Choosing a 3D Printer

[Evil Eye]

As you may have noticed from the large amount of posts I've made on the subject, 3D printing is something I'm very interested in. I'm intending to get myself a printer, and had set my heart on an Elegoo Saturn, which looked to be very good and cost about £500.

However, things have gotten a little complicated, as now there is also the Saturn S and Saturn 2 available! The Saturn S costs a bit less than the Saturn originally did but seems to have better performance and a bigger screen. Meanwhile the Saturn 2 costs about £620 (eek!) but is bigger AGAIN and also has an 8K screen. That being said, the original Saturn is still a fine piece of kit and is now down to just over £300, which is extremely affordable.

So the question is- do I follow my original saving goals but buy the S instead? Go for the original Saturn and save some money? Or save further for the absolute unit that is the Saturn 2?

[Grotsmasha]

Just as I recommend NOBODY buys a new car as their 1st car, I'd recommend sticking to your guns, and getting the 300 Saturn as your first printer. The reason for this is EVERYBODY makes mistakes, and it's quite likely you'll damage the screen (maybe irrepairably, maybe not). I'd recommend getting one of the 2-in-1 Wash and Cure stations and keeping that extra for ~3-6months while you get used to everything.

[Evil Eye]

Thanks! That makes an awful lot of sense actually. Also, with the way 3D print tech has advanced, I suppose even a "yesterday's model" printer is capable of superb results that are more than adequate for just about anything I'd want. Yeah, might very well go that route then.

[Bung]

I printed BFG stuff on an Anycubic Mono with 2k Screen and it was better than the old GW plastics.

In my eyes a 4k Screen gives you a good resolution for Warhammer sized Models.

Personly i would suggest a smaller printer like the Mars as learning experience.

 

 

 

[Evil Eye]

I had considered a Mars, but I feel like the added screen size is worth the money- especially as I have some plans to print some quite large models in the future. But thanks for the advice regardless! From what I've seen 8K seems like an extravagance.

[Bung]

Alot of the bigger files are cut down to fit on smaller build plates the size of the Mars or Anycubic Mono. They may need a few build plates but can be printed without problems.

As long as you dont want to print something like Superheavies and Titans or 30+ Infantry Models at the same time you dont really need a Saturn or Mono X.

I know the designer of this tank (Macharius alternative) slices his files to fit on 5 build plates on an Anycubic Mono as example

https://cults3d.com/de/modell-3d/spiel/lupercal-super-heavy-tank

[Slave to Darkness]

Sorry to hijack the thread, but for someone looking into purchasing a second hand printer is there anything potential customers should look out for? Im not the biggest fan of buying pre owned electronics but I cant afford to buy new and I dont think people want pictures of my hairy hobbit feet. I dont wanna be the wargaming version of the dude who buys a car as seen without checking to see if it has the engine. 

[Bung]

1 hour ago, Slave to Darkness said:

Sorry to hijack the thread, but for someone looking into purchasing a second hand printer is there anything potential customers should look out for? Im not the biggest fan of buying pre owned electronics but I cant afford to buy new and I dont think people want pictures of my hairy hobbit feet. I dont wanna be the wargaming version of the dude who buys a car as seen without checking to see if it has the engine. 

 

The UV screen is important. If you need to change it you can buy a new printer probably for the combined cost of the used printer and newcUV Screen.

[Doghouse]

I have a Saturn and it's great, I've printed truescale rhinos on mine in one piece. I'm like a kid at Christmas setting prints to run overnight and getting to check how they went.

I'm tempted to get the 8k because the prints I have seen massively better. I saw one I mistook for a plastic model.

I found printing extremely daunting at first but it's so simple once you get into it. Youtube videos are extremely useful and really do help.

 

 

[OttoVonAwesome]

I went all out for the Mars 3 and the prints that come outta there are just amazing, If I were you I would get the 8k Saturn if the build plate size is important to you and you'll be printing large models. AS for used 3d printers I'd never buy one unless it's like been used once, the screens burn out after while and that's not something you wanna be dealing with right away.

[Grotsmasha]

8 hours ago, Slave to Darkness said:

Sorry to hijack the thread, but for someone looking into purchasing a second hand printer is there anything potential customers should look out for? Im not the biggest fan of buying pre owned electronics but I cant afford to buy new and I dont think people want pictures of my hairy hobbit feet. I dont wanna be the wargaming version of the dude who buys a car as seen without checking to see if it has the engine. 

