thought the action in The First Wall was so tedious, but it's bordering on perfect here.

This is also just exactly how primarchs need to operate more regularly. They're physically mighty, yes, but that's not their true value. Dorn wages a campaign from the strategium, and only rarely takes to the battlefield. The conflict is not "will the fists be able to beat these foes to death with their bare goddamn hands?" it's "Who is the foe? Where are they coming from, and how? Should we be diplomatic today, or strike out aggressively? Are we attacking the right systems?"

I like most of the characterization, too. Dorn is pitch-perfect, as is his interplay between his brother primarchs. His teachings to his sons are interspersed well, and we get a great idea of why he's valued in such a specific way. Also, it's only a single sentence, but I love the humanizing comment about his hair. Our main supporting characters are Dorn's head Huscarl at the time, a navigator, and a remembrancer. They all work well in breaking up the warfare and providing contrasting worldviews to Dorn's own.

And there's the ending. Some might call it cheap, but I think it's perfectly Warhammer. "Here we go genociding again."

Different strokes I guess, but if Thorpe can write more like this, he's jumped from likely skip to auto-purchase for me. This is everything I want out of a Primarchs novel.

The Flaws:

• The Templars have a good sub-plot, but we didn't really need more Siggy after his own book. Extra Rann may have been more effective use of page time?
• I dislike mid or post-heresy framing devices for Great Crusade stories.
• Thorpe wrote homeworld stories about two characters who didn't need it (Lorgar, Luther,) then didn't write a homeworld story about a character who did need it (Dorn.)
• There's no reason this book couldn't have been split into chapters.
• I'm now convinced Thorpe actually hates Lion El'Jonson. Horus, Fulgrim, and Dorn are all portrayed as dignified but idiosyncratic. The Lion is written like a teenager.

This is evidently To Taste, judging by this thread, but I loved it. 8/10 from me.

Edited October 7, 2022 by Roomsky

[Scribe]

3 minutes ago, Roomsky said:

This is evidently To Taste, judging by this thread, but I loved it. 8/10 from me.

I enjoyed Luther, maybe this one gets a look too.

[DarkChaplain]

Quote

• There's no reason this book couldn't have been split into chapters.

This... this ticks me off just reading here. So it's gonna be a pain in the arse to navigate in audio form especially.

Everything else though has me super excited now. Thanks, Roomsky!

[Tolmeus]

I am fascinated by how different the perspectives on the same story can be. I guess it really depends on the perspective or angle of the viewer. Where I saw significant weaknesses (already fully explained), Roomsky sees strengths. I'm glad that Dorn's story seems successful to you, whereas I unfortunately see the weaknesses rather than the strengths. In any case, your explanations reflect a different point of view very well!

[jaxom]

Just started reading it. Despite a lot of run-on sentences and some excess use of metaphor, I really like how Thorpe has made the primarchs seem young compared to how they are portrayed later. It's the first HH book I've read that gives a (brief) snapshot into what the Great Crusade was about before it settled into the "business as usual" and seeming inevitability we see in Horus Rising.

[Knockagh]

I like Gav’s writing and the stories good enough but boy does the no chapters thing really grate. I don’t read like that, very annoying.

[Morovir]

I actually didn't notice the lack of chapters - but then again, I read a lot of Discworld novels so I guess I'm used to it. Overall, I enjoyed the book, and found it a nice insight into the primarchs in the earlier years of the Great Crusade, where many of them were a lot more inexperienced. I also didn't find the Lion's attitude that grating, as

Spoiler

given the context that the Lion has only recently taken command of his Legion, after a time in which we known that the 1st was very much in decline, I can understand why the Lion would be so quick to take offense at suggestions that his Legion was acting out of cowardice.

I also appreciate that Gav

Spoiler

didn't have Sigismund fight and defeat the Dark Angels champion at the end of the book, which I was braced for happening ever since the first duel, which I feel would have been wholly unnecessary, and it was just enough for the Templars to learn the reasons why their champion lost rather than having a second duel.

One minor gripe I have with it though is 

Spoiler

Gav's ignorance of his own continuity with the Mournival. As much as I was impressed by the fact that he made the effort to use one of the names of former members of the Mournival from Horus Rising in Keyshen, his inclusion of Sejanus in the Mournival when in the opening of Angels of Caliban significantly later in the timeline had the two other members of the Mournival as Litus and Janipur was a bit grating, and messes up the entire progression of the Mournival for anyone trying to determine which Astartes were members of the Mournival at any time.

