Favorite BL portrayal of Dante?

[WARMASTER_]

3 hours ago, Blindhamster said:

It’s similar to dante, he is noted as not taking off the mask generally because he looks old and believes the mask is a better symbol of strength. In private audiences with ranking blood angels, or when with his aide, he takes it off, but not for outsiders or even lower ranking blood angels generally. 
 

blood quest showed him without it, but blood quest also doesn’t match the modern official description -.which is white hair and looking legitimately old.

 

so chaplains often doing the same, to personify the role they represent makes sense.

Man I wish we got Andy Smillie’s version of Dante and not Guy Hayley’s his was so much cooler! I feel he’s the best author at capturing their character for 40K by a very large margin 

[Blindhamster]

14 minutes ago, BladeOfVengeance said:

Man I wish we got Andy Smillie’s version of Dante and not Guy Hayley’s his was so much cooler! I feel he’s the best author at capturing their character for 40K by a very large margin 

Tbf, the version guy Haley used matches ADBs. I like it a lot. 
 

in which book did Andy smilie cover Dante? Personally a huge fan of “Dante”, “Devastation or Baal” and “Darkness in the blood” by Haley

Edited September 10, 2022 by Blindhamster

[Brother Tyler]

Note that this [new] topic was split from this discussion about the Chaplain models since this is clearly off topic. It's worth it's own discussion, however, for those that are interested.

[WARMASTER_]

He covers him briefly in his Flesh Tearers series which for me saved the Blood Angels after years of getting sub par authors 

The story where Dante’s mentioned clearest in my mind is in the “Trail of Gabriel Seth” [a collection of short stories with a connected narrative Andy added to connect them with him on trail in front the chapter masters of the blood for the Flesh Tearers obvious “Excesses”]  

In the story Gabriel reflects to himself why Dante never takes off his Helmet and the reasons for why he doesn't is the fact that makes him the only space marine present he truly respects. 

It’s heavily suggested in Seth’s thoughts that Dante doesn’t remove his helm because after a millennia of staving the black rage/Red thirst his features are in a constant rictus of anger, so rather than Hayley’s rather lack lustre “Dante looks old” so he doesn’t take it off for vanity's sake…  Andy portrays a Dante of supreme control and mental will power Dante’ demeanour and actions remain calm and measured even whilst being physically changed by the rage… Even through the torment Seth knows he must be going through he remains paragon of the blood angels nobility. So In Andy’s work He wears the mask at all times to project his internal ideals of nobility that he’s fighting ever second to preserve whilst staving of the rage rather than trying to hide the fact he’s aged 

 

I don’t know it just feels like a way better character to me, it’s the classic fallen hero arc type that the blood angels encompass in 40K 

Edited September 10, 2022 by BladeOfVengeance
Spelling

[Blindhamster]

Except Haley doesn't say it as him just looking old, its a more accurate depiction based on what we know of marines that have lived so long (sigismund, the half heard) - marines age.

The actual first depiction that made it canon for him to have white hair and old features wasn't Hayley, as noted it was this: https://www.warhammerdigital.com/all-products/Dante.html

Hayley depicts Dante as having immense willpower as he actively doesn't even drink blood for centuries.

In Hayleys work he wears the mask because he believes Sanguinius is the symbol the blood angels need, not him.

personally not a fan of the idea of him looking angry all the time though, but thats just me :D

[WARMASTER_]

Oh it’s not the looking old that really bothers me at all, I like the grizzled old man space marines! although I think Hayley goes a “bit” far in the description [it’s the saggy skin that’s gets lol] I preferred the description saying they tough like old leather but I digress 

While he’s still definitely depicted with willpower I’m not as much a fan of the resigned weariness [I get it like he’s super old and seen it all l, but it’s kinda like don’t meet your heroes thing for me in that description] 

Yeh I get you, but for me it’s the only logical conclusion after suffering for literally millennia of soul driven rage and shows an iron conviction to drive on rather than the resigned Dante we have 

[Blindhamster]

Blood angels don’t suffer from rage all the time. They suffer from the thirst. With the exception of mephiston and Lemartes, succumbing to the flaw that is rage isn’t something you come back from, it’s also not something you fight against, you either get it and that’s it, you’re sanguinius raging against your fate or you don’t.

whereas the thirst isn’t rage, it is straight up hunger for blood, I guess some might be angry at the need to fight against it, but for most the whole point is finding pursuits like the arts to avoid it. Dante hasn’t ever had the rage come on, but he has had the thirst overtake him and lost himself to blood lust. 

lemartes is the one I’d assume to have a constant look of anger on his face. 
 

to me Dante is like old man Logan (x men, not the wolf chapter master haha), and that works for me.

but I like that people can enjoy different aspects! 
 

p.s. the Dante books actively acknowledge events from trial of the blood, so I don’t view them as mutually exclusive, you just have gabriel’s (arguably hero worshipping view) of Dante, and you have Dante’s own view of himself.

a defining trait of Dante that I’ve always liked… he isn’t anyone special, he was not the best the chapter had, he was just the only option left when he took the mantle of chapter master, and yet… he’s served longer than any living space marine and become a living legend, but to him, he views himself as a means to give hope by personifying the great angel, he feels very noble and steadfast, not giving up despite the part of him that feels like he should be done. 
 

p.p.s. Also worth noting, Dante doesn’t look anywhere near as old post drinking blood again.

