First turn charges with flyers?

[Volth]

So  in the article about Fast Attack, about Storm Eagles Goonhammer states:

Quote

Overall the storm eagle is a useful unit to have in your army. I wouldn’t put anything too expensive inside but it will let you deliver a scoring unit somewhere now and then, while just shooting things up in most games. And if you want to have five of these roar on in turn 1 to launch a hundred world eater despoilers at the enemy with the Angel’s Wrath RoW, go right ahead because that’s awesome.

Awesome, yea. But possible? Seems to me that zooming flyers just are put into normal reserves and the rite does not change this. So the flyers would enter turn 1, but as they are entering from reserves assault ramps still do not enable disembark and charge, right?

Edited September 18, 2022 by Volth

[Cactus]

I don't think the text you quoted is implying the infantry can disembark and charge in turn 1. It's simply saying that your mass of aircraft can arrive on turn 1.

[The Scorpion]

All those flyers risk getting reacted with Interceptor tho

What would be a good way to help those Storm Eagles survive turn 1?

[Mandragola]

I actually wrote that article. I wasn’t saying they’d charge on turn one, only that they’d arrive then. That’s the effect of the Angel’s Wrath Rite of War. Sorry for the confusion.

In the article I mention that it’s problematic to use flyers as assault transports because you have to wait so long for them to arrive. Even if you pass the first reserve roll they won’t be in assault before turn three at the earliest, and only then if they aren’t shot down first. 

Angel’s Wrath provides a solution to one of these problems and partially solves the other. The planes all arrive on turn one, all at once. They can deliver assault troops in turn two and any interceptor fire will have to be split between all the planes that arrive. Interceptor reactions are certainly a problem for planes but I don’t think anyone’s likely to be able to shoot down five Storm Eagles.

This was kind of a throwaway comment on what’s possible and might be fun. It wasn’t intended as a recommendation.

[Volth]

11 hours ago, Mandragola said:

This was kind of a throwaway comment on what’s possible and might be fun. It wasn’t intended as a recommendation.

I like it though. It's the kind of army I want to play. First turn charge would have been kinda wonderful. But then again, not for the opponent I guess - and I like balanced and flavourful warhammer a lot more than list-crunching-foo.

[The Scorpion]

On 9/19/2022 at 8:37 PM, Volth said:

I like it though. It's the kind of army I want to play. First turn charge would have been kinda wonderful. But then again, not for the opponent I guess - and I like balanced and flavourful warhammer a lot more than list-crunching-foo.

Flight of the Valkyries

[MichaelCarmine]

On 9/19/2022 at 8:37 PM, Volth said:

I like it though. It's the kind of army I want to play. First turn charge would have been kinda wonderful. But then again, not for the opponent I guess - and I like balanced and flavourful warhammer a lot more than list-crunching-foo.

I don't have my book at work, but i'm pretty shure, You can have that, You just have to use the DropPod Rite of War.

It enables You to drop with Your Pods turn one and charge from pods, which have the AssaultVehicle special rule (Kharybdis).

This Rite also enabled the Kharybdis to Deep Strike, which it couldn't do before the Errata updatet it to have the DeepStrike special rule.

[Ripper.McGuirl]

Pardon my ignorance, but what prevents the turn one charge? Just that you can't charge if you come on via reserves at all? Can you charge from deep strike? If so, what stops you from charging from the assault ramp of a deep striking transport? Does that rite limit you to the type of reserve depoloyment you're allowed to use when coming on turn 1?

Edited September 27, 2022 by Ripper.McGuirl

[SkimaskMohawk]

1 hour ago, Ripper.McGuirl said:

Pardon my ignorance, but what prevents the turn one charge? Just that you can't charge if you come on via reserves at all? Can you charge from deep strike? If so, what stops you from charging from the assault ramp of a deep striking transport? Does that rite limit you to the type of reserve depoloyment you're allowed to use when coming on turn 1?

You still arrive from reserves when you do a deepstrike assault.

And I remember when that article came out that it was definitely better than the previous ones lol. 

 

Edited September 27, 2022 by SkimaskMohawk

[Mandragola]

So the normal rules for reserves (p, 309) are that you can't assault on the turn you arrive. If your plane was to just fly on in skimmer mode you could disembark but not charge. 

On the other hand, a unit inside a deep-striking flyer counts as having performed a deep strike assault*. Therefore it can't move any further in the movement phase (p.311) and so they can't get out of their transport, meaning they won't be able to assault.

* I know that the plane is the thing that actually deep strikes but the units inside are still assigned to deep strike reserve and perform the assault with it.

Note that drop pods have Impact Reactive Doors, allowing (or forcing) the passengers out on the turn they arrive. But their rules also prevent you from charging as you arrive.

I get the impression GW are deliberately preventing surprise T1 charges. Infiltrators and scouts can't do it either, for example. The Drop Pod assault RoW does seem to allow it, but only using a Kharibdys.

[SkimaskMohawk]

The rules, like always, seem to use terms in multiple ways. Reserves are both the staging area for anything not deployed on the board, and the standard method for those units to arrive on the battlefield.

Both DSA and FA are presented as Reserves: ".......". Their rules also don't reestablish the processes from the standard reserves; theyre instead written as an add-on to the reserve rules, with certain phrases underlining that they're subsets like:

Quote

Before the start of Game Turn 1, when placing units into Reserve, a player may choose to assign one or more of their units in Reserve to perform a Deep Strike Assault. 