 

[DarkChaplain]

On 10/7/2022 at 6:23 PM, Roomsky said:

• I'm now convinced Thorpe actually hates Lion El'Jonson. Horus, Fulgrim, and Dorn are all portrayed as dignified but idiosyncratic. The Lion is written like a teenager.

 

I just started the novel, and my god the lack of chapters is annoying already. The Primarchs are landing on the planet right now, for reference.

 

That first interaction between Dorn, the Lion, Eidolon and later Fulgrim is actually one I loved. It's one that I don't feel is out of place, or making the Lion look like a fool. But it's also one I think that only Dorn could make happen. Even Fulgrim is taken aback by Dorn's rebuke, he would not have made that comment.

 

The Lion is quick to rise to anger at the comment.... but regains control immediately. This is in line with the Lion feeling his pride being attacked. However, his words of apology and reconciliation after swallowing his counter are something I think only Dorn could have received - because there could be no question about Rogal's loyalty to Emperor and cause or his own pride. Dorn would not put his own head over that of the others to stroke his ego. The same could not be said about the rest of his brothers, who all had many instances of putting their egos before reason. Even Guilliman put his own idealistic views ahead of things at times. 

 

But Dorn is not just a pragmatist, but also a realist. He sees the whole picture and - even following this vidcall - is depicted as putting the mission, the crusade, and appearances of fairness and balance first. The shuttles landing with Dorn, Fulgrim and the Lion are planned to set down together, so as to present them all as equals, for example.

 

And Rogal Dorn is correct, too, in his criticism. It's something the Lion still does centuries later - and here, he was fresh off Caliban, during one of the earliest campaigns. Despite being the 1st Primarch, he was found as number 11. Fulgrim, who struggled for relevance and to redeem his failing & dying Legion had at least a decade or two to earn his status among the Primarchs. Dorn has his reputation of steadfast man of honor and reason by now.
But El'Jonson is still trying to make up for being so late - something that we know he was eager to do, with his Crusade achievements growing rapidly. But that's his ego, and something he imprinted on his Legion, which already had a big head from being The First™. He's definitely not used to criticism, but coming from Dorn, he is forced to take it at face value and reflect on it in some capacity. He cannot simply take it as a slight, because Dorn doesn't deal in that petty rivalry stuff.

 

The Lion has ego issues. Everyone is aware of that but himself. But who can really tell him that without coming off as throwing rocks from within a glass house? I'd argue that even Sanguinius would not have been able to do it, thanks to how high a pedestal he stands on (let alone the way he's worshipped as the Angel).

 

I'm looking forward to see how this trio of Primarchs engages further throughout the book, though. For now, I feel like all three are well depicted - and I actually also loved the way Fulgrim appeared in that scene. He was foppish, but not overly so. It felt in-character without being overbearing. And I fully believe that he sent Eidolon ahead to deal with Dorn and the Lion, assessing the situation, before stepping in at just the right moment to put his own stamp on the conversation. That seems very much like something he'd do.

 

I was also prepared to be annoyed with another look at Sigismund, but at least early on here, I'm glad for it. This is fresh Templar Sigismund, something I feel his own novel had too little of. He's a PoV character here, but not the big badass everybody saw him as in other works. It's him still finding his way in his new brotherhood. And damn that breacher + templar assault was well done.

[Roomsky]

I found their first meeting pretty tolerable, the angle of an early-Crusade Lion worried about defending his honour is an interesting one, at least. It's just that the rest of the book is filled with his constant snapping at people and looking for slights without any example of the more noble side of his personality.

 

Like I appreciate Thorpe's attempts to make him interesting after Scanlon and Lee, but with every book he makes him more fragile and violent. We know he was still a reserved presence on Caliban, if anything I'd expect him to be more subdued in the early Crusade before the Heresy makes things start to crack.

[Bung]

Finished this book and i would say i am disappointed.

Didnt have high expections with the Gav Thorpe as Author and even those havent been matched.

 

This book could have been a great 1-3 book series about that Part of the Crusade or a generic IF book and it would have been great.

But it lacks in the parts i wanted to read about Dorn.