54 minutes ago, OttoVonAwesome said:

I went all out for the Mars 3 and the prints that come outta there are just amazing, If I were you I would get the 8k Saturn if the build plate size is important to you and you'll be printing large models. AS for used 3d printers I'd never buy one unless it's like been used once, the screens burn out after while and that's not something you wanna be dealing with right away.

 

The screen is the most important thing, you'd want to check for scratches and dead pixels. They do wear out, but it's like a 1000hrs of printing, it's so long that most will upgrade before they hit close to that number.

Personally, I'd recommend NOT getting a second hand printer unless it's providence is known, ie. a friend is upgrading, or the person is willing to spend some time and print something, preferably a bunch of small stuff covering all/most of the build surface, in advenace for you to look at once you arrive before the purchase.

[sarabando]

id avoid an 8k printer as while the quality is fantastic realistically its not much more than what you can get with a dialed in 4k. 

 

I would recommend starting with a smaller like a Elgoo Mars, more spares, cheaper, takes up less space etc and its a smaller investment incase you dont get on with it. 

[Arkhanist]

8k vs 4k vs 2k is a touch misleading as a sales tactic (moar pixels!), as it also depends on screen *size* as to the impact. The more important number - which is less well published - is the pixel size, measured in microns, or 1/1000 of a mm.

A resin 3d printer has 3 axes; X and Y, which are the LCD screen that lies under the vat, and the Z axis that is the up-n-down arm.

the way a printer works is basically it prints *lots* of thin layers stacked on top of each other, with the Z axis resolution being the thickness of the layers, and the X/Y axis being made up of the pixels on the LCD screen. The Z axis goes down to 10 micron on any vaguely modern printer, so higher resolution that you'll likely ever need, so it's only the x/y resolution that is generally the one to look out for. The reason this matters is the layers make up an effectively a pixelised version of the model - and it can't effectively print detail any smaller than the physical pixel dimensions. So if printing a curved surface, you get this, and the same applies to flat surfaces printed at an angle; a 'stair step effect'.

The smaller the pixel size, the smaller the steps and the less visible the effect, and the sharper the possible details can be.

Note most slicer software can use anti-aliasing to mask this effect (making the detail less sharp, but smoother surfaces), and given you're curing a liquid, it tends to be be a little bit blobby at the sub-pixel edges anyway, so it mostly shows up on flattish surfaces printed close to horizontal or vertical (kneepads and tops of bald heads!) where it's pretty easily sanded off with fine-grade sanding sticks or the like (same as you use for smoothing plastic models). When people say GW models have been 3d printed (early masters for the photography etc), this is the effect they spot, where GW haven't bothered to smooth em off.

Anyway, moving on.

50 micron is the resolution of the printers from a couple of years ago. So mars 2, original saturn etc. However, because the saturn has a bigger physical screen (so can print more/bigger things at once) the resolution is 3840 x 2400, vs the 2560 x 1620 LCD in the mars 2; but the individual pixel size, and thus print quality, is the same for both. There's nothing wrong with 50 micron pixels; the quality is still at a good level, and I'm still pretty happy with my 50 micron mars 2 with moderate AA - it's basically plastic model quality, once you sand off any minor incidences of layer lines. I wouldn't want to go with an older, bigger pixel resolution than this though.

The Saturn S has a slightly bigger screen, and a very slight pixel size reduction to 48 micron; no difference you'll be able to actually see. But it's got air filters and a few small refinements; so depends on price, if they're very close go for the S, otherwise, not really worth it.

The next gen improved resolution to 35-40 micron screens, and this is a small visible difference in quality - models are definitely sharper detailed prints, but you do kinda have to compare a 50 micron and a 35 micron print to really see the difference. The Mars 3 is 35 micron; if you're coming from a very old printer, or buying fresh, I'd aim at this level of pixel size if you can; the difference isn't huge by any means, but given the 35 micron printers are now entry-level, it's not generally an expensive upgrade. (a printer screen can be replaced if cracked or scratched, they're not super expensive, but fitting a different resolution one is not practical to do due to firmware etc, so the resolution is basically fixed for the life of the printer)

The latest gen are even smaller pixels, and finer detail still; the saturn 2 is 28 micron, and the sonic mini 8k is 22 micron. This is about the size that's impossible to distinguish any smaller than with the naked eye, and has caught up with far more expensive industrial printers. The big advantage is you often don't need anti-aliasing any more, which definitely helps improve detail visibly. So maximum model quality, as 4x 25 micron pixels fit in the space one 50 micron pixel does, and gives sharper detail than you can often do from conventional casting methods! But given the price premium currently, the difference to a 35 micron screen probably isn't worth it right now unless you have big pockets or are a *big* stickler for detail. In a year or two though, 25 micron will be the new entry-level standard, and printer makers will probably have to find something other than resolution to improve (and that's when I'll upgrade!)

