The Beginner Game?

[Valkyrion]

I'm playing with a friend this weekend who has never played 30k and only has experience of 9th edition 40k, so whilst the concepts won't be utterly alien to him (and he's not an idiot!) I'm wanting a bit of advice on where to direct the focus of the game. 
Reactions are obviously a thing, the to hit and to wound charts are new, vehicle facings and armour, independent characters....there's a lot and this won't be a game about winning, only learning - so do I set up an army with one of everything in it to spread the newness, or make it more specific? 

I was going to use a variation of the starter set - tank, power armour, terminator armour, character plus something different each (e.g, dreadnought, jet bikes, rapiers, destroyers whatever).
But would you bother with legion rules or just run it completely vanilla? I'm not going to touch Rites, but maybe throwing in a fear causing unit would be good for learning (or too much) or chucking a psyker in (good or too much), and reactions are such a big part I'm reluctant to not include them....so yeah, fishing for ideas that won't lead to being too much. 

[MegaVolt87]

You should pick legions, this way you can test things on a smaller scale and see what clicks for you to build to. Too early to bother thinking about ROW, you don't even really need to use one at all even for 2.0. My 3k IW list doesn't have one and its fine. 

[LameBeard]

I’d be tempted to leave vehicles out of the first game - the game seems to speed up once you have learned the common special rules - and there’s plenty of those with infantry, dreadnoughts, jet bikes. I’d probably leave out Psykers too - plenty of games won’t even have one so that doesn’t seem a priority.

I agree reactions should be in, and morale is a big deal, so a fear-causing unit isn’t a crazy idea.

Well done for spreading the good news about Horus!

[Valkyrion]

Would you not say a tank is important because of how different they function - pointless shooting them with bolters, weapon facings, only able to fire certain weapons at certain times etc.

You might be right though. Get things like pinning, reactions, challenges and morale nailed first and add in vehicles and deep strikes and psykers later. 

 

Would you bother playing a mission? If so, which one? 

[Stitch5000]

I'd probably lean into something with 2 or three objective markers and a good old fashioned Dawn of War deployment. It gives you some context and a "point" to the game, that makes it more compelling and everything makes a little more sense. 

If you are having a small game, hard limit it to one reaction per player, per phase, and strictly one dreadnought each. 

I honestly think you will be missing something without vehicles though, even if it is just a rhino each. 

[Bung]

Maybe make a few smaller Games.

First with only Infantry, Cybot, Bikes, next game you add a couple of Tanks.

Both games dont need to follows the normal organisation plan.

Third game write 2 small army lists around 1500 Points.

[LameBeard]

Agree having objectives is worth it to show the “line” mechanic.

I don’t feel that strongly about the vehicles, it just seems a big chunk of rules that could be put to one side for a minute. And if it’s a small game, the Spartan can unbalance it, so rhinos I think are preferable to that specific tank.

[Cactus]

The first games might not even be full games, just enough to demonstrate the differences from 9th ed 40k.

My first 'game' of X-Wing was me being given an x-wing and told to chase a couple of TIEs. I learned how to move and shoot and die from a few turns of pushing models across the floor.

Personally I have always found 40k's vehicle rules to be the least intuitive and hardest to remember part of the ruleset in every edition, so I would leave them out of game 1.

Edited September 13, 2022 by Cactus
TIE not tie

[SkimaskMohawk]

Imo no legions, mirror match, maybe 4 objectives.

Keep the game on the smaller scale, don't include anything really snowbally, like a Spartan that can only be killed by 1 unit.

The mirror match let's them see how other people use the units on a turn by turn basis and maybe adapt it into their strategy.

[Dont-Be-Haten]

I teach games as follows. I have done this from 5th edition 40k to present.

750-1,000 starting point. 750 usually takes about 45 minutes to teach fundamentals, while 1k gives you about 1.25 hours of play to learn same mechanics. This also accounts for page flipping and all that. Have the cheat sheets on hand also. Only take CADs for army creation. Then a Centurion, 2 troops, a rhino, and 1 unit in the Fast, Elite, and/or Heavy slot.

I used to take a tank and or a MC to counter the other. Contemptors are pretty brutal, but Castras are a great for an between unit that.

Make each army compliment each other. Ergo, rock-paper-scissors, for each unit picked. Like a squad of veterans to show the difference in WS 5 vs 4. Then play the game.

Back on the points, armies, & mission: I like taking 750 and then rotating armies this allows you to get multiple games in. I can usually get 2-3 in about 2ish hours. This allows your opponent to play with both armies, and then have a possible final match with the army he started with after learning the basics. After that the next time we play a 750-1k list, whichever you decided from the jump, then increase a second game to 1250-1500. Then play in that bracket until you both feel comfortable that the new player is ready to play in larger scale games.

Mission wise I usually just create a mission and shorten the board using the new 40k board rules, but previously for anything less than 1k I'd usually shorten the long board by 24-30" the game table would be simple Dawn of War, and then play 4 rounds. Put one objective in the middle of the board and play with 2 secondaries: kill more/attrition and Slay the Warlord etc. 

 

 

 

Edited September 13, 2022 by Dont-Be-Haten

[Beerhammer]

It would be nice for GW to release the teach how to play boxes for HH like have with 40k and AOS. 
 

 

[Dont-Be-Haten]

23 hours ago, Beerhammer said:

It would be nice for GW to release the teach how to play boxes for HH like have with 40k and AOS. 
 