Most stuff you read about Dorn isnt new, when read the Siege of Terra novel.

It feels like missed assignment by the Author.

 

[Tolmeus]

1 hour ago, Bung said:

This book could have been a great 1-3 book series about that Part of the Crusade

 

Love that idea and would have been interested in that. You can easily split the Crusade in three stages with having each there own climax

 

Spoiler

Phase 1: Gathering of the legions and Compliance of the border systems as stronghold for the further campaign

 

Phase 2: Splitting up, following different strategies to achieve total compliance with each legion facing their own challenges

 

Phase 3: The IF finally facing the true enemy and Dorn's strategy to ensure victory. 

 

This way you certainly would have got more of the desired insights.

 

You do get the key point of Dorn: 

Duty above all, loyalty to the Emperor and his vision for the Imperium.

 

Spoiler

Although I really like the last scenes in the crusade, where Dorn shows that even after total domination over the enemy and their willingness to be part of the Imperium, he abandons all that to follow his fathers instructions. 

 

Then again, that is something one is all to familiar with when reading the Horus Heresy or especially the Siege of Terra 

[DarkChaplain]

On 10/13/2022 at 5:44 PM, Roomsky said:

I found their first meeting pretty tolerable, the angle of an early-Crusade Lion worried about defending his honour is an interesting one, at least. It's just that the rest of the book is filled with his constant snapping at people and looking for slights without any example of the more noble side of his personality.

 

Like I appreciate Thorpe's attempts to make him interesting after Scanlon and Lee, but with every book he makes him more fragile and violent. We know he was still a reserved presence on Caliban, if anything I'd expect him to be more subdued in the early Crusade before the Heresy makes things start to crack.

 

Further into the book now, with the Primarchs splitting up. The Lion hasn't done that much yet, though he did snap at Fulgrim on the surface, and later stormed off during another scene (after trying to regroup at Caliban).

 

In both scenes, I think it's interesting that we only get snippets of the Primarchs' discussions. In the first scene where he snaps about the campaign going a bit awry, we see the group in passing from another view point - Sigismund's - only getting that brief instance of interaction, without the context. As such, I think it's not too out of place, since it works as a kind of shorthand for the three characters' stances and attitudes. 

 

Spoiler

Quote

A rumble of engines heralded the arrival of a hundred bike-mounted Dark Angels, emerging from side streets to ride escort. Fulgrim was speaking, gesturing frequently as the trio made their way up the road towards the remnants of the old regime’s parliament. Dorn occasionally nodded while the Lion was shaking his head, his mane of hair tousled by the smoke-filled wind.
Sigismund’s augmented senses picked up their words as they approached, though he had no context to understand them.
‘…go over this again,’ Fulgrim said. ‘Once committed to a course of action, we have to see it done properly or the whole endeavour becomes pointless.’
‘Your Legion precipitated this, Fulgrim, and now we have to deal with the consequences,’ snapped the Lion.
The snarling of bike engines blocked out further sounds as the escort rode past, taking up station at the far end of the processional in a semicircular formation. As their engines dropped to idling, Sigismund caught a last exchange between the primarchs.
‘When faced with no possibility of compliance, there is no alternative but to eliminate all opposition,’ Rogal Dorn told his companions. ‘It is unfortunate, I would have avoided this outcome if possible, but matters have moved beyond any of us to reverse this course. We are only just embarking on this expedition into the Occluda Noctis, there are far sterner tests to come. We do not need to leave a potential foe at our backs, nor can we leave behind sufficient garrison to guard against future revolution. The dead do not become rebels.’
‘Graves rather than slaves?’ quipped Fulgrim with a faint laugh. He laid a hand briefly on the arm of Rogal Dorn and looked across him to the Lion. ‘I know you feel that this is somehow dishonourable, but you need to remember something important. We are among the savages and xenos here. They do not have honour, and they do not deserve the benefit of your mercy. It is a gift that is wasted upon them. Save it for those that will embrace the Imperial Truth.’
The Lion’s reply was swallowed by distance and the grumble of the Dark Angels’ bike squadrons. As the rest of the honour guards passed – Huscarls, Phoenix Guard, Paladins of Caliban – the clouds on the horizon were lit by red, and seconds later a massive detonation rumbled across the city from the east.

