The end of in store gaming?

[Slave to Darkness]

I have just seen this video about GW not allowing games in store these days. I dont use the local GW so its not something I have seen (or not seen in this case) first hand. 

I understand its not a good look for the store/hobby as a whole having a ton of unwashed neckbeards screaming at each other all day scaring (potential) paying customers and new recruits away, but when I was GW staff the store tables were intended for intro games all week except games nights (every thursday back in those days) when the store stayed open a few hours later and 'vets' could play from 4pm till close (usually 8-9pm depending on how soon the poor staff member working that late wants to go home, 8 was the actual close but if we didnt have anything to do we would stay open an hour longer). 

 

I cant pinpoint when GW started moving away from the friendly face of the hobby, praising their stores for being welcoming 'hobby centers' tempting us in with tales and images of smiling friendly staff and happy customers stood around a table having a good old time. These days GW just feels like its a case of 'buy your damn minis and piss off, but after I have tried selling you three paint sets a box of Primaris even though we know you dont collect them'.

 

Just wondered what you guys and gals thought? 

 

[WrathOfTheLion]

Is there a difference between regions on this?

We have a few game tables at mine and regularly have all sorts of stuff like Kill Team, 40k, AoS, HH, Necromunda, Blood Bowl, etc.

They usually don't want you playing 3k games because they gum up a board forever, but that's basic courtesy.

This is in the US, though.

[Redcomet]

They have game nights at the store in Copenhagen. They are playing narrative 40k today.

The staff there are as friendly as they have been for years, even though they change regularly. They leave you alone when you browse and will chat when they have the time. Never ever felt forced to buy something.

Edit: not surprised seeing this thread from the OP who tends not to view anything GW positively.

Edited October 2, 2022 by Redcomet

[Noserenda]

Might be local or recent? I know vets night got mentioned to me by an old buddy in my local store not too long ago. That said, even yeeeears ago GW was generally wanting to shift people from regular store gaming to local clubs wherever possible as part of the pipeline that centrered stores as recruitment bases primarily, if nothing else because there was never enough room in the typical GW store! 

[WrathOfTheLion]

In the US as well, there's a store-based AoS tournament that should be starting in three or so weeks, and a Kill Team one somewhere in there. The 40k tournament just ended, as did the Warcry one a month or so ago. I believe every store in the US is running these campaigns, not sure if the other regions are.

So they've been running in-store game events like that basically the second half of this year.

Edited October 2, 2022 by WrathOfTheLion
added warcry tournament

[Marshal Mittens]

My local store stopped games through COVID bit now people can play there again. I was that there like a month ago and there was both 40k and AoS being played. 

[Khornestar]

It’s been 4 years or so since I’ve played at a GW/Warhammer store, but in the years before that, at more than one location there were 3 tables used for gaming. As time went on, they made one exclusively a display table for the 40k, WFB, and then AoS starters. The other 2 tables were always available in some fashion for gaming. I’d heard things like they limited games to smaller point limits to keep things moving. Not a current assessment, so of limited value, but I haven’t heard anything about ending in store gaming from those that still work/play at GW stores.

[sarabando]

northern exile whining vid ...non shocker. 

 

You couldnt pay me to go back into  a GW these days. I walked past mine yesterday and got a fragrant blast from the past that made me gag. 

[Slave to Darkness]

May just be a UK thing then, I think the guy in the video is from up north. But a lot of the comments on the video are from people in America and they are saying pretty much the same thing, thats why I bought it up here, generally get a better idea of what the community thinks as opposed to 'angry youtube comments'.

 

As for me not seeing anything GW does as positive, I do actually, but Ill praise them when they do something right. I LOVE Necromunda, best game they have made and Ill die on that hill, but I dont like the way they release updates (Ash Wastes having the vehicle rules in another book after release when they made it out to be a game of Mad Max style mayhem), I love 40k but dont agree with the power creep followed by a nerf then more creep, with more updates and faq's layered on top (and the thread on how to fix 10th shows Im not alone here).

