Clarifications on RoW & unit slots

[Dont-Be-Haten]

I'm pretty sure I've been doing this right, but just to make sure. When making a Rite of War detachment we use the Crusade Force Organization chart, and then the restrictions put forth by the RoW right?

So for example in a Decapitation Strike Force, we remove the fortification options and reduce the heavy support to 0-1. Keeping the remaining compulsory 1 HQ 2 Troops. With the option of 1-3HQs, 2-6 Troops, 0-4 Elites, 0-3 fast, 0-1 Primarch? 

Then we can ally in a Lord of War or  secondary detachment such as a Legion Recon Company in order to take the same army faction, correct?  Furthermore using this type of secondary detachment, I summarize, should keep us from having to use an allied detachment which -must- be from a different army faction.

Thanks in advance.

DBH

Edited September 19, 2022 by Dont-Be-Haten

[Gorgoff]

53 minutes ago, Dont-Be-Haten said:

I'm pretty sure I've been doing this right, but just to make sure. When making a Rite of War detachment we use the Crusade Force Organization chart, and then the restrictions put forth by the RoW right?

 

Right.

Although an allied force can have a Rite of War as well if the limitations don't say otherwise.

[Dont-Be-Haten]

16 minutes ago, Gorgoff said:

Right.

Although an allied force can have a Rite of War as well if the limitations don't say otherwise.

That's what I thought too, though until more supplements come out I think it's going to be hard to build a second RoW using an allied detachment force org.

[Hfran Morkai]

2 hours ago, Dont-Be-Haten said:

 

Then we can ally in a Lord of War or  secondary detachment such as a Legion Recon Company in order to take the same army faction, correct?  Furthermore using this type of secondary detachment, I summarize, should keep us from having to use an allied detachment which -must- be from a different army faction.

 

 

I think your Allied Detachment would still need to be a different (sub)faction.

 

So you couldn't run SW Primary and SW Allies for example.

 

I apologise if that's not what you are talking about, it's been a rough long week at work and still got one more shift to go.

[SkimaskMohawk]

Page 281 in the cutout says allies must always be a different factions, and factions are individual legions. You can't double dip in the same legion to get like, double pride or whatever.

[MichaelCarmine]

...as long as your Faction has no Special Rules, like Mechanicum xD

[Dont-Be-Haten]

3 hours ago, SkimaskMohawk said:

Page 281 in the cutout says allies must always be a different factions, and factions are individual legions. You can't double dip in the same legion to get like, double pride or whatever.

You should just take an optional detachment rather than an allied one and problem is solved. As long as the secondary detachment meets the requirements you can run the same faction twice since page 280 of the BRB states this can be used for larger games and is optional rather than allied.

[SkimaskMohawk]

1 hour ago, Dont-Be-Haten said:

You should just take an optional detachment rather than an allied one and problem is solved. As long as the secondary detachment meets the requirements you can run the same faction twice since page 280 of the BRB states this can be used for larger games and is optional rather than allied.

That's not at all what the rules say.

280 says that Force organization charts are comprised of detachments (a required/primary and optional ones), but nowhere does it say the player chooses which are the required and which are optional. 281 shows that the Crusade foc has 1 required detachment and 2 optional in the lords of war and allied detachments. The text blurb above the FoC cutout explicitly says once the compulsory units from the primary are filled, you can take stuff from the optional allied and/or lord of war detachment; not a player chosen detachment that they've designated as optional.  

[Dont-Be-Haten]

"As an example..." you left that part out...

Optional does not equal allied detachment. 

"Most FOC, including the crusade chart illustrated opposite, comprise several detachments. Each detachment within a FOC is a discrete set of units, effectively. Sub-force organization chart, that allows players to customize their army further to include additional forces when playing larger games..."

"Any other detachments are considered optional -- A player may choose to incorporate them into their army or not, at their own discretion. However; if a player decides to include an optional detachment then all compulsory slots from that optional detachment must also be filled. Regardless of its type, either primary or optional, all models in a single detachment must be of the same faction..."

 

Edit: to point out your logic that all optional detachments are considered allies there would be no way to field more of your army. I can't agree with your line in the sand. But you've chosen other hills to die on so I'm not surprised. 

Edited September 20, 2022 by Dont-Be-Haten

[SkimaskMohawk]

2 hours ago, Dont-Be-Haten said:

"As an example..." you left that part out...

Yes, they are using the Crusade FoC as an example of what a FoC chart looks like; all three Libers also have the same chart for Crusade with the same stipulations of Primary being required and allied & low being optional. It's not an example that Crusade has 3 detachments that you have complete freedom to assign as required and optional, just like the Questoris Household FoC isn't an example of 2 detachments that you assign. 