Edited September 10, 2022 by Blindhamster

[WARMASTER_]

8 hours ago, Blindhamster said:

Blood angels don’t suffer from rage all the time. They suffer from the thirst. With the exception of mephiston and Lemartes, succumbing to the flaw that is rage isn’t something you come back from, it’s also not something you fight against, you either get it and that’s it, you’re sanguinius raging against your fate or you don’t.

whereas the thirst isn’t rage, it is straight up hunger for blood, I guess some might be angry at the need to fight against it,

Now this is something we disagree with  because they all do always suffer from the rage.
 

The twin curses are indelibly linked and they’re always fighting against it! The rage isn’t something they either have or don’t, it’s inside every single son of Sanguinius, it’s always there, beneath the surface trying to overcome them and eventually it will claim them all , willpower can and does stave it off even on the brink, but it gets harder and harder with age 

The Thirst is also absolutely rage it’s not just a thirst for blood and a blood fury! a madness that leads to the Black Rage 

The easiest example I can give but I could give many…

“Though every Blood Angel tries to suppress it, the Red Thirst ever lurks on the border of his soul, threatening at any moment to tip him into unstoppable fury Sometimes the lure is too strong - otherwise sane Battle-Brothers find themselves temporarily gripped by the insane bloodlust of the Red Thirst”

Blood angels 5th edition codex page 23 “Red Thirst”

That’s why I liked the depiction of Dante as a being of supreme will he’s not only the oldest space marine because of his immense skill but also because of his immense willpower at staving off the twin curses for millennia 

I agree though it’s good we all find different aspects to like in the hobby and it’s the version we have so I’m stuck with him haha. I get where your coming from too the resigned hero that just keeps on going definitely has its merits as a character perhaps I just have more of an infinity for Andy’s portrayal, like I really don’t hate Guys version at all! theirs lots to admire he just feels less “40k” to me if you get me? 

P.S Even though Guy acknowledges the cannon of the trail his Dante is most definitely different, He acknowledged those books though because he wanted to use Andy’s portrayal of Seth as he stated he gets him spot on 

 

 

[Blindhamster]

Yeah we do disagree on the curses effects

[Majkhel]

Rage is definitely different. While a scion of Sanguinius might experience flashes of Sanguinius' memory during his lifetime, they are not throwing him into the clutches of Black Rage immediately. It's when those flashes overcome his mind and become a reality for him, the actual Rage comes.

Note that brothers afflicted by the Rage do not become immediately violent. 

[Karhedron]

15 minutes ago, Majkhel said:

Note that brothers afflicted by the Rage do not become immediately violent. 

Tycho's death story during the 3rd Armageddon campaign highlights this nicely. Before he joins the DC, he tells the Chaplain (possibly Lemartes) that the visions are becoming stronger and he is starting to lose his grip on the present. Later, during the battle, he sees a hulking Ork Warlord as Horus and immediately engages his in a battle that sees them both mortally wounded. As he lies dying, he sees Lemartes again but no longer recognises him and believes he is talking to Rogal Dorn. The Chaplain assures him that he held the breach and slew the monster. Tycho dies content.

[WARMASTER_]

44 minutes ago, Blindhamster said:

Yeah we do disagree on the curses effects

I think we’ll have to if you don’t think the Red thirst drives them into a fury - it’s literally the reason so many Chapters have turned to excessive blood rites to stave it off because whilst gripped by the fury of the Red thirst they’re more susceptible to the black rage 

[Blindhamster]

I don’t believe they’re like it most of the time, it has triggers. It definitely causes heightened aggression. When it triggers, it’s also a fact that blood angels, more than many successors actively perform activities that help them control it. It’s also categorically not the case that age of a marine has anything to do with chance to succumb to either curse, in fact it’s heavily implied that in the case of the thirst, it’s the young ones that are more likely to succumb to it.

the rage, as others have pointed out and I already said, absolutely isn’t a constant thing, and even when it occurs, it usually doesn't start with actual anger.