 

 

We get that there's ongoing tension between them, but it's all framed in snippets caught in passing. From what we get to "hear", it's not even clear who is truly in the right or what the original argument was. It's more about attitudes to me: Dorn takes it in relative stride (despite misgivings), but with the appropriate seriousness. The Lion is stressing, impatient, thinking of his "honor". Fulgrim, meanwhile, tries to pose as aloof, like it doesn't really concern him.
I think that works for the trio.

 

Later, we get the strategic planning, where Lion El'Jonson is basically arguing in favor of manpower and military might, but he follows the ongoing arguments and explanations, and lets himself be explained to how the Occluda Noctis makes things troublesome for their navigators. He follows it with prompts and questions, even. It's constructive.
What we do get from that scene though is that the Lion previously brought up / recommended circling the region, heading to Caliban, to regroup before making another big push. It's surprisingly not him who brings it up here, but Dorn and Fulgrim - the former cautioning against delays, while Fulgrim makes it a direct reference, one the Lion feels he needs to justify or defend.

 

Spoiler

Quote

‘You refer, of course, to our brother’s entreaty to move around the north-west of the Occluda Noctis towards his home of Caliban,’ said Fulgrim.
‘It makes for a perfect staging ground, as I have said.’ The Lion moved towards the charts too, further forcing Rigantis aside. ‘It is not delay to ready one’s footing before swinging the blow, it is a sensible preparation.’
His contribution no longer required, the Novator drifted back to his guards as the primarchs continued to discuss their plans, drawing in others as and when it served a point they were trying to make.

 

 

 

 

I don't feel that this is out of turn either. He was egged on, and he's defending his strategic angle.

I left the third paragraph in the quote to highlight again that this strategic discussion is once again presented to us from a third party perspective. Rigantis leaves things out, comments on how he perceives the Primarchs, their looks and auras, but it's not a clear-cut perspective like we're used to, either.

 

Following right up on that comes an even more directly unreliable narrator in the form of a remembrancer recording events and thoughts live - to the point of rambling about personal stuff (which he does even more in the next segment he gets, to the point of cursing another guy over a servitor). He commends on the Phoenician's grooming, even.
He quickly summarizes the council between the Primarchs, while wishing he had been at the Solar Conclave. He's got his head in the clouds being around the Primarchs.

All three Primarchs give their respective ideas here. Splitting up, narrowing the campaign down from the outside. Spiralling in. Going straight for the throat.

 

Spoiler

Quote

‘The Lion has gone very quiet, I don’t think that’s a good sign. Fulgrim remains good-natured in the face of some bullish arguments by Lord Dorn. The primarch of the Seventh wants to push directly into the heart of the shadowed systems, before forces are leeched away on garrisons, patrols and lines of supply duties.
‘I’m no strategist, but all of these plans seem to have mer–
‘The Lion is leaving! With a parting remark about needing to finish what’s been started, he has rejoined his entourage and is leaving the chamber. Fulgrim has called for him to return, but… Yes, the contingent from the First Legion has gone. Lord Dorn has returned to studying the maps on the table, but Fulgrim is telling him that there’s no point. They will have to agree the strategy, all of them.
‘I’m being called away. I’m with the First, I’ll be abandoned here if I don’t go.
‘Quite remarkable events, as I said. This grand endeavour, this Night Crusade, will need its leaders to create common ground and quickly.’

 

 

 

 

This entire scene is from a Remembrancer currently attached to the First Legion. His remarks on Fulgrim and Dorn both were a bit on the dismissive side before; we've seen remembrancers being biased in favor of the Legion they're attached to before - they take their colors, so to speak, and it's a matter of pride to them. Ironically, Larentius val de Meer, this remembrancer, will be transfered to the Seventh before his next appearance.

 

But now to the scene that I actually wanted to talk about, because I loved it: Enter Horus Lupercal.

 

Frankly, that scene works as a nice example of why Dorn was not made Warmaster but Praetorian, and why Horus was. Or why the Lion also wasn't (even though we have plenty of reasons for that already, though he himself does not want to acknowledge them).

 

Horus manages to "compromise" in a way that strokes everyone's egos in some fashion. As Fulgrim points out, he doesn't commit to any of the three plans - he commits to all of them, letting everyone pursue their own ideals. Dorn was hamstrung by having to seek common course, where Horus recognized that each had a different way to go about things and would be more efficient by setting up broadly, even if the tip got smaller.