2 hours ago, Dont-Be-Haten said:

Optional does not equal allied detachment. 

I know. How you think I said that is concerning, because I never made that claim.  An allied detachment is one of two optional detachments in a Crusade FoC; I said that both are optional twice:

8 hours ago, SkimaskMohawk said:

2 optional in the lords of war and allied detachments

8 hours ago, SkimaskMohawk said:

the optional allied and/or lord of war detachment

 

2 hours ago, Dont-Be-Haten said:

Edit: to point out your logic that all optional detachments are considered allies there would be no way to field more of your army. I can't agree with your line in the sand. But you've chosen other hills to die on so I'm not surprised.

I'll just repeat that you're making up an argument I never made. All allied detachments are considered optional detachments, but not all optional detachments are allied. regardless of that, if your army is Raven Guard and you've filled out your primary, you can only get more Raven Guard in the form of Lords of War. There's no detachment expansion like 8th or 9th. 

Finally, I'm not sure what you mean about hills to die on, but that's not surprising considering the general quality of the rest of the post. Was it that time I claimed getting pinned while charging broke the game state with no rules explaining what would happened?  

[TheNineteenth]

On 9/19/2022 at 11:55 PM, SkimaskMohawk said:

Yes, they are using the Crusade FoC as an example of what a FoC chart looks like; all three Libers also have the same chart for Crusade with the same stipulations of Primary being required and allied & low being optional. It's not an example that Crusade has 3 detachments that you have complete freedom to assign as required and optional, just like the Questoris Household FoC isn't an example of 2 detachments that you assign. 

I know. How you think I said that is concerning, because I never made that claim.  An allied detachment is one of two optional detachments in a Crusade FoC; I said that both are optional twice:

 

I'll just repeat that you're making up an argument I never made. All allied detachments are considered optional detachments, but not all optional detachments are allied. regardless of that, if your army is Raven Guard and you've filled out your primary, you can only get more Raven Guard in the form of Lords of War. There's no detachment expansion like 8th or 9th. 

Finally, I'm not sure what you mean about hills to die on, but that's not surprising considering the general quality of the rest of the post. Was it that time I claimed getting pinned while charging broke the game state with no rules explaining what would happened?  

Anuj et al have really made a mess conflating or intentionally inverting Force Organization Charts and Detachments as they appeared in 6th ed 40k onward.

That said, I think you are bound by the Force Organization Chart on p281. I do not see anywhere that enables you to take multiple Force Organization charts (previously something that Detachments contained; Anuj has inverted the structure to say that Force Organization Charts contain Detachments, rather than Detachments contain Force Organization Charts).

Instead, I think we simply have the Crusade or Questoris Knight Household Force Organization Charts that stipulate the entire possible and count-limited list of Detachments you can take in an army list, with the number of each being limited to one.

I really wish I agreed with you, as this would be more flexible and interesting, but fear we are actually stuck in the 6th ed "let's turn back the clock on rules changes" NoVA Open "1999+1" format of a single Force Organization Chart (which now means 1 Primary Detachment, and Optionally, 1 Allied Detachment ,1 Lord of War Detachment and/or 1 Fortification Detachment).

[SkimaskMohawk]

1 hour ago, TheNineteenth said:

Anuj et al have really made a mess conflating or intentionally inverting Force Organization Charts and Detachments as they appeared in 6th ed 40k onward.

That said, I think you are bound by the Force Organization Chart on p281. I do not see anywhere that enables you to take multiple Force Organization charts (previously something that Detachments contained; Anuj has inverted the structure to say that Force Organization Charts contain Detachments, rather than Detachments contain Force Organization Charts).

Instead, I think we simply have the Crusade or Questoris Knight Household Force Organization Charts that stipulate the entire possible and count-limited list of Detachments you can take in an army list, with the number of each being limited to one.

I really wish I agreed with you, as this would be more flexible and interesting, but fear we are actually stuck in the 6th ed "let's turn back the clock on rules changes" NoVA Open "1999+1" format of a single Force Organization Chart (which now means 1 Primary Detachment, and Optionally, 1 Allied Detachment ,1 Lord of War Detachment and/or 1 Fortification Detachment).

I uh, don't really understand a lot of the post.

I don't think they flipped the foc structure from 7th, as the old 2016 epub legion army list still has the FoC as the thing that contains detachments, with a reference to discarding access to an additional primary detachment at 2000.

I agree that you get to pick 1 FoC and are stuck with its corresponding detachments, and don't think I indicated that you could take multiple FoCs in a list. What I tried to say is the example used for crusade is of how FoCs are structured with their specific detachments.