They're still in reserves, they still arrive from reserves, but theyre performing something specialized. Which happens to be the header of the next section, not "arriving from deepstrike assault" .

Impact reactive doors restriction on charging doesn't really mean anything, as you're always barred from charging off a disembark by the normal disembark rules. Ditto for DPA's "restriction" on charging; the allowance of assault vehicles is important because the unit is arriving from reserves and would usually be barred.

[Lord Krungharr]

Regarding the Interceptor-ing of 5 flyers, I think we can only Intercept 1 unit per enemy Movement Phase unless we have an additional Reaction somehow in that Phase (Ravenguard have that in a way or two IIRC).  But with 3 Deredeos or Helical Dreads w dual lascannons, you could Intercept 1 flyer, then if you have 2 Reactions in the Shooting Phase, shoot two of them with Return Fire if they're targeted separately.   Fury of the Ancients for the win!

[General Zodd]

12 hours ago, Lord Krungharr said:

Regarding the Interceptor-ing of 5 flyers, I think we can only Intercept 1 unit per enemy Movement Phase unless we have an additional Reaction somehow in that Phase (Ravenguard have that in a way or two IIRC).  But with 3 Deredeos or Helical Dreads w dual lascannons, you could Intercept 1 flyer, then if you have 2 Reactions in the Shooting Phase, shoot two of them with Return Fire if they're targeted separately.   Fury of the Ancients for the win!

Getting additional Intercept reactions is really simple and readily accessible through Augury Scanners, though. I think it makes deploying reserves anywhere near your opponent a very risky strategy to build around.

[TheTrans]

On 9/30/2022 at 6:23 PM, General Zodd said:

Getting additional Intercept reactions is really simple and readily accessible through Augury Scanners, though. I think it makes deploying reserves anywhere near your opponent a very risky strategy to build around.

Near isn't even a problem anymore, without the 18" range restriciton they honestly just :cuss: on reserves across the board. 

[Mandragola]

Interception is much less of a problem for flyers than it is for infantry deep striking or outflanking. Planes don’t have to worry about tactical squads doing fury of the legion at them. Generally only HWS with missile launchers and stuff with big guns and helical arrays are a problem and not all lists will have even one of those. Someone bringing on a lot of planes is unlikely to lose more than one in their movement phase. They can then shoot up the AA stuff in the shooting phase and probably rule the skies for the rest of the game. 

It’s not hard to imagine someone bringing an allied detachment with a telepathy librarian to switch off a dread’s reactions and then it’s happy days. 

[Ripper.McGuirl]

Thanks for clearing all this up. So the assault ramp on something like a caestus doesn't do any good on a deep strike because they aren't impact-reactive. So unless you're running the rite that allows flyers on turn one, you're not disembarking until at least turn 3, no matter what.
I'll need to get more games in, but so far, I am not getting a good sense of how to make Deep Strike heavy armies work without getting shot like 80 times.

[Dwango]

Apologies for the threadomancy

 

I'm just wondering if the V1.1 FAQ changes the answer to this? The Q was asked if a unit, that has disembarked from an assault vehicle, can charge on a turn where it entered from reserves. The answer was no but the designers note states that the deep strike and outflank rules override this. 

 

So, is it suggesting that units can be deployed from an assault vehicle (storm eagle) via a deep strike? Therefore these units can then make a charge? 

 

The designers notes actually mention the deep strike assault right of war but I presume the RoW bit is a mistake and should not be there?!

 

For what it's worth I am about to paint a storm eagle and fire raptor for my 1st legion and am looking for a way to utilise these in a ravenwing list. Lots of out riders, jet bikes, javelins and assault squads. Not after a first turn charge just wanting to be able to do something before getting shot up. 

[Brofist]

Yes. The FAQ lets you charge out of assault vehicles if they've come in from deepstrike assault or outflank

[SkimaskMohawk]

The full answer is a bit messy. The FAQ says you can charge, but the mechanics that actually revolve around disembark and deepstike....kinda block the disembark part depending on the vehicle.

Deepstrike tells you the units appear and they can't move any further. Most of disembarking requires movement, as you place a model touching the access point and move it, one at a time, but the initial placement isn't movement in of itself. This allows you to disembark units off a deepstrike if you can have the entire unit touching the access point without moving; flyers bases being the best example. Unfortunately, it means if Alpharius deepstrikes a spartan with 20 guys, they can't functionally disembark that turn. 

 

It's all written terribly, and the intent is probably allowed normal disembark pre-intercept.

[Brofist]

How about outflank?

[SkimaskMohawk]

44 minutes ago, Brofist said:

How about outflank?

 

Outflank is a little weirder/more normal because the units do get a move to come onto the table. So I think you can fully disembark on the flanking assault, before interceptor, during that initial movement. But its still hard to charge because you can only go half speed to allow disembark, and raiders are a bit clunky to set up with 5(?) inches of move. 

[TheTrans]

I find it funny that the defense of Interceptor everywhere is to stop stuff like DSA hurling itself into your lines, sure no worries.

But a flyer meandering into the board a million miles away from an 'at threat' unit just gets hosed off the board for free due to DSA fear?

 

Limit interceptor or at least augury scanners to 18" again, it allows flyers to actually deploy in a reasonable maNNer and have some say in if they get shot at for free, while at the same time still allows you to touch up the dreaded DSA.

Edited March 1, 2023 by TheTrans
spelling