Torrent Weapons and Shroud Bombs/Obfuscation & Lies

[9x19 Parabellum]

How does the torrent weapon property (and/or templates) interact with the Shroud Bomb rules and/or Obfuscation & Lies Alpha Legion trait.

Last night I played against Word Bearers who dropped in some Ashen Circle with flamers that have torrent 6.  We were confused if there's any interoperability between that and rules which increase the range of the target. 

[Stitch5000]

Since you don't actually have to measure the distance that enemy models are from a model makig an attack with a template weapon, I imagine you just continue to use them as you would normally... 

[9x19 Parabellum]

hi Stitch. That's how we played it last night and I thought that interpretation was right.  Now I'm re-reading the rules and I'm not so sure.

The exact wording on Shroud Bombs is as follows:

"Whenever targeted by a shooting attack, the range between an attacking unit and a unit that includes at least one model with shroud bombs is considered to be 6" further than the actual range between the two units."

So this is a BUFF to the targeted unit, not a DEBUFF to the shooter.   In other words, Shroud Bombs don't affect the shooter, or his gun (specifically the "range" value of the gun). It's a buff to the virtual position of the targeted unit.   If Shroud Bomb wording was "reduce the maximum range value of the shooter's ranged weapons by 6 inches", I would agree that it probably doesn't affect flamer/torrent weapons, as they don't have a range value...(or rather they do, but it is not expressed in inches, and as such is not subject to maluses which are expressed in inches.)

[9x19 Parabellum]

As a secondary follow-up to this, I then went back and re-read carefully the wording for "Lies and Obfuscation" which states that:

"A model with this special rule is always considered to be 2" further away than it actually is when measuring range to it from any model for the purpose of resolving a shooting attack, charge, or any reaction declared by an enemy model or unit".

 

Now for L&O, I actually think the template and torrent special rule would hard counter Alpha Legion's legion trait?  Why?  The triggers are:

-when MEASURING range to it...

-when resolving a shooting attack, charge, or reaction.

The template does not measure range to the target model/unit. It is simply placed down on the table. 

 

[Brofist]

Yep. The template is not measured. You just put it down so it basically avoids those rules.

[Noserenda]

Hmmm, id probably deduct the distance from the torrent value but working it out around the template itself would be bloody awkward, or make recon marines near immune to flamers which feels odd too.

Needs an faq really.

[Cactus]

It seems reasonable to me that templates can circumvent the Alpha Legion rule like this. What do you do when you aren't exactly sure where your target is? Set the area on fire!

[Claws and Effect]

I'd say shroud bombs and the like don't affect torrent weapons. 

It makes logical sense, even. 

"Brother, see that suspicious cloud of smoke over there? Light it on fire!"

[SkimaskMohawk]

Templates are a weird outlier to the normal shooting sequence, but it's one thats never really acknowledged; obviously shroud bombs don't touch on them.

Functionally they don't check range with inches; the range is the shape of the template that's placed in a specific way. If you're under the template, then you're in range.

Now the bombs say you are considered to be 6" further away than the actual range between the two units, and usually how it works is if the range between the two units + 6 is more than the maximum range of the weapon, they now can't fire as they're out of range. But the range is template; if you're under it you are in range.

Imo, shroud bombs don't work against the template, as one has to invent clauses about further and the direction of the squad and keeping the same position and all that, on top of reading a maximum range in inches to the template rules.

[Lord Krungharr]

But the Torrent has a distance in inches in the weapon profiles, thus I'd say it's reasonable to presume the Torrent (distance) gets 6" subtracted from it, which in the OPs case is 6".  So they're regular template weapons at that point.  But the Flamestorm Cannon for example is Torrent (18"), so would be then Torrent (12").  

Regular flamers of course don't have a distance in inches in their profile, they start at the base of the model and lay there, so I would agree that Shroud Bombs and similar rules do not work against normal Template weapons or affect the Templates once placed.  

[WrathOfTheLion]

It doesn't make any sense for it to affect template weapons, even torrent weapons, since you aren't directly targeting the unit. In the rule for AL, it mentions for the purposes of resolving a shooting attack, which to me means standard shooting, not blast/template weapons.

As a thought experiment, what if shooting a template weapon at a unit in an allied detachment, but clipping an AL unit? At what point would be the crossover? Because the template unit doesn't have a direct target, you wouldn't be able to answer that question.

[Xenith]

Torrent doesnt care about, or measure how far away the enemy unit is. You just place the template within x" of the firing unit, so is unaffected by Shroud and AL rules. 

On 9/23/2022 at 5:05 PM, 9x19 Parabellum said:

So this is a BUFF to the targeted unit, not a DEBUFF to the shooter.

Not really, it's just a flat range increase, best not to apply any kind of intent to it. If I'm armed with a conversion beam cannon, shroud bombs and lies and obfuscation is actually a buff to the shooting unit. 

[Stitch5000]

Neither Template nor Torrent (x) rules really menton calculating the range between any models, as mentioned above (indeed the actual size and shape of a template isn't really defined either). 

These factors lead me to conclude that the AL rule doesn't have any effect in these situations. 

