Can a praetor with bitter duty have a retinue?

[Blight1]

So mostly this is for the bitter iron RoW.  So bitter duty says that a unit with this special rule can never be joined by any models without it.  Does buying a retinue count as joining the unit as defined on page 241?

It seems to say that joining a unit is done only in the movement phase and makes no mention of forming a unit at army creation.   Bitter duty also only specifically calls out legion apothecaries and techmarines which are assigned to units during deployment.

To add to this Dominion Zyphon has bitter duty and a warlord trait that states he can take some destroyers as a retinue but if he does he cannot take any other unit as a retinue squad implying that he can normally take the standard command squads.

Edited October 4, 2022 by Blight1

[Spagunk]

In my mind, the Zephon rule actually reinforces the implication that no, you cannot join a retinue that does not also have Bitter Duty.

My opinion is that just because the joining happens pre-game, doesn't mean it's not still there. In fact, Retinue is specifically stated as a deployment situation (I.E. retinue and HQ MUST be deployed together). So even though you are forced to join the two units, they're still joined for all intents and purposes albeit in a "You have no choice" manner.

If you go back to deployment rules, you have the option to join any HQ to a squad during deployment. It is still joining even if you aren't physically moving the HQ on the board as the joining happens prior to battle. No where does it say this isn't the case in the retinue rules. The rules only say you have no choice but to deploy the retinue with the chosen HQ. Bitter duty rules still kicks in because you cannot join the bitter duty unit to any other unit which do not have the bitter duty rule too. 

TL:DR My opinion is that bitter duty is still in effect for retinue squads.
 

 

[Blight1]

Why does his warlord trait reinforce that?  It says if he takes the destroyers as a retinue he cannot take any other unit as a retinue.  If bitter duty prevented him from taking a command squad there'd be no point in saying this.

So a retinue is considered the same unit as the character that takes it with the character as its leader.  A retinue is formed at army creation not at deployment like apothecaries.  Bitter duty says that any unit with a model with this special rule.  Wouldn't that imply a situation where a model within a unit can have the rule but not every model?

[Spagunk]

1 hour ago, Blight1 said:

Why does his warlord trait reinforce that?  It says if he takes the destroyers as a retinue he cannot take any other unit as a retinue.  If bitter duty prevented him from taking a command squad there'd be no point in saying this.

So a retinue is considered the same unit as the character that takes it with the character as its leader.  A retinue is formed at army creation not at deployment like apothecaries.  Bitter duty says that any unit with a model with this special rule.  Wouldn't that imply a situation where a model within a unit can have the rule but not every model?

Don't get me wrong, I do see where you are coming from but I still think it's not how it was intended when they moved "lone killer" over to be Bitter Duty. Previously Moritats were specifically banned from joining any squad other than destroyers. Zephon was also equally banned in HH1.0. The move to being a USR made things weird but I believe the intention was to deny using any Bitter Duty model in any other squad other than ones which also have Bitter Duty.

The big wording issue from what I see is that an HQ is written as a single model unit that joins another unit. Conversely bitter duty is worded the other way around: a unit being joined by a model. Since a command squad retinue doesn't have the bitter duty rule, it is theoretically possible RAW that bitter duty is not considered since its a check from retinue to IC rather than a check from the IC to the retinue. So I do get where you going but I believe the intention was that bitter duty units can only be joined by other bitter duty units.

To be fair, the better way to have worded this is "may not Join or be Joined by any model..." but alas, that is not worded as such.

Regarding my comment, Zephon is specifically worded as an interaction where in this unit that has bitter duty can only join a destroyer retinue under certain circumstances. HH2.0 is supposed to be a permissive rule set where in if something is intended to happen, it is specifically worded. Because this interaction is not specifically called out, except through Zephon, his scenario is only really applicable to him rather than cart blanche permission to all other units.

And in all honestly, what other units have both Master of the Legion and Bitter Duty anyway? This is an honest question, I do not know what other HQ has this specific rules interaction.

 

[Blight1]

Any iron hands character in the bitter Iron RoW.

Someone said a DA character might have it or something similar once.