Hell Im super hyped for the return of the Old World, but as this is a 40k forum you wont see that, but as soon as we get actual Warhammer Fantasy back Im throwing every penny I have at GW, because bringing back a game they should never have killed off is behaviour I will praise them for, and Ill shower them in riches because of it. Im excited for World Eaters and Guard (I wont lie though, I am concerned about the rumors surrounding the Guard dex, I dont want to be ripping arms off minis I have literally just built so Im kinda in hobby limbo atm until we have something more concrete). Just because I dont agree with how GW operates as a business doesnt mean Im anti GW. And this post isnt GW bashing, as I have said its not something I have witnessed (doesnt help my local is always dead, you would be lucky to see a customer in there these days) so I thought Id see what you guys thought on the matter. I fail to see how thats negative in any way. 

[Bryan Blaire]

The local GW near me encourages active gaming and is running narrative strings of games for people (not quite a Kill Team campaign, not quite Crusade, guess it’s something he made up, but tracks in-store) and has been asking folks (including me, even though he knows I live a ways out from them) to come in and play - the store is active to busy most every day that I can tell, at least after work when I typically drop in (could be seasonal, but I haven’t noticed too much variation).  When I was there last a couple weeks ago, there was a dad clearly not interested in gaming himself waiting while his son played with one of the teenage locals.  The manager is also building even more battlefield terrain for both 40K and AoS.  He’s also prepping for a store Secret Santa exchange, and wants to have a paint-and-play with the stuff you get from it in store (he was encouraging Kill Team style Secret Santa lists, so you could game the week after the exchange).

No constant whiffs of BO in scent range at this store either - it’s usually only a single person at a time with that kind of funk that I’ve been able to observe, so I guess there’s some luck involved there.

Sorry SlaveToDarkness, I don’t think that the vid referenced is actually for all GWs…

Edited October 2, 2022 by Bryan Blaire

[Morovir]

From the UK here, both my previous local GW (up north) and my current one (down south) have been perfectly happy with gaming, always at least a couple tables free for people (unless there's a specific thing on), so I'm genuinely surprised to hear that.

[Slave to Darkness]

9 minutes ago, sarabando said:

northern exile whining vid ...non shocker. 

 

You couldnt pay me to go back into  a GW these days. I walked past mine yesterday and got a fragrant blast from the past that made me gag. 

Never come across him before so no idea what his usual stuff is like? Only youtubers I really follow are people that post here, Auspex Tactics, Mordian Glory, our lord and saviour Val himself, Jubulant Rich (M@l!ce) and a couple of non Frater like Discourse Miniatures (shes posted some very anti GW content yet people seem to love her), Modelling for Advantage and Guerrilla Miniature Games (Ash is such a nice guy, totally wholesome chap and a credit to the community).

 

As for the 'GW fragrance' (that should be a can of Lynx spray for those people that prefer fedoras to women) I could literally taste it in the back of my throat reading your comment.

[Slave to Darkness]

13 minutes ago, Bryan Blaire said:

 

Sorry SlaveToDarkness, I don’t think that the vid referenced is actually for all GWs…

Aye thats fair, like I said this is something I have just come across and wondered if it was something isolated or a wider issue. Again hard to judge where I am because the shops always dead anyway, not entirely sure how they are managing to stay open. 

 

Just to reiterate again, I never posted this to start an anti GW flame war, was curious to see whats going on generally.

 

++EDIT++

 

For the stores that are not having games, think its just the managers in general that is the issue and not GW themselves?

I wont go into all the reasons why my GW is dead, I have been asked not to mention it again as some of it is off topic as it doesnt involve the hobby or the store so Ill not mention that but a lot of the managers behaviour and general attitude to old customers in the store has pushed a lot of old faces away (hell as soon as I joined B&C and said where I was from Frater had digs about the manager, they are very well known in the area and very disliked across every store they have worked at) unfortunately though I live in a small town full of junkies and chavs, I dont think there is enough normal people here to bring into the hobby. All the new lot were kids or relatives of the old crowd who have now gone, and the younglings went with them.   I did hear that the manager was anti 'gamers gaming', cant say if this is accurate as I had stopped going in by then, but maybe they need to actually let people play there if thats the case, just to get some customers in. 

Edited October 2, 2022 by Slave to Darkness

[Joe]

Whether or not stores allow non-intro gaming is left up to the individual stores, it's not a policy decision set by the company. Given how many stores are one-man operations now, and how many rules they'd have to keep up with to cover every system Games Workshop produces as of 2022, you can't exactly blame managers for just saying no as a blanket rule. 