So ignore the 2k/4k/8k thing, and look for the pixel size in reviews (such as on all3dp). 35 micron is a decent target, 50 micron if you're on a budget, 25 micron or so if you've money to burn.

You also have to consider build area; you might be able to get a bigger printer, but that may mean bigger pixels to be at a reasonable price. Personally, I've found no need for a larger size printer (painting speed is my limiting factor, not amount I can print!), but if you want to print big display busts or entire tanks in one go on a regular basis, it may well be worth it and you don't mind say, dropping to 50 micron quality to achieve it at a reasonable price.

Also if you want to print terrain pieces, but that gets pretty expensive and isn't super robust, so you're probably still better off using a cheap additive printer (lower detail hot melted plastic goo) for that.

 

 

Edited October 4, 2022 by Arkhanist

[Moonstalker]

The only advice I can give is don't blow your whole wad on the printer.  There is a ton of ancillary support stuff that you need/want for resin printing, and the costs can add up quickly.  The first and most necessary, as mentioned, is a wash and cure station, but PPE to protect yourself from uncured resin (it is toxic), tools for removing supports, consumables (iso alcohol and resin), replacement screens or film for the inevitable oops/damage/wear, stuff like that.  But also make sure you have a suitable area for the printer to live - your computer desk will not make you happy.  It needs ventilation (lots of fumes), a stable/sturdy table, and preferably some kind of drip pan that the printer and wash station can live in, with enough space to also work around (like setting a jug of resin down in the drip pan before you open it, and containing any possible spilling while you're refilling the printer).  Spilling resin is not good, spilling resin and having it run off the table and into your carpet is really not good.

[Arkhanist]

Ooh yes, definitely something to protect your work surface - drips and small spills are pretty inevitable. Resin residue can be surprisingly sticky. You can get silicone 'slap mats' very cheaply with a little rim around the edge; one under the printer (or printer + wash station) and a 2nd to work on. Resin doesn't really stick to silicone, so you can either clean up with IPA, or put the mat outside briefly to cure in sunlight so any residue hardens and can just be shaken off. You will definitely need litres of IPA or other solvent (Methylated spirits is similar, and can be cheaper in some countries) for cleaning prints, and things like the vat if you're not going to be printing for a few days. I buy 5l every few months, and I'm not that heavy a printer. I've found blue shop towel to be an essential addon for cleanup of drips, wiping out the inside of the vat etc.

Liquid resin can cause allergic skin reactions (skin itching, peeling) so always wear disposable gloves at all times when handling it (nitrile or latex, whichever is fine for you) - and bear in mind when you have contaminated fingers what you touch, so keep those wipes handy! Once it's fully hardened and cleaned, it's safe enough to handle with bare hands. (like any resin, inhaling lots of fine dust is a bad idea if using e.g. a dremel on the finished model). Liquid resin is also toxic to marine life, so don't dispose of resin or contaminated IPA down the drain. I put my waste (supports, used gloves and towels) in a clear plastic bag, then when it fills up I stick it outside for a bit to cure any that's still liquid, then it's safe enough to dispose of in normal rubbish - I just twist the bag shut to avoid any smell while it's filling up.

Different resins are different levels of stinky; I've found eco resins to be near odourless, but you do still need ventilation for any other offgassing.

[Moonstalker]

Liquid resin not only can cause reactions, but it is a sensitizing agent.  The more of it you are exposed to, the more likely you are to start having a reaction to it.  Just because you don't have a bad reaction the first time, or the second time, or the third time, does not mean you will not have a bad reaction the next time.  The safer you are with it, the better off you will be.  A plastic face shield and/or goggles (like you wore in chemistry class) is not overkill, you do NOT want any in your eyes.