 

And Horus does it in such a way that it is taken in good humor, without resentment.

 

Interestingly, the Lion does not say a word during this encounter (one we observe through Gidoreas of the Fists, again no direct author top-down perspective). Horus clearly involves him by moving next to him, but while Fulgrim quips and Dorn discusses the subject straight up, the Lion contributes silence (and a nod). To me, that seemed strange for a moment, but also makes sense considering that the Lion saw himself in a sort of rivalry with Horus, even before the whole Warmaster deal. The Lion struggled to reconcile Horus' preeminent status among his peers and in the Emperor's eyes with himself as the First Primarch of the First Legion which was also the prototype Legion in the first place.

To me, this invites a certain awkwardness between the two; the Lion won't openly acknowledge his inferiority complex, and won't expose it in this context here either.

 

He's cautious, observant, probably looking for weakness - something Horus doesn't show.

 

And then Dorn argues and takes Horus by surprise - which he overcomes by making an appeal at the group, granting Dorn a point scored while turning it back around at Dorn, making him and the Fists the speartip. He puts pressure on Dorn by giving him the hardest task, but also proves himself to be politically skilled enough to achieve that without resentment, while being best-equipped to deal with whatever will come off it. Horus is shrewd, plays his cards right, and even plays it off with fake modesty ("It's because I tell the best war stories. Everyone knows that").

 

...and our PoV character Gidoreas is quite taken with it. He sees it as a chance for Rogal Dorn and the Fists to prove their own mettle, to be unchained from having to manage relationships between three Legions with wildly different perspectives and attitudes. He sees it as a chance enabled by Horus, when really, Horus is gambling on knocking Dorn down a peg... (something that comes up later when the brothers meet again, with the Lion boasting about his Legion's achieved compliances, doubling the Fists' numbers and making the argument that his way was correct after all. Something Dorn doesn't let stand, but I only glimpsed ahead to see when the Lion gets brought up next).

 

And can I just say that I love those remembrancer commentary sections? God, I wish we'd had more of these in the entire series. Actual accounts of what's going on as situations develop and escalate, biased takes from unreliable narrators ignorant on the wider context that the reader is aware of. Just giving commentary on small details, glancing over specifics and capturing the mood and feel of pivotal moments. So many events would have gained from that, including the Council of Nikaea or Ullanor...

Edited October 14, 2022 by DarkChaplain
Spoiler & Quote formatting on the new site is god-awful, especially on edits.

[Ubiquitous1984]

The remembrancer commentary sections are handled superbly in the audiobooks!  More of this please BL.  The novel has the standard JK narration, but the extra narrators used for the commentary sections, with the audio-drama style presentation are just *chefs kiss* it made me realise how much I miss BL audio dramas!

[Wulfburk]

Having finished my Steam backlog for the time-being, I decided to go back on track with my 40k reading.

 

I`ve read Rogal Dorn, Sigismund, and The First Wall this past week, and I gotta say that the one that stuck with me a wee bit was indeed Rogal Dorn - The Emperor`s Crusader.

 

In a way, I found that its strength was its simplicty, and I liked that it never bogged itself down on battles, quickly jumping forward back to the macro view of the conflict. It was a nice change of pace to read a book that almost feels like a campaign AAR for a homebrew chapter, something that anyone could write, and this I do not mean as an insult to Gav Thorpe.

 

Though for sure I would`ve liked more of Inwit. So far we only had a short glimpse of it in The Crimson Fist and Praetorian of Dorn. On an unrelated note, I`m still waiting for an update on Alexis Polux status.

Edited October 20, 2022 by Wulfburk

[DarkChaplain]

6 hours ago, Wulfburk said:

Having finished my Steam backlog for the time-being,

 

....is it possible to learn this power?

 

I'm with you on that Polux situation. There's no way in hell he wouldn't have left Ultramar to reach Terra, but just vanished from the page in Imperium Secundus. If he doesn't get featured in the 2-part Siege finale, I'll be miffed. He was one of my favorites, and seeing him acknowledged in this novel here was very nice.

[Wulfburk]

Yeah, incidentally he would be a great character for a Horus Heresy character novel. But maybe they are waiting for him to take the forefront in the scouring, Imperial Fists wise. Or so I hope. At least him being mentioned in these latest books means he aint entirely forgotten.

