Chaos Lords are Worthless?

[Toldavf]

So I've been looking for reasons to field a chaos lord and the only one I can find is that they have good relic access. Melee wise a dark apostle is at least equivalent though in most cases is actually flat better.  I'm not mentioning either the disco lord or the Prince here because while they are better they pay a premium of points to be so. 

In terms of speed well a termy lord has warp strike (and is even slower after that), a deamon prince can fly and a disco lord is fast on his one, the chaos lord on the other hand is on his pegs or he has to catch the bus. The apostle is in the same boat here but he can do allot for the army while advancing Illusory supplication is great after all. 

Basically it feels to me that chaos lords don't fill a role in the army that isn't filled  by other choices that are much better. The reason for this I believe is that he lost options in this dex and in previous ones. No bike or jump pack access, no steeds heck you cant even have a combi weapon. Currently your options are a choice of 2 pistols and a melee weapon or 2 melee weapons (you have a choice of 6 here yay!)

 

There's just no real reason to take him. What do other people think?

[BrainFireBob]

I think the termie lord is OK- can take combis, go in with the lads- but generally agree. If Warlord Traits were Lord/Prince only, then maybe- but their niche was upgradeability. The Lord had *options*. Now, not so much- especially not with the Prince having the same aura. 

[Iron Father Ferrum]

The restrictions on foot speed isn't really an issue -- boards are so much smaller now, after all, so it's easy to get to the line of contact by Turn 2.

[Volgon]

I've been curious about this topic myself. I'm a much bigger fan of the mortal side of Chaos than daemons like Princes and Disco Lords so Chaos Lords in PA/TA are more appealing to me. Unfortunately Lucius seems to be the only mortal Lord that has seen real competitive use. It has been repeated before, but the competition in HQ slots really hampers a Lord's chances of making it into a list. 1 each of MoP + Dark Apostle is pretty stock, leaving one HQ slot left.

A Beatstick CL in PA running U'locc'a + Thunder Hammer and some combination of WLT + melee focused Legion traits (Hatred Incarnate WLT for all Legions, Black Legion for +1 to hit, Word Bearers Legion trait + Exalted Possession WLT) is extremely high damage for its cost. To me, Lords exist as this middle ground between pure beatstick (MoE) and beatstick with utility for a points premium (DP/Discolord). But competitively, it's better to lean into one or the other rather than trying to balance each side.

Princes/Discolords cost more and hit similarly hard as the above Lord, but also bring more options than just a re-roll 1s aura with Fly/base movement, psychic options, vehicle shenanigans, and just generally tougher statlines (minus the invuln I suppose). Then you have the humble Master of Executions who is going to do as much damage as a tricked out lord for around 50 points cheaper!

 

Edited October 5, 2022 by Volgon

[Toldavf]

16 hours ago, Iron Father Ferrum said:

The restrictions on foot speed isn't really an issue -- boards are so much smaller now, after all, so it's easy to get to the line of contact by Turn 2.

Kinda limits your options you can fight what is in front of you and whether or not you get the charge can be based on your movement. Generally the higher your movement the more likely you are to be able to be the one doing the charging and this can be critical.

It's been my experience that the faster the lord  the more rounds of combat he sees. There's less down time between fights which is huge. Also if you are flying you can ignore a screen which makes a difference at times.

In short being low movement and just a beat stick is bad. 

[Iron Father Ferrum]

But he's not just a beatstick.  He's also a buff-bot with that RR1s to hit aura.  So even if he himself isn't the one stabbing enemies, he can accompany Berzerkers or Legionaries into the midfield and provide an accuracy buff.

 

Look, I'm not saying that PA Lords are the new hotness in the tournament meta -- far from it.  My contention is simply that "worthless" is an incorrect assessment.

[Khornestar]

I wouldn’t say they’re worthless at all, but I would agree that the other HQ choices are always more appealing to me. Reroll 1’s to hit is really useful, less so for Word Bearers since they reroll all melee hits. Still, for shooting, those rerolls are generating more 6’s and thus many more hits over time.

Certainly not the most impressive option, but has his place. Terminator all day every day though. If I can’t jump around any more, might as well be a chainfist toting walking tank.

Edited October 6, 2022 by Khornestar

[Toldavf]

You would receive a better accuracy buff from the priest re-rolls though certainly they are a 2+ to cast but still. 

[tychobi]

Yep chaos lord's are bad from a competitive perspective. Slow, meh in combat, can't really take a punch, reroll aura that doesn't keep up with your melee threats and he's kinda pricey.  I can't think of a role for him that he is good at now that he can't find the jump pack or bike in his equipment locker. . . .He unlocks Cypher! He has a purpose! 

[DesuVult]

4 hours ago, Khornestar said:

I wouldn’t say they’re worthless at all, but I would agree that the other HQ choices are always more appealing to me. Reroll 1’s to hit is really useful, less so for Word Bearers since they reroll all melee hits. Still, for shooting, those rerolls are generating more 6’s and thus many more hits over time.

Certainly not the most impressive option, but has his place. Terminator all day every day though. If I can’t jump around any more, might as well be a chainfist toting walking tank.

There isn't much worthwhile to shoot with and most of what is worthwhile isn't core.

[techsoldaten]

Chaos Lords compete with other HQs, notably:

- Daemon Prince

- Lord Discordant

- Dark Apostle / Master of Possession

- Abaddon

Which one of these should a Chaos Lord replace?