 

I'm willing to concede that the thirst can create a frenzy of aggression if it takes over, I don’t think it results in the traditional sense of anger. And no, I don’t buy that old blood angels would all end up with constant snarls for features due to keeping it under control. In fact, most depictions of older blood angels show that generally they look calm and collected - except for in combat where they can indeed become way more savage when they cut loose.

Edited September 11, 2022 by Blindhamster
typos!

[WARMASTER_]

@Blindhamster

50 minutes ago, Blindhamster said:

im willing to concede that the thirst can create a frenzy of aggression if it takes over, I don’t think it results in the traditional sense of anger. And no, I don’t buy that old blood angels would all end up with constant snarls for features due to keeping up other under control

that was my point though it’s not traditional anger it’s supposed to be blood madness an unstoppable fury that’s why it leads to the curse, why do you think the Angels Sanguine can’t remove their helms around others [Its not because of their calm visage I can assure you] it’s because they’re shaped by the curse physically 

16 hours ago, Blindhamster said:

whereas the thirst isn’t rage, it is straight up hunger for blood, I guess some might be angry at the need to fight against It

It’s been part of their lore that it’s a constant struggle for them for several editions though and not something that comes and goes, Some are obviously better at suppressing it than other but it’s ever present none the less, ill use the same quite as earlier…

“Though every Blood Angel tries to suppress it, the Red Thirst ever lurks on the border of his soul, threatening at any moment to tip him into unstoppable fury Sometimes the lure is too strong - otherwise sane Battle-Brothers find themselves temporarily gripped by the insane bloodlust of the Red Thirst”

5th Edition Codex 

The point with the Blood Angels is that they’re the tragic fallen hero archetype, the fact they’re constantly staving off the thirst is what makes them so noble, even with they’re Gene seed degeneration and Curse upon them that will winnow away their strength until they’re gone, they still strive to be paragons nobility 

1 hour ago, Blindhamster said:

It’s also categorically not the case that age of a marine has anything to do with chance to succumb to either curse, in fact it’s heavily implied that in the case of the thirst, it’s the young ones that are more likely to succumb to it.

It is the case though the fact is that the longer you’re suffering from something the more chance it have to get you! I’ll give another example from BL 

“The sergeant would be struggling
with his own blood-rage. Over his centuries is of service, Barbelo had slain more enemies of the Throne than Maion and the rest of the squad had tallied between them. For Barbelo, the call to violence would be stronger, harder to deny”

Beneath The Flesh

Ill concede 40K is anything but consistent but I’d struggle to find a description of the thirst that’s different to my understanding 

[Blindhamster]

Clear we aren’t going to agree, but I laud you taking the time to find quotes, I honestly have neither the time nor energy. Having spent the day doing research for the roleplaying game I’m running. 
 

 

[WARMASTER_]

1 hour ago, Blindhamster said:

Clear we aren’t going to agree, but I laud you taking the time to find quotes, I honestly have neither the time nor energy. Having spent the day doing research for the roleplaying game I’m running. 
 

 

Such is life, Haha thanks to be honest I’ve got a weird brain for remembering details it only took a min to pull them up 

I hope your games a good one dude 

[Arkangilos]

21 hours ago, Blindhamster said:

Clear we aren’t going to agree, but I laud you taking the time to find quotes, I honestly have neither the time nor energy. Having spent the day doing research for the roleplaying game I’m running. 
 

 

Do you guys actually disagree or are you guys using “struggles constantly” with differently?

I mean it’s clear in the lore that the thirst is constantly a problem, and used to be present in the rules (a role of one mean they had to advance towards the enemies).

Even in the HH book “Malevolence”, the reason why Sanguinius made the reforms he did and made them focus so much on art and detail was to focus them on something so much they would push through the thirst.

 

BUT, I don’t think that constantly struggling with the thirst means they always snarl. I think of it like a starving man presented with a feast. One like Dante that built up self control would certainly desire it, but he would look at it, shrug, and move on. 
 

One without as much self control as Dante would snarl and twitch. But I mean we have real examples we can draw from. A Benedictine monk who used to be a glutton but through years of fasting developed self control, vs. a worldly man who has gone a week without eating (like me during lent sometimes). I can tell you the monk reacts totally different when the Sunday meal comes than I do, and I can tell you you wouldn’t be able to tell he had been fasting, but you can definitely tell I’ve been fasting. He doesn’t get grouchy, I do, at least the first week. 
 

So I agree with the other guy that the thirst is always there, but I agree with you that Dante wouldn’t be snarling.
 

As for the hooded ones brought up in another example, IIRC they actually gave in and started doing specific rituals. Everything I’ve seen is that the transformations occur for those that give into the thirst. 
 

 

[Blindhamster]

32 minutes ago, Arkangilos said:

Do you guys actually disagree or are you guys using “struggles constantly” with differently?

I mean it’s clear in the lore that the thirst is constantly a problem, and used to be present in the rules (a role of one mean they had to advance towards the enemies).