[Von Großschmitt]

I can't for the life of me understand the positive comments about this one. 

 

It features the usual Thorpe flaws:

• Bland prose with at times horrid metaphors
• Stilted dialogue which doesn't at all differentiate between characters (And by the Emperor, how I dislike the whole Aristotelian "character B indirectly explains character A the error of his thinking"-shtick.)
• Infantile primarchs (Yes, I understand that LEJ was supposed to be new to the Crusade, but his characterization seems way off [as is Sigismund's]. Compare it to say, David Guymer's novel which itself is a far cry from great but still "gets" the function of the Lion...)
• An unnecessary and unsurprising "twist" (see: "The First Wall")
• ... and the worst thing there is: It's utterly boring

 

On the other hand, what it doesn't have are the redeeming elements of his more creative outputs, such as Lorgar (setting; although I still consider the idea of a full-fledged Chaos-worshipping Colchis without overt mutations or demonic incursions as absolutely non-sensical) or Luther (parts of the characterization). I didn't expect an insight into Dorn's character or his upbringing. The Primarch series rarely tackles or at least succeeds in doing that. Yet while I didn't expect much from this one, I was still left disappointed.

 

Why should I as a reader even care about the remembrancer? He barely gets any screen time; there's nothing to his character. He is just a cheap foil so we get a better idea of the actually-not-so-great Crusade. The propaganda isn't true, how novel! The only character with (albeit largely unexplored) potential is the Navigator... 

 

The novel's setup with the campaign against the Unseen (whose threat is not at all conveyed, so I don't 'get' the existential dread of the remembrancer) just drags on and on... I realize, the point of the novel is to show that Dorn is the one Primarch who follows the Emperor's orders to the letter. However, there's no inner conflict, no rising tension, no excitement. The novel is just... bland.  

 

 

Edited October 23, 2022 by Von Großschmitt

[DarkChaplain]

Going by Tymell's Heresy timeline, the Lion has been crusading for roughly 2 years at most by the time we see him here. We have roughly a year of progress into the campaign by the time news of Perturabo being discovered reaches the fleet (a wonderful little mention in the story, imo, especially considering the genuine enthusiasm of the Fists).

 

Guymer's Lion meanwhile has had another 20+ years of crusade history on his back. By that point, he's made his name, showed his brothers up in terms of worlds reclaimed (something he starts during the Night Crusade) and has his ego well-fed.

 

Frankly, I don't get the novel being boring. It moves at a steady pace, doesn't get bogged down with action setpieces like almost every other Heresy novel does at one point or another, and it actually shows how Dorn wages war, rather than build castles. It's got plenty of tension between the Primarchs, including Horus' subtle machinations. Sigismund is talented but not overbearing, still finding his own in a phase of his life that, sadly, his Characters novel brushed over far too quickly. In a way, it even proves a more satisfying "making of" of Sigismund, through him realizing his purpose in the wider context, and acting on it.

Dorn's critique of his brothers is also on point - they make the Emperor's vision fit their plans, motivations and schemes, when it should be the other way around. It's offering a lot of good commentary on why certain Primarchs ended up with certain roles and jobs.

 

Frankly, I got more out of the book regarding Dorn as a character, who he is, how he thinks and wages war, than I have from watching him sit in Bhab Bastion for numerous Siege novels, just to go and punk Fulgrim with "I am the Fortress now" oneliners. Everyone, from Gidoreas over Sigismund, the Remembrancer, Rigantis or even the "liberated" bureaucrats paint a complex picture of who this Primarch is, all through their own slightly out of sync lens.

 

...and my god am I glad that most of the action was cut down to a bare minimum, focusing on what the characters need to gain from the scene rather than the relentless violence. I just bloody wish there'd been chapters to separate scenes. It gets annoying having to deal with a timeskip that could've just as well occured after a simple chapter break.

[lansalt]

I found this book promising at the start despite the usual problems with Thorpe's prose and characters, close in feeling also to the early HH books than the more recent (and polished) ones. But the book ends without a real ending to me. The resolution of Dorn's conflict with his brothers in the crusade is never shown, he just...     [BIG ENDING SPOILERS]:

Spoiler

...genocides in a whim the Unseen civilization after they surrender, murdering their representatives, and only basing his decision in a flimsy minor genetic difference, without any discussion with other imperial authorities or his brothers, or having geneticists examine the issue. Cue ending credits.

