Should special characters pay for their Relics?

[Toldavf]

Questions in the title, most of the newer special characters come with some form of relic level gear. For the army's with no special characters this isn't the end of the world but when certain characters can rock multiple relics would it not be fairer to attach a CP cost to some of those items?

 

[Captain Idaho]

With the reduction of available Command Points I'd say no.

I'm not gonna lie, I miss the days of extensive wargear sections that you paid points for. The Relic system doesn't give any incentive to taking something other than the best Relic every time.

Discussion used to be had and philosophies propagated as to the best solution - pay the extra points for powerful combat potential or save the points for more infantry? The old "boys or toys" conundrum. 

The problem with the Relic system in 40K is the same problem balancing the game using power level.

[Emperor Ming]

Ditto on the No

[tychobi]

Certainly not fair or more balanced with the proposed change.  Special characters have their costs wrapped into their points value.  The printed values may not reflect your opinion of them but that's 40k.  What is the goal of your proposed change?

[Warhead01]

I dislike special characters so I would say yes they should pay the CP. Or maybe twice the CP. Anything to encourage people to not use them, imop, is a good thing. 
 

[BLACK BLΠFLY]

No, as noted it’s baked into their points .

[Toldavf]

So what's a relic worth about say 10 points?  20 points? allot of the characters I see are only about that much over an equivalent base character. I would argue that since Nephilim you should not be dodging the CP tax on your character just because he has a name, they don't do it for warlord traits so why do it with relics?

By taking a named character in the slot lets pick on Helbrecht (though i could easily pick on Huron here too(though chaos lords are meh)) 1cp for the warlord trait and you are done, you can now take that cp and either bank it for the game or spend it on additional relics/traits for other units or buy matrial legacy units (martial legacy needs to go away but that's a different issue).

Neither of the units mentioned are more than 20 points than an equivalent nameless character and both have improved stat lines over those characters.

Please break down the points and show me where the relics are paid for.

Edited September 14, 2022 by Toldavf

[Special Officer Doofy]

Well alot of relics require usually specific wargear to replace, and those can have point costs associated with it even prior to the relic replacing, like paying points for a power fist and then replacing it with a relic, so 20+pts I'd say.

Typhus is 165pts compared to a lord of contagion's 120pts. Typhus has a mastercrafted version of the scythe, a mw mechanic, poxwalker strength buff and spells. But he is also sub legion locked, warlord trait locked (a poopy WLT at that), can't take the grenade and can't take the relic axe that is 3 damage with mortal wounds that the lord of contagion can. So seems like a fair trade off for 45pts. Most people take the lord of contagion with or without the relic over Typhus. There's an example.

Perhaps your issue is just the more broad issue of GW not being able to balance their game? Cause that has always been an issue and will probably always be an issue haha.

[Inquisitor_Lensoven]

I’m not understanding the question…im pretty sure their relics are paid for…in the unit’s points cost

[BLACK BLΠFLY]

I designed a Primaris Chapter built for melee with a relic weapon - 15 points less than Helbrecht.

[Helias_Tancred]

7 hours ago, Toldavf said:

Questions in the title, most of the newer special characters come with some form of relic level gear. For the army's with no special characters this isn't the end of the world but when certain characters can rock multiple relics would it not be fairer to attach a CP cost to some of those items?

 

No.

but .... 

Every 40k faction should have at least two special characters. That is not an undeliverable standard on GW's end (I think most factions do?).

 

Edited September 14, 2022 by Eilio Tiberius

[Special Officer Doofy]

11 minutes ago, Eilio Tiberius said:

Every 40k faction should have at least two special characters. That is not an undeliverable standard on GW's end (I think most factions do?).

The only xenos that doesn't is Genestealers, the only chaos that doesn't is chaos knights (since the chaos marines don't have supplements like the loyalist, I'm not counting them because they technically have 2+ in the codex), and the imperium that don't is knights, mechanicus, iron hands, white scars and raven guard. That's it I think? 

[Helias_Tancred]

2 minutes ago, Special Officer Doofy said:

The only xenos that doesn't is Genestealers, the only chaos that doesn't is chaos knights (since the chaos marines don't have supplements like the loyalist, I'm not counting them because they technically have 2+ in the codex), and the imperium that don't is knights, mechanicus, iron hands, white scars and raven guard. That's it I think? 

Okay, get hopping GW! Theres your next mission.

 

[Captain Idaho]

1 hour ago, Special Officer Doofy said:

The only xenos that doesn't is Genestealers, the only chaos that doesn't is chaos knights (since the chaos marines don't have supplements like the loyalist, I'm not counting them because they technically have 2+ in the codex), and the imperium that don't is knights, mechanicus, iron hands, white scars and raven guard. That's it I think? 

Um, Mechanicus have Cawl, Iron Hands Ferrios, White Scars Khan and Raven Guard have Shrike?

******

Anyway, I get the way special characters seem to miss out on paying for Relics is kind of cheating, but as people have mentioned their game balance is wrapped up in their points.