Generally speaking, I'd recommend people ask their store managers directly, rather than relying on random Youtubers who are out to make a quick buck.

EDIT: I should also stress that like, store space is a major issue as well. Those of us who live in the UK are well aware of the extortionate prices that landlords who've never stepped foot in the town your Games Workshop / Warhammer store is in charge these days, which often pushes the stores to smaller locations, as close to the town / city centre as possible. There is an element of cost-saving as well, particularly given the stores are far from being the main revenue source for the company.

Edited October 2, 2022 by Joe

[duz_]

I just went to the local GW yesterday. The store is tiny only 2x 4x4 gaming tables and a larger painting station. 

The store was packed easily 20 people in there playing both 40k and AOS and hobbying. 

The other local GW regular hosts events too. 

Could be a regional thing but definitely not what I'm seeing in Colorado currently. 

[Slave to Darkness]

16 minutes ago, Joe said:

 

Generally speaking, I'd recommend people ask their store managers directly, rather than relying on random Youtubers who are out to make a quick buck.

 

Thats why I mentioned it here, I am getting a better idea whats going on here than whats said on youtube, a lot of the comments are 'Im in the USA and I cant play'... Yet those from 'Murica here are saying the opposite. 

 

Also why I titled the thread as a question not a fact. Some people seem to be missing that though. 

[sarabando]

as an angry youtuber myself :D (breakfastwithbando) its pretty easy to settle into the bashing GW rut. IF GW want to kill vet games at their stores thats their choice in my opinion its the wrong one as ive been in the hobby for nearly 30 years and vets nights were one of the things that pushed me into different parts of the hobby. vets playing WFB got me to buy a Vampire counts army, vets playing a 40k in 40 mins campaign got me to start a brand new marine army (preheresy EC), same with wanting to try WHFRP, 30k, necromunda, everything

[N1SB]

Brothers, it's late here, but I really want to give the big picture here.  This video Brother StD shared is very meaningful:

• The commentator clearly knows what he's talking about, KPI on Recruitment, but Revenue comes 1st

Everyone managing anything knows this kung fu.  Your ONLY priority is customer satisfaction...DELIGHT THEM...until someone asks how you're meeting your sales quota.  Then suddenly you see this kung fu is like pro-wrestling, everyone knows it's fake.  I believe this commentator.

• His down-to-grassroots take is very valuable.  Anecdotes are real...they're just limited to his experiences

I'm hearing many of you ask, "Wait...is this a local thing?  They're playing games in my locale!"  I 100% agree with you.

Example - I was just in my local Warhammer Store here in Hong Kong like 4 hours ago.  Our Redshirt is organising a Badab War Narrative Play Crusade.  That could just be his own initiative, right?  Except he got this care package with pre-printed rosters, premiums, prizes, posters that looks like GW Corporate made.

You don't have these pre-fab care packages ready if you don't want to incentivise that behaviour.  So I think, yes, it's a local thing, or rather...

 

 It's a Locale Thing 

What I've learned here on B&C is different regions have very different metas.  They have different metas because they have different customers.

This commentator sounds like he's from North England.  England is obviously the birthplace of Warhammer.  Warhammer Stores were ubiquitous since the '90s; before mobile phones, when one of my friend's mothers needed to find her son, she'd call the Warhammer Store to tell him to come home for dinner.  So it's literally the oldest market, which means you have the longest-served customer base, almost certainly the average age is higher than all other regions, collections probably on average bigger than any others.  Middle-aged players in 3,000 point games?  That sounds about right.  But I don't believe in discriminating against people on age and 3,000 point games just means they're REALLY good customers, so I stand with the commentator, but familiarity breeds contempt a little, y'know?

Compare that to Japan, Asia is one of the areas GW really wants to grow.  Space Marine Heroes, recently re-released, was originally created for Japan.  I have the original Series 1, Series 2 and Series 3.  Each has a little card insert of Warhammer Stores in Japan with their addresses, facebook pages, etc.:

Series 1 there were 4 stores in Japan, all in Tokyo.  Series 2 showed 5 stores.  By the time you got to Series 3, there were 8 Stores.  This is clearly a young market for Warhammer, going through like an adolescent growth spurt.  Do you think they have the same in-store gaming policy as in Northern England?  Or do you think they'd encourage more local players despite the high cost of rent in Japanese cities, as the best way to advertise?  Do you think the average Japanese player would look like the average English player?

(Tbh I don't know about Japan.  What I do know is Hong Kong rent is even more expensive, and our Redshirt loves it when I play Aeronautica Imperialis there, then he takes photos and posts them in their facebook page and in the WhatsApp chat group as a form of advertising.  So clearly there's no end to in-store gaming here.)

We looked at one country compared to another, they clearly have different outlooks, but let's put some Mathhammer to weigh it.

 

 Operating Expenses a.k.a. Points Cost of GW 

GW has a crazy cost structure.  It is very relevant here.

I've shown this before and it's from last year (haven't had time to update yet, been building/painting), but it's still relevant.  It's from their financial annual report BUT do not think about that, think instead that is an army list of GW, and we are looking at how they distribute their points across different units:

Retail is Warhammer Stores, which makes up 47% of GW's operating costs.  If GW was a 2,000 point army, Warhammer Stores make up just under 1,000 points.

To compare, what we actually buy/want/care about are miniatures and games.  Everything from the plastic to make the miniatures, the designers to sculpt them, the game developers to give us something to use the miniatures with, the staff to run the plastic injection mold machines (but not including the actual equipment prices, those are listed somewhere else as assets), is 2%...or 40 points in a 2,000 point army.  It's crazy.

When you have 1,000 points sunk into a specific unit in your army, you don't just have them kill Nurglings.  You send them against the biggest, most valuable, most strategically important target in your opponent's army.

And sometimes with a unit like that you know you get a little too greedy, a little too ambitious?  You really want to earn the points back and you forget to play the objectives?  I think that's what's happening in that commentary.

This commentator mentioned the Head of Retail giving a very cynical view...that's us when we're worried half the points in our army aren't used properly.  I think they have different approaches in different countries in order to make the best use of that.

(Whereas you completely screwed up your balance with NuSquats in the recent release...well, that's like when you don't know what to do with a 40 points unit, it's embarrassing, now you're recalling him to a better position, but you don't sweat him the same way you do with your 1,000 point unit.)

This is the big picture.  Seeing this like a Warhammer army, you can see what the Head of Retail's head is at, even if you disagree with him...especially if you disagree with him.  Even the commentator seems to understand where he's coming from.

I haven't formed an opinion yet, but I write this post because this video was great in presenting a personal, fly-on-the-wall take, there's nothing more I could add in that aspect, but I wanted to fill in on the macroscopic take.  I think you need both views for something like this.

[sarabando]

you make alot of good points in the above post, GWs retail base is imo part of its marketing too, until recently you dimply didnt see warhammer marketing except maybe 2-3 awful tv ads. but EVERYONE in the uk knew about warhammer either because they knew some one who played or they knew some one who made fun of some one who played XD several mainstream comedians regularly make fun of it. A GW store is a cultural icon of the UK imo XD 

[Valkia the Bloody]

My local GW store just had a 40k tournament last week and has now started a new narrative campaign over the autumn and winter months.

They are very active on Facebook and had multiple posts "One of our players dropped out of the tournament, will YOU step up?"

That kind do thing.

So my report from rural Germany is- games at the store are still going on.

[Dont-Be-Haten]

Mostly skirmish based games at my local GW store. Easier to get people in playing Warcry and Necromunda than bigger games. They also frequently host kill team and 1k point events.

They have an all vs death event coming up the weekend before Halloween. Its like 10-15k of realm of death versus everyone else. Held it for the last couple years, always a good time.

[Lord_Ikka]

My local GW has prople playing there whenever I go in. It is rare that I go there, because there are two FLGS closer to me that I will play at, but I've gone into the GW store for exclusive minis, hard to find stuff, or random stuff if I'm in the area. Never not seen it have people playing or painting, and the manager has always been pleasant.

This is in Northern CO, USA.

[Inquisitor_Lensoven]

6 hours ago, Slave to Darkness said:

I have just seen this video about GW not allowing games in store these days. I dont use the local GW so its not something I have seen (or not seen in this case) first hand. 

I understand its not a good look for the store/hobby as a whole having a ton of unwashed neckbeards screaming at each other all day scaring (potential) paying customers and new recruits away, but when I was GW staff the store tables were intended for intro games all week except games nights (every thursday back in those days) when the store stayed open a few hours later and 'vets' could play from 4pm till close (usually 8-9pm depending on how soon the poor staff member working that late wants to go home, 8 was the actual close but if we didnt have anything to do we would stay open an hour longer). 

 

I cant pinpoint when GW started moving away from the friendly face of the hobby, praising their stores for being welcoming 'hobby centers' tempting us in with tales and images of smiling friendly staff and happy customers stood around a table having a good old time. These days GW just feels like its a case of 'buy your damn minis and piss off, but after I have tried selling you three paint sets a box of Primaris even though we know you dont collect them'.

 

Just wondered what you guys and gals thought? 

 

Imho GW is significantly more hostile towards their player base when compared to the early 00s and before.

as a result this just seems 100% in line with the path GW has been on.

[Valkia the Bloody]

I have to say, in my 25 years of hobby experience, I never experienced any GW store staff being "hostile" towards me. And I visited a lot of stores in 6 different countries so far.

The most "hostile" move that was made towards me was trying to force me into buying "Sister of Battle" stuff. As in annoyingly trying to shove it into my face.

Until I made quite clear I was a Chaos type of person and the only way a Battle Sister was going to enter my painting table was as victims of the Blood God.

[N1SB]

You guys raise some excellent points I fully agree with.  After some sleep, something from the video's been stuck in my cog.

 

 GW Stores Were Its Marketing 

The weird pie chart with half its costs on Warhammer Stores works for them, because they were GW's main marketing arm.

Brother Sarabando's absolutely right.  There are other companies with stores that sell exclusively their own products like fashion brands.  If I were to look at their Operating Expenses, I would absolutely expect to see 1/3rd of their costs completely associated with advertising, then a bit more on their High Street retail stores.  That's about what GW's cost structure looks like, they just categorise stuff differently.

But things have changed.  Warhammer Community, their Preview events, etc., like the one we're looking forward to this weekend, are now part of GW's marketing mix.  Are Warhammer Stores still an important part of its marketing?  Well, imho, the answer is...

 

 Yes!  GW Stores ARE STILL Its Marketing 

...of course it is!  Let me tell you a real typical situation, happens everywhere.

Marketing team in a company does its sales forecast.  Forecast looks good.  Big Boss Man says, "That looks real good, we're going to meet our targets...so why don't you cut out this marketing expense, we'll save on cashflow and we'll still be alright."  Marketing team says, "Nononono, we can't.  Our forecast was based on all our marketing initiatives going forward, part of the mix, you can't just remove one thing and expect things to go on like that."

In Warhammer terms, you got an army that's pretty effective, but you're looking to move some points around, to give your Sergeant-types upgrades or whatever.  There's a Lieutenant/re-roll Wound rolls guy, single unit, moderate points cost, taking him away with give you a nice block of points, but you KNOW his buff was part of why your army's working.  You take him away, things start falling apart, the centre will not hold.

But if I was unclear, I wasn't downplaying Warhammer Stores anywhere.  I'm saying they're going to look different...as well they should.  Just as when you're younger, you liked certain armies, but as you grew older, you matured, you build/paint/play differently.

Part of that Warhammer Store experience has to be people actually playing there.  They're the best live demo.

What hasn't changed.  As I said with our meta, our local Warhammer Store, it's still the BEST marketing engine GW has.

I'll tell you where my gears were grinding with this video.  It's that off-site training with the GW Head of Retail.

 

 How do 30 y/o's w/ 3,000 pts get new customers? 

I seldom get mad at people.  I get mad at situations.  I realise now I was getting pretty mad at this situation.

The commentator, as a Warhammer Store manager, described a typical off-site hotel conference room training with the GW Head of Retail, his boss's boss, etc.  He paraphrased the Head of Retail's seemingly rhetorical question, how do 30 year-old's playing 3,000 points "recruit" new customers?  I understand this was in a meeting, Big Boss Man was laying down the company line, the problem with that is it's a ridiculously easy question to answer:

Those 30 year-olds can be the best free marketing money can't buy.  It's visualisation.  We sell the vision of Warhammer.

In fact, they're paying money to do GW's marketing.  And I'll do one better, if I were to speak to this Head of Retail as his team:

30 year-olds with 3,000 points of 30k: Age of Darkness The Horus Heresy live demo!  New customers visualise they can play this.

TWO boxsets of AoD, ON DISPLAY.  Whole lotta Legionnaires, 2 Spartan Land Raiders a side, 2 Contemptor Dreads, 20 Terminators!

TWO boxsets that I sold, TO them, for YOU.  TWO rulebooks, they only need one each, they give the other to a friend, recruit for YOU.

So it's a 3,000 point game?  After 2,000 you can get Lords of War, TWO Primarch Series Miniatures, another £100+ a side in YOUR P&L.

Those new 30k Legion-specific Heads & Shoulders?  At least a set on each side, I'd sell them that they could use them on their Sergeants, an easy way to represent them in 2+ save Artificer Armour.  New customer walks in, notices just that difference, "Hey, how come these guys are fancier?"  ICEBREAKER.

If they're playing in my store, I'd follow the old school Battle Ready paintjob rules, so if they go on my table they at least got 3 colours on.  30 year-olds with at least 10 years' painting experience each, by that time you'd at least know to do Two Thin Coats, or more likely Zenithal basecoat with your new Contrast paints that allow veterans to speedpaint and REMOVES that barrier-to-entry for new players with their ease of use.  So now I'm selling YOUR paints.

New customer thinks it's too many minis, since he doesn't know how to paint?  Can he read?  Why not just pick up one of the 60-odd Horus Heresy novel series, NEW YORK TIMES BESTSELLERS!  You ever heard of Dan Abnett?  No?  Ever heard of the Marvel film Guardians of the Galaxy?  He wrote the comic that's based on.

Now look at the cover of that Horus Heresy novel, all that hot Marine-On-Marine Action.  Now turn back to the 30 year-olds' table.  Look familiar?  They're Living the Dream!  They are literally PLAYING THAT HORUS HERESY NOVEL COVER: THE GAME: THE HOBBY.  I don't sell miniatures...I sell A Hobby.

So would you like the novel?  Or are you interested in Kill Team?  Sorry, I'll stop with the questions, just one last one: Cash or Credit?

All the Ps of Marketing in this 3,000 points game.  Product, Place, Promotion, Peer-to-Peer, Proof, Physical Evidence, I can tell these 2 bros to swing more of their Marketing PPs if you want.  You want to ask ME how those 30 year-olds sell to new customers?  Do you really know what you're asking?

I ASK YOU, GW HEAD OF RETAIL, HOW DO THESE 30 YEAR-OLDS NOT SELL TO NEW CUSTOMERS?

None of this contradicts what the commentator said, in fact, his point is precisely to find "the right" 30 year-olds.  I think he'd agree.

But my point is, a 30-something guy, still passionate about The Hobby, proves he's "the right" guy by stepping through the door.

Even if they find us annoying...Brothers, Sororitas, let's face it, we can be pretty annoying...even objectively, as a Product Management type that I am, I would see Warhammer players as the ultimate free resource.  Actually, Warhammer Stores might not be the best marketing tool, the players there are.

It's not the semantics of it, it's the sentiment.  We all complain about customers behind closed doors, but that toxic resentment.  Man!

 

 The Unspoken Like That Must Be Towed 

The other unspoken line that GW must tow, it's implicit, never explicit, about the whole Recruit, Recruit, Recruit thing.

The world's not just Warhammer Stores.  Friendly Local Gaming Stores exist, an INTEGRAL part of the same GW marketing ecosystem.

The commentator, a Warhammer Store manager, kept on referring to a party line that remains unspoken.  There's a bit of that here.

There's like a pact.  GW will operate its own Warhammer Stores yet encourage FLGSs, what it calls its Trade channel.  To keep the peace...

...GW promises it'll Recruit, Recruit, Recruit, then send those already-trained up customers to the FLGSs.  Like gangs dividing up turf.

You know video games?  I can tell you with insider knowledge Microsoft Xbox guys and Sony Playstation guys respect, cherish and LOVE Nintendo.  Nintendo teaches whole generations of kids how to play video games with Mario, so then they grow up to play Halo and whatever Playstation exclusives are these days.  Technically, they're competitors in some marketing 101 class, but you see how it's more complex than that?

Even with that in mind, I really dislike that 30 year-olds question.  You gotta really hate your own fellow Hobbyists to even ask that.