 

[Xenith]

Yea, Small blast is also defined as a circle 3" diameter: models are under marker are hit if they're within 1.5" of the centre of the blast. If the argument is that markers and templates should be affected by shroud and lies modifiers, my Alphas will never be within 1.5" of the centre of the small blast marker. 

[Noserenda]

But the torrent distance is not part of the marker, fairly obviously, and no, a flamethrower will not accurately hit a unit if you are aiming 30ft in the wrong direction because you dont know exactly where they are on that kinda scale. Like, "I know they are in the woods but not exactly where" is a bit different to them being in a tank length away from where you think they are.

Equally, the argument that you just place the end of the flamer template at some point of the Torrent range is really exactly how Blast weapons work too, (Albeit with scattering) are we arguing Blast weapons ignore these rules too? 

Thats why it needs someone to make an faq call.

[SkimaskMohawk]

Torrent doesn't change anything. It says it's treated like any other template weapon, but you can place the template within a number of inches as indicated in the rule. And that you can do some angle shots. It doesn't create a maximum range for a template weapon; their range is still whatever is under the template.

Making torrent interact with shroud bombs would require reading in the templates exact length and torrent value as the maximum range in a radius from the firing model, and then making up clauses for what "further away" actually means. It get especially wonky with the angle shots of torrent; if they get a sick 90 degree placement, are you going to be further away parallel or perpendicular to the template? How many models are now going to be hit? What if they just change their actual placement, since targeting and rolling to hit are different steps?

 

 

[Stitch5000]

Probably one to send through the the FAQ inbox... 

[Lord Krungharr]

Yeah I see what the other side is saying; it would need to be D6d until FAQd I think.

[Cadmus Tyro]

Interesting discussion, I agree about standard template weapons and the lack of affect L&O and Shroud bombs have on their use. 
 

But torrent does require measuring a range, for which the models are counted as being further away than usual. The text “for the purpose of resolving a shooting attack” support this for me, because for torrent, you need to measure a range for the purpose of resolving a shooting attack. 
 

But there’s ambiguity I agree, I could argue it both ways…..and I might be a little biased…..

 

Cadmus 

[Cactus]

However Torrent does NOT require you to measure range to the target, so I would argue that RAW the shroud bomb and L&O effects aren't triggered.

It's definitely a clunky interaction that could use some clarification.

[SkimaskMohawk]

1 hour ago, Cadmus Tyro said:

But torrent does require measuring a range, for which the models are counted as being further away than usual. The text “for the purpose of resolving a shooting attack” support this for me, because for torrent, you need to measure a range for the purpose of resolving a shooting attack. 

Technically, torrent doesn't use the word "range" once. But more importantly it says to place the template within the number of inches indicated by the value, then elaborating that you choose a point within 18" for a weapon with torrent (18). 

If you're measuring to a point and placing, then the distance doesn't get cut by a unit you're not measuring ranges to. For that matter, it doesn't cut any ranges in the first place; it counts the target as being further away for ranges. Theres no subtraction of distances happening, just like there's no hypothetical positions; if there's a solid wall right behind the recons, you don't get to pretend theyre 6" further away behind it and break los (or dodge flamer templates). It's for ranges, meaning the maximum weapon range for targetting and wound allocation.

 

[Xenith]

3 hours ago, Stitch5000 said:

Probably one to send through the the FAQ inbox... 

 

3 hours ago, Lord Krungharr said:

Yeah I see what the other side is saying; it would need to be D6d until FAQd I think.

I disagree there - the rules are pretty clear - template weapons are not affected by range, shroud bombs and L&O do not affect ranges measured from a model, just to the model that has those rules. The template is just placed up to the distance away from the firing model, you never measure range to an enemy model. 

[Cadmus Tyro]

1 hour ago, Cactus said:

However Torrent does NOT require you to measure range to the target, so I would argue that RAW the shroud bomb and L&O effects aren't triggered.

It's definitely a clunky interaction that could use some clarification.

I disagree, template weapons still require a range measurement, they are range “template”, you just use the template to measure with rather than a tape measure. There’s nothing in the template rules that state you don’t measure range, it states you don’t roll to hit. 
 

I think your arguing about the semantics of the word “range” being absent in the torrent rules. Will you be estimating 18”?  If it’s outside of 18” and the template length presumably we consider the unit to be out of range? 

Anyway, I see both sides of the argument, just playing devils advocate! 

p.s. I believe RAI supports your argument of L&O NOT activating with template or torrent, that’s how I’ll be playing it for now. There’s IMHO ambiguity with RAW.

Cadmus 

Edited September 26, 2022 by Cadmus Tyro

[Brofist]

It seems pretty clear to me that these rules don't affect templates, including torrent

[Xenith]

13 hours ago, Cadmus Tyro said:

template weapons still require a range measurement, they are range “template”, you just use the template to measure with rather than a tape measure

No, they don't. This is covered in the Template Spcial Rule - you don't measure range or roll to hit, you just place the template and anything under it is hit. 

Occam's razor - the simplest solution is the most likely. If you have to do a bunch of mental gymnastics to make this affect torrent and template weapons, then it's probably not how it works.