Which is what Relics should have really. Or be dropped entirely for expanded wargear sections? Same thing really.

Besides, with the reduction in starting CPs it becomes quite difficult to pay points ahead of games and enjoy all the Strategums we can. I've noticed a trend in games with people never using any bar a selection of specific Strategums now. Sure some people didn't use the peripheral Strategums but others did. Paying up front for Special Characters just kills their use or the use of certain FW choices or Strategums depending on the army.

[Cleon]

I'd prefer each relic have it's own points cost and not be related to CP at all (then some of the weaker 'fun' ones could be 5 points and the all powerful auto takes 25 points (for example), also would allow an escalator of 'second relic an additional 20 over that' etc.

[Special Officer Doofy]

3 minutes ago, Captain Idaho said:

Um, Mechanicus have Cawl, Iron Hands Ferrios, White Scars Khan and Raven Guard have Shrike?

Ah, you missed the part where they said atleast TWO special characters. 

2 hours ago, Eilio Tiberius said:

Every 40k faction should have at least two special characters. That is not an undeliverable standard on GW's end (I think most factions do?).

I wasn't counting guilliman either even though he can be souped in with a Supreme command Detachment to any chapter because I thought he was in the UM supplement. Not a marine guy though so I don't know.

[Captain Idaho]

Ah you are correct, you were replying directly to someone else who specifically mentioned that. My bad.

[Toldavf]

2 hours ago, Captain Idaho said:

Um, Mechanicus have Cawl, Iron Hands Ferrios, White Scars Khan and Raven Guard have Shrike?

******

Anyway, I get the way special characters seem to miss out on paying for Relics is kind of cheating, but as people have mentioned their game balance is wrapped up in their points.

Which is what Relics should have really. Or be dropped entirely for expanded wargear sections? Same thing really.

Besides, with the reduction in starting CPs it becomes quite difficult to pay points ahead of games and enjoy all the Strategums we can. I've noticed a trend in games with people never using any bar a selection of specific Strategums now. Sure some people didn't use the peripheral Strategums but others did. Paying up front for Special Characters just kills their use or the use of certain FW choices or Strategums depending on the army.

You see my point I think, though I think we disagree on the way to "Fix" it. 

[Captain Idaho]

Oh yeah, I totally get it. I mean, they're often more valuable than what you can build for yourself which is a problem. 

[Special Officer Doofy]

Certainly for some factions. But for others they are not that much better if not maybe even worse off, like my Typhus example. There's probably lots of issues and probably multiple solutions, but it all goes back to GW has a hard time balancing their game to begin with, whether it be unit stats and rules, point costs, relics, faction rules, mono bonuses, strats and what not.

[Khornestar]

IMO the only consideration worth discussing is re: balance. Being punitive because someone doesn’t like named characters is dead in the water afaik, and seems to thankfully have no bearing on how GW actually approaches the game. Just another instance of me being thankful GW writes the rules, wildly imperfect as they are.

I agree that given the current CP restrictions it’s too much to pay CP for relics and/or warlord traits when the points are already supposed to account for these bonuses.

The issue seems to be more the disparities among them, but there are always going to be superior and suboptimal choices. Tuning them so one is not just blatantly better than everything else would maybe be the move? 
 

 

[Lautrec the Embraced]

Maybe if those characters had a choice as in, normally for this character you get say a regular master-crafted power sword for free (as in, it's included in the price already) BUT if you pay you can replace it with this unique and powerful relic, somehow tied to your lore (like in the Heresy, Khârn normally had some chainaxe but if you pay dearly you could replace it with Gorechild). 

That being said, i think paying CPs for relics is always a horrible idea as it disincentivizes taking anything other than most broken ones. Most codex relics are not worth taking and the only solution is letting us pay with points. Otherwise why even bother with writing rules for so many in the next codices. The same goes for named characters, few have some really nice gear that you'd accept paying CPs for. And what if a guy has a named sword, a mediocre-but-still-named pistol and some otherwise unique armour? Here, take me 3 CPs, right?

I think paying CPs could just work but only with the absolute best of the relics and assuming there is an alternative for named characters that cannot afford that. All that SI gear and weak relics would be paid in points/baked in profile already and allowed to combo (for real, a master-crafted power axe and a funky bolt pistol seem hardly broken on a SM captain...), but only ever one Uber-Relic for CP.

[Slave to Darkness]

Should be included in the base points of said character, so no they shouldnt cost CP. CP's were a bad idea to start with... Hope they scrap that in future editions. 

[Halandaar]

CP costs for wargear items is a load of nonsense anyway. Everything should be points only, with relics attracting an additional points cost over the un-upgraded item they replace, and special characters remain as they are (a single points cost for their entire kit including gear/relics).

[Toldavf]

I think most people seem to be of the opinion that CP for wargear is a bad idea in general solving the problem by going the other way about it (free for all at least from cp cost). I'm happy enough with that.