Return Fire... now shoot back first before the fire you're returning fires? lol

[TheNineteenth]

They seem to have FAQ'd up how Return Fire works.

Specifically, the textual changes to p160 now makes Return Fire expended (and thus, go off!) BEFORE the Shooting Attack that prompted it!

How is this a Reaction, how is this RETURN Fire? 

We do have text on p159 exempting Reacted-to units from having to take Leadership tests, but nothing to say that they can't be, say, totally removed from play before they get to make their Shooting Attack against the Heavy Support Squad with Lascannons, e.g. that they fired at!

Much of this problem is because of the text in the second column on p166 indicating that Shooting Phase Reactions operate immediately upon electing to expend the point.

Edited September 23, 2022 by TheNineteenth

[Brother Kraskor]

Whilst this might be a RAW problem I cannot conceive of continuing a game against an opponent who seriously wants to play Return Fire as Before Fire.

[MARK0SIAN]

Yeah, the shooting reactions are already too strong IMO, this makes return fire absolutely absurd both in concept and execution. It will effectively make some units immune to shooting from certain units that would be too vulnerable to the preemptive return fire. I won’t be playing it this way as it’s just stupid and I really hope this is an oversight that gets corrected quickly rather than an intentional design choice. 

[Gorgoff]

RAW it is before the enemy can shoot but I strongly recommend to make it parallel. 

[SkimaskMohawk]

I saw some arguments about the exact nature of the sequencing, though I haven't looked at it closely myself.

IIRC the argument is that the models start their shooting attack at step 3 of the shooting sequence chart/select a weapon and that allows that weapon pool to continue on to the hit and wound steps even if they die to the return fire. It would stop other weapons from being fired if the model had firing protocols and was removed, or if another model with a different weapon was killed.

 

[Laughingman]

6 hours ago, SkimaskMohawk said:

I saw some arguments about the exact nature of the sequencing, though I haven't looked at it closely myself.

IIRC the argument is that the models start their shooting attack at step 3 of the shooting sequence chart/select a weapon and that allows that weapon pool to continue on to the hit and wound steps even if they die to the return fire. It would stop other weapons from being fired if the model had firing protocols and was removed, or if another model with a different weapon was killed.

 

The FAQ needs a FAQ... Or they need to stop letting interns or management consultant types touch FAQs....

Edited September 26, 2022 by Laughingman

[MichaelCarmine]

5 hours ago, Laughingman said:

The FAQ needs a FAQ... Or they need to stop letting interns or management consultant types touch FAQs....

You mean like:

A Model which is fearless cannot use a shrouding Damage Mitigation Roll - so technically, Corax cannot use his own "unique" Shrouding (4+) DMR? xD

[Blight1]

Ah this is actually an issue of when it says to declare and resolve the reaction.  It's not actually before the enemy shooting attack starts like an ability that procs from being targeted like the ad mech reaction.  It happens right before the enemy rolls to hit rolls.  The steps before you roll to hit are determining which models are in range and can shoot.  You create the to hit pool before the reaction happens so no matter how many models die in the shooting unit their shooting attack pool is already created and cannot be altered.

[TheNineteenth]

On 9/26/2022 at 10:26 AM, Blight1 said:

Ah this is actually an issue of when it says to declare and resolve the reaction.  It's not actually before the enemy shooting attack starts like an ability that procs from being targeted like the ad mech reaction.  It happens right before the enemy rolls to hit rolls.  The steps before you roll to hit are determining which models are in range and can shoot.  You create the to hit pool before the reaction happens so no matter how many models die in the shooting unit their shooting attack pool is already created and cannot be altered.

I was initially inclined to this interpretation. Unfortunately, it still (at best) means that further weapons after the initial shooting attack of a unit can be forestalled if the unit is deleted. This creates the same sort of counter as Overwatch-baiting.

Edited September 27, 2022 by TheNineteenth

[Mandragola]

It’s a pretty vastly-written FAQ. I think the interpretation that the original firing unit continues from step 3 is correct - you’ve already determined who shoots so they still do, even if dead. But that doesn’t really work for units with multiple weapon types and they might be pinned by this point. They don’t seem to have thought of that, or explained what they want to happen. It wouldn’t have been hard to just tell us to resolve them simultaneously. 

The shrouding and fearless thing is annoying too. They’ve actually removed one clause (which I never noticed when it did exist) that prevented fearless units using reactions that Grant damage mitigation, allowing Mortarion and Corax to do their Legions’ advanced reactions. The shrouding issue seems to prevent models, not units, from making shrouding rolls. So I think now a unit of dark furies with Corax can do their advanced reaction and everyone but him gets 4+ shrouding. 

There are a number of issues not fixed with particular units. How many attacks do Contempotors with dual fists get, do Xiphons really snap fire when they intercept enemy flyers and should Armigers really be immune to haywire and krak grenades, but not poison?

[ashc]

FAQ needs an FAQ, I honestly think this is really poor. Goonhammer has explained it's interpretation of the new ruling here.

 

https://www.goonhammer.com/horus-heresy-ruleshammer-shooting-reactions/

 

[RoadRunna]

In life it is often said that if you make a mistake "own it".... Unfortunately the easiest way out of this mess is for GW to own the mistake and fix the FAQ so that Return Fire works appropriately... However there are two more likely alternatives:

1) GW want Return Fire to work this (who knows why?) - thus making it way OP when trying to kill off a heavy weapon squad (or example) or

2) we are in for another FAQ to try and unscramble this mess which could lead to more issues that we have yet to know about.