[Relic]

Yes that is the issue - if you want a beat stick and re-roll 1's you take the D/Prince. If you want utility the DA/MoP are better. If you want pure violence, Lord Disco. 

You can tool a Chaos Lord to do work, but the argument against is that there is better platforms to do that in the book. In truth, you can make most characters in the book slap if you give them a warlord trait and relic! 

I am pondering/playing around with a simple bare bones 90pt lord for supporting some core units shooting, to go along with a MoP and DA. But it leaves a beatstick character hole in the list so smeh. 

 

 

[Toldavf]

5 hours ago, techsoldaten said:

Chaos Lords compete with other HQs, notably:

- Daemon Prince

- Lord Discordant

- Dark Apostle / Master of Possession

- Abaddon

Which one of these should a Chaos Lord replace?

I mean I don't take Abandon but yes point well made 

[Iron Father Ferrum]

21 hours ago, DesuVult said:

There isn't much worthwhile to shoot with and most of what is worthwhile isn't core.

Havocs.  Marching Terminators.  Dakka Legionaries.  Helbrutes.

[TrawlingCleaner]

I don't think they're useless, I do think generally there can be better options but it depends on your list and the setting.

If you're going for peak effiency in a tournament setting, Princes are likely to be a better fit.

Any other game I'd say a Lord is a good pick if you're going CORE heavy and don't have the points to get a DP in. Additionally, there are Relics that can only go on Terminator armour or on specific weapons that Lords get (RC's Terminator armour relic etc)

[Khornestar]

Must one pick the absolute “best” units in every game no matter what? Worthless I thought was intentional hyperbole.

Edited October 7, 2022 by Khornestar

[Relic]

3 hours ago, Khornestar said:

Must one pick the absolute “best” units in every game no matter what? Worthless I thought was intentional hyperbole.

Rule of cool for me - I am not winning any Majors this side of the Horus Heresy, albeit I do like to strike a balance between effectiveness and theme. I try to fit a Chaos Lord into my lists, because well...my warband is led by a Chaos Lord!

That said, there is arguably better options in the book and we are somewhat more defined by our character choices then other factions. I don't think taking a Chaos Lord though is going to doom a list to mediocrity! 

[Snazzy]

I have good experience with using a Black Legion Terminator Lord w/Veilbreaker Plate.  That allows him to teleport himself and another unit.  That unit then targets the closest unit in the shooting phase and get +1 to hit, rerolling 1s.  Also, because this move takes place in the Movement Phase, i can safely set up units on the board, instead of using Warp Strike.  This allows me to use anything in the Command Phase, like Merciless Overseer on the unit i'm going to teleport.  Terminator Sorc can also do this.  But, they are better served with different Relics IMO.

Also on the Black Legion front, i think the Chaos Lord is the only candidate for Ghorisvex's Teeth.

[Iron Father Ferrum]

38 minutes ago, Snazzy said:

Also on the Black Legion front, i think the Chaos Lord is the only candidate for Ghorisvex's Teeth.

 

Similarly, there's a chainsword relic for the Alpha Legion that lets one build a MW-engine when combined with Flames of Spite...and the foot Lord is the only HQ in the codex that can take a chainsword.

[Toldavf]

So improved Relic access then? and as for the rule of cool, if more options give more ways to play and are thus cooler to every part of the community regardless of how they want to play then options for jump packs, bikes ect should be brought back. 

A new Lord box with options would be great. 

[Iron Father Ferrum]

Honestly, it might not be far-fetched. We have a Lord...and a Lord Discordant...and now a Lord Invocatus.  What's next?  Lord Terminatus?  Lord Automatus?  The possibilities for new Chaos Lords are endless!

[MDops]

4 hours ago, Iron Father Ferrum said:

Honestly, it might not be far-fetched. We have a Lord...and a Lord Discordant...and now a Lord Invocatus.  What's next?  Lord Terminatus?  Lord Automatus?  The possibilities for new Chaos Lords are endless!

Don't forget Lord Expelliarmus.

I suppose with the loss of the jump pack, we have lost the cheap fast option for a HQ from the competitive selection which I think was the Lord's niche. There might have been a fear of a chaos version of the smash captain.

 

[Galron]

I think so. I cant think of a reason to use them at least with my current army. As I eventually shift over to my Emps Children again, maybe that will change at high points. Currently Priests and Masters of Possession are so much more valuable along with a Warpsmith in the back field boosting and repairing my Vindies and dreads. A simple beat stick character really doesnt add much to the army

[SanguinaryGuardsman]

On 10/6/2022 at 12:47 PM, techsoldaten said:

Chaos Lords compete with other HQs, notably:

- Daemon Prince

- Lord Discordant

- Dark Apostle / Master of Possession

- Abaddon

Which one of these should a Chaos Lord replace?

 

You could add the MoE on this list also.  Yeah hes not an HQ slot but he is a combat beatstick therefore he competes with Chaos Lords in any list that wants a beatstick.  The MoE is 20-30 points cheaper, hits harder, requires less CP investment to be scary.

[Dr_Ruminahui]

Master of Executions does need to take a relic to get an invulnerable save, though, and is considerably less survivable than a Chaos Lord unless you give the MoE one.  Not that it means that the Lord is necessarily better, but is a factor that should be taken into account.