 

Dorn ends up looking as dumb to me as some of the others, like Corvus Corax in his primarch novel. The Unseen at least are an interesting post-DAoT civilization.

 

Edited October 23, 2022 by lansalt

[Von Großschmitt]

2 hours ago, DarkChaplain said:

Going by Tymell's Heresy timeline, the Lion has been crusading for roughly 2 years at most by the time we see him here. We have roughly a year of progress into the campaign by the time news of Perturabo being discovered reaches the fleet (a wonderful little mention in the story, imo, especially considering the genuine enthusiasm of the Fists).

 

Guymer's Lion meanwhile has had another 20+ years of crusade history on his back. By that point, he's made his name, showed his brothers up in terms of worlds reclaimed (something he starts during the Night Crusade) and has his ego well-fed.

 

Frankly, I don't get the novel being boring. It moves at a steady pace, doesn't get bogged down with action setpieces like almost every other Heresy novel does at one point or another, and it actually shows how Dorn wages war, rather than build castles. It's got plenty of tension between the Primarchs, including Horus' subtle machinations. Sigismund is talented but not overbearing, still finding his own in a phase of his life that, sadly, his Characters novel brushed over far too quickly. In a way, it even proves a more satisfying "making of" of Sigismund, through him realizing his purpose in the wider context, and acting on it.

Dorn's critique of his brothers is also on point - they make the Emperor's vision fit their plans, motivations and schemes, when it should be the other way around. It's offering a lot of good commentary on why certain Primarchs ended up with certain roles and jobs.

 

Frankly, I got more out of the book regarding Dorn as a character, who he is, how he thinks and wages war, than I have from watching him sit in Bhab Bastion for numerous Siege novels, just to go and punk Fulgrim with "I am the Fortress now" oneliners. Everyone, from Gidoreas over Sigismund, the Remembrancer, Rigantis or even the "liberated" bureaucrats paint a complex picture of who this Primarch is, all through their own slightly out of sync lens.

 

...and my god am I glad that most of the action was cut down to a bare minimum, focusing on what the characters need to gain from the scene rather than the relentless violence. I just bloody wish there'd been chapters to separate scenes. It gets annoying having to deal with a timeskip that could've just as well occured after a simple chapter break.

 

Well, agree to disagree then. :-)

 

Regarding your points: 

 

My issue with the Lion's characterization is that he is incredibly overbearing, petty, choleric and short-sighted - mostly contradicting even his pre-Crusade version. You could put some of that down to his being relatively new to the Crusade and trying way too hard. But overall, it's just your run-of-the-mill bad comic book characterization of him (same goes for the Primarchs' dialogue in, say, "The First Wall" compared to French's, Wraight's, Abnett's or ADB's).

 

I'm honestly flabbergasted that you would think Sigismund's personality in this one is deeper or more satisfying than in French's character novel. Here, Sigismund is basically your regular highly talented, yet still rough and rather inexperienced melee champion-to-be. He could be any named character rookie. What about him is at all remarkable in this iteration? There's no hint of his ambivalence about his becoming a Space Marine; no sense of loss what this meant for his humanity; no feeling of disillusionment about the nature of man and the Great Crusade which was innate to him even in the very earliest of novels. He could be a melee version of Archamus, for all we know. It's just "Dude, that Dark Angel's strategy in the duel was so transparent" and "Oh, I have yet so much to learn from my superiors' platitudes, please impart your wisdom upon me in a badly framed metaphor which I can later use when we walk into an Unseen trap."

 

Where I do agree with you is that Dorn's characterization is more nuanced than his play castle meme version we sometimes get. Personally, I dislike bolter porn. That's not my issue with the novel at all. But the pacing, the dialogue, and the whole plot structure is so unengaging and off, what's the point? What *do* the characters or we as a reader get from the scenes? Just when I thought they were finally done with the many badly explained strategies for catching the "Unseen", there is another dozen pages or so of "Will Dorn's strategy persevere? Will they finally be able to reach their homeworld?" I unapologetically believe this is not a good novel at all and I can't wrap my mind around how others might think the opposite. But hey, if you got what you wanted out of the novel and were entertained, who am I to judge? :-)

 

 

Edited October 23, 2022 by Von Großschmitt