Even in the HH book “Malevolence”, the reason why Sanguinius made the reforms he did and made them focus so much on art and detail was to focus them on something so much they would push through the thirst.

 

BUT, I don’t think that constantly struggling with the thirst means they always snarl. I think of it like a starving man presented with a feast. One like Dante that built up self control would certainly desire it, but he would look at it, shrug, and move on. 
 

One without as much self control as Dante would snarl and twitch. But I mean we have real examples we can draw from. A Benedictine monk who used to be a glutton but through years of fasting developed self control, vs. a worldly man who has gone a week without eating (like me during lent sometimes). I can tell you the monk reacts totally different when the Sunday meal comes than I do, and I can tell you you wouldn’t be able to tell he had been fasting, but you can definitely tell I’ve been fasting. He doesn’t get grouchy, I do, at least the first week. 
 

So I agree with the other guy that the thirst is always there, but I agree with you that Dante wouldn’t be snarling.
 

As for the hooded ones brought up in another example, IIRC they actually gave in and started doing specific rituals. Everything I’ve seen is that the transformations occur for those that give into the thirst. 
 

 

What you describe is how I would think of it. I never said the thirst wasn’t always there, only that it doesn’t create constant anger (from what I read). I did say the rage isn’t always there though, most blood angels don’t experience it at all

[Arkangilos]

10 hours ago, Blindhamster said:

What you describe is how I would think of it. I never said the thirst wasn’t always there, only that it doesn’t create constant anger (from what I read). I did say the rage isn’t always there though, most blood angels don’t experience it at all

True, I don't think it would create constant anger, but I do think it would constantly have their passions running which would make anger easier to come by in the younger ones that are newer. I think (and this is where I think the other idea is wrong) that the older one gets, and the more one has mastered it, the passion would be subdued and pushed back enough that an outsider wouldn't even know he was struggling with it, beyond a certain look in his eyes. It would definitely still be a lingering presence, though, and as we saw in Dante, when one finally gives in it would be a shock. A shock that might even, to a weaker willed one, be too much to handle and they might be lost forever.

[Xenith]

Don't forget in Nick Kyme's The Burden of Angels - Dante meets Tu'shan, and is we see Blood Angels actually undergo a physical transformation - This is the first instance I recall of their teeth lengthening - classic vampire trope and first evidence for retractable teeth, and we see their eyes go blood red. For me this was a bit of a watershed moment where before the Blood Angels had been hinted at being vampires, and they definitely loved blood, however now they're full on Buffy-style angry face long teeth transformation, as opposed to just liking drinking the stuff. We see Dante lose himself in a blood fury. If we say that Dante has never succumbed to the rage, and he hasn't, then it's the red thirst that overcame Dante and stopped him being able to tell friend from foe, and just slay everything in proximity in his anger.

Same thing we see with the Flesh Tearers - not every battle brother has succumbed to the rage, however they still occasionally flip out and murder their allies in their battle frenzy - that battle-lust and not telling friend from foe seems to be a part of the thirst, and what makes them such furious fighters.

 

EDIT: Forgot to describe the actual transformation. 

Edited September 13, 2022 by Xenith

[Blindhamster]

Believe I literally used the word frenzy in relation to the thirst multiple times. But it’s still not a constant state of anger, which is the point I contest. 

So no argument on that there. 
 

the black rage actually specifically doesn’t stop them telling friend from foe, they are regularly described as seeing modern blood angels as blood angels during the siege.

I had forgotten that story, I recall reading it a long while ago now though. Dante definitely loses it on rare occasions, and did so quite spectacularly as a young marine and even.

believe the physical changes when the thirst comes in are limited for most blood angels (fangs getting longer is regularly described as a thing even with smell of blood since that story), however it’s also canon that marines that totally succumb to the thirst can become full blown monsters, so again much like classic vampire stories, there’s clearly a range for how bestial a marine becomes due to it. Probably relates to how much blood they drink or could literally be random. 

 

[WARMASTER_]

@Arkangilos I didn’t really mean that he would be snarling what I meant was Andy had hinted that Dante while still spiritual under control of his flaws he’s has been physically changed by them, Marred by them, Guy Haley touches on the physical changes wrought upon the blood line with the Knights of Blood characters and the Warriors set free from the Tower in “Devastation of Baal”

It’s an interesting Concept Andy put forward and I would have greatly preferred they explored it more [kind of his inner demons coming to the surface over the millennia of suffering, rather than taking over him spiritual kinda thing]

[Helias_Tancred]

On 9/10/2022 at 6:39 PM, Blindhamster said:

 

p.p.s. Also worth noting, Dante doesn’t look anywhere near as old post drinking blood again.

Bingo. That made an impact on the situation.