 

They have, it's just on Warhammer+

[Xenith]

I'd go 500pts to start. If you ignoreforce org, or give both a delegatus, 10 tacs, 5 catas and something else is about 500.

Otherwise 2x10 tacs+a centurian is about 300, then you have 200pts for either 5 catas or 1 contemptor. 

I'd keep forced balanced for now, maybe a contemptor on each side, but at low points it'll be a dread battle. If they have played 40k, they'll pick up the rules fast enough. 

[Valkyrion]

This is what I've decided on:

Side One (Death Guard):
10 Breachers
10 Tactical
10 Cataphractii
5 Missile Heavy Support
Melta Leviathan
Rhino
Cata Praetor

Side Two (Night Lords):
20 Tactical
5 Tartaros (Contekar)
5 Cataphractii
5 Jump Packs (Raptors)
Kratos Volkite
Jump Centurion

This covers a lot of bases - we've got a pinning vehicle, a dreadnought, a transport, deep strike, jump packs, heavy sub type, blast (frags), templates (contekar), fear and phosphex. 
It's somewhere between 1100 and 1300 a side, depending on artificer armour, vexillas, trophies, toxin bombs and so on, and it's kinda the same but different - one has missile launchers, the other jump packs, one has a dreadnought the other a tank, one is generally better at shooting the other at close combat etc. 

Is it too much? Moving isn't that much different from 40k, attacking still boils down to dice rolls but you consult a chart instead of WS3+ or whatever so he'll already have a basic understanding of the main principles of 30k, just not the important difference. 

[Dont-Be-Haten]

Well that cent is going to get annihilated if he gets into a challenge with the praetor, I know from personal experience trying to level a game like this. Just be aware 

[Marshal Mittens]

I think a preator, a contemptor, 5 terminators, 5 man tactical support squad, 5 man heavy support squad and 3x10 tactical marines to a side would make for a good intro game. 

[Xenith]

Those lists, on gut reaction, look very one sided for the death guard. The NL have no way of dealing with the leviathan and only a centurion. Stick the melta cannon and a flare shield on the kratos maybe?

Buy yea, if you assume it's a learning game and one side will get wiped, then you're good. Just play one game then swap forces so you both get to play with each army.

[Valkyrion]

The idea is more of a learning game than a competitive game, certainly, and I'm going to be the Night Lords as I have a better (read, some) understanding of old fashioned leadership tests, deep strikes, deflagrate and so on. 

I feel these lists cover a lot of the common special rules, rules that are substantially different from their 40k equivalent and give a small flavour of the legions they represent. 

We'll see how we get on!

[Claws and Effect]

I ran a demo game on release day at our FLGS that was mirrored forces that consisted of:

Praetor

10 Tactical in a Rhino

A Contemptor with Kheres and fist. 

 

Very small games played on half a normal size table. Slightly different goal though. In my case the goal was to get as many people through a game as possible in 1 day, so the games needed to go quickly. It was more to introduce new people to the system than to get 1 person familiar with it. And it was kind of a mess because I was still learning what had changed between editions myself. 

 

[Valkyrion]

Our game was fun and ended in a comprehensive Death Guard victory. The game wasn't about winning and losing, it was about learning both the rules and what the rules lead to, and when not to do things

Some obvious observations:

Being pinned is brutal.

Don't fire at a unit that can return fire better than you can shoot.

You really need AP2 to kill 2+ saves. This sound even more obvious, but I thought volume of attacks might do something - I think my maths is right here, but 5 raptors with lightning claws had 21 attacks on the charge, striking first, hitting on 3's, wounding on 4's with rerolls and they inflicted 1 wound on a terminator and were wiped out in return.  This was clearly a tactical error on my part, but it was also part of the plan because it was to show how multiple combats work - but yeah, double that raptor squad output for your 400 points and you kill a single terminator. Brutal. 

Deep striking was....fun and I can imagine in future games will also be stressful. My raptors had to charge the terminators because they scattered 10" away from their much more killable target. 

Overall we found very little to complain about.

Question - can you fall back through your own units? - T - Death Guard Terminators, N - Night Lord - B - Death Guard Breachers, Night Lords beat the breachers in the close combat and the breachers fail their morale check.

-------------------------------------table edge-----------------------

              N B B T T T
                N N B B T T T
                 N  N  B B  T T T T

 

The uppermost breachers can move directly backwards towards their table edge, but there are a couple sandwiched between Night Lords and Terminators. We ruled it that because you can move through enemy units as specifically stated, the sandwiched ones moved 1" through the Night Lords before continuing their move towards the table edge. 
It didn't feel like we did it properly, but neither of us could put our finger on why. 

[Xenith]

On 9/20/2022 at 10:10 AM, Valkyrion said:

Don't fire at a unit that can return fire better than you can shoot.

Yea, more than evern you can't really toss incidental bolt pistols or whatever into something unless your opponent has already used all their reaction allotment. Though in 6th/HH you shouldn't shoot at what you want to charge as you'll be casualty removed into a harder charge.

The 2+ saves feeling tough is something I like. It's nice to have that in the game again. Dont forget with dual claws, yo get +2A and claws have rending 6+. 5 dudes on the [non-disordered] charge with claws get 26 attacks, should get 17 hits vs WS4, then you're looking at 3 rends and 5 wounds from the first, and another rend and 4 more wounds from the reroll for 4 rends and 9 wounds. That's 2.5 dead cataphractii. Again, in HH/pre-8th ed, you need to send the right units after the right targets - there's no AP-2 is good against everything that we have in 9th ed. If you dont have the right tools for the